USADA files doping charges against Lance
Comments
-
andrewjoseph wrote:I'm pretty sure a lot of Americans with cancer will care. That may not be a lot of people percentage wise, but it will be pretty devastating for people who are low already.
So, yes, given that us cycling fans are small percentage of total population, cancer victims and family may outnumber us.
Exactly, there will be a guy whos:
1. Had cancer and recovered
2. Lied and cheated to sporting victories and cashed in on that lie with prizes/endorsements, and all other ways of exploiting the fame.
3. Made millions of Dollars for himself out of cancer donations (not just from Livestrong the Charity, but from associating a commercial profit making brand with it).
and...
1. Made a mug of a lot of sporting fans
2. Made a mug of a lot of people supporting his charity
OR... he's innocent and none of the above apply at all
Of course, for one of the most famous sportsmen in the USA and Worldwide, all of the above won't amount to much of a story apart from 'another doping story', ...now, believe that and you really shouldnt apply for Mystic Meg's job if it becomes available.... the sport is only a part of the story, Ben Johnson, Marion Jones etc I can't remember having massive charities based on an illness that they profit from directly/indirectly.0 -
I'm not so sure. I'm pretty sure that cancer victims have a whole other set of prioritiesandrewjoseph wrote:I'm pretty sure a lot of Americans with cancer will care. That may not be a lot of people percentage wise, but it will be pretty devastating for people who are low already.
than worry about the trials and tribulations of a cyclist who doped. I'll grant you that they will know who he is and what he's doing for cancer and most likely are thankful for it but their concerns will mostly be with themselves and family. They will see it or read about it(if it happens - one way or another) then it's back to their own realities.0 -
dennisn wrote:
I'm not so sure. I'm pretty sure that cancer victims have a whole other set of prioritiesandrewjoseph wrote:I'm pretty sure a lot of Americans with cancer will care. That may not be a lot of people percentage wise, but it will be pretty devastating for people who are low already.
than worry about the trials and tribulations of a cyclist who doped. I'll grant you that they will know who he is and what he's doing for cancer and most likely are thankful for it but their concerns will mostly be with themselves and family. They will see it or read about it(if it happens - one way or another) then it's back to their own realities.
Yes, we'll all go back to our realities, we know that, same as after any news or event whether as small as dropping a Yoghurt on the floor to as big as surviving the Second World War.
My friend who had the same cancer as Lance finds the whole thing disgusting, Im sure most people know someone affected by cancer and they'll all find it all very distasteful too.
He's said he's done a lot of this in the name of Cancer. Let's see if Cancer sufferers are pleased with him for cheating in the name of cancer.
Anyway, doesn't matter.
Of course, LA might be innocent ( ) ...and, of course, the whole thing might not unfold to see him stripped and labelled. 0 -
nathancom wrote:So you are apathetic about anything beyond your daily personal life. So a sizeable proportion of the population is similarly apathetic. On this basis, the rest of us should also not care about anything that happens?
Personally, I think it is a good thing that cheats are not allowed to just sit back safe and I think a lot of people think likewise otherwise they wouldn't be excited by athletes like Usain Bolt who has shown the true limits of human sporting achievement. When I watch videos of Lance and Ullrich now they just look ridiculous going up mountains like on rocket fuel and it is hard to take it seriously.
And, there are very good reasons to think Armstrong in a scumbag, encouraging others to dope, the way he has tried to enforce the silence, buying off and corrupting further the UCI, hounding cyclists out of the sport whilst all the time hiding behind his charity. If you put your apathy aside for a moment (which isn't strong enough to stop you posting) and read up on him, it will be clear why so many dislike what he stands for.
Please explain to me how your life will change or be any different once this verdict(either way) comes in. Other than a hooray or a damn it what will change? Either way it turns out I see it as win / win for most of the angry people on here. If he's busted it should be like a big weight being lifted off of you, what with all that anger instantly gone. If he's cleared, well, sooner or later, hopefully sooner, you'll finally say to yourself or someone else will say it to you, "damn, I've got to quit beating myself up over this" and move on to raging about the next thing. Whatever that may be. Also not sure how Bolt is different. He runs faster and beats people like he's on rocket fuel. How can you take that seriously?0 -
Dennis, its very simple... a lot of people feel a sense of fairplay in sport and in life is a valuable thing, and people who abuse that for their own gain shouldn't be let off and ignored like it doesn't matter, because it does. If it wasn't the case we'd only haul people up for their actions if they cause physical hurt to someone else, but we hold people to account for all sorts of wrongdoings.
What I will concede is in the case of LA and Chums, out of those who know who he is, some will care, some won't. There will also be a lot of people who have heard of him, at least his name, and will read a story if it turns out he gets done and will think 'that's awful'.
Sport has a spirit about it, look at the Olympics, it will be nice if that fairplay and joy can be continually upheld by catching cheats and showing them for what they are.0 -
[dennisn]About 45 years ago I thought I cared and set off to follow in my fathers footsteps and help save the world. Didn't quite work out that way. quote]
erm setting your expectations a tad high there .. I fear'Do not compare your bike to others, for always there will be greater and lesser bikes'0 -
josame wrote:dennisn wrote:About 45 years ago I thought I cared and set off to follow in my fathers footsteps and help save the world. Didn't quite work out that way. quote]
erm setting your expectations a tad high there .. I fear
I think the key word there was help. I any case what with me being 19 and off to
make the world safe from the commies, I seem to recall thinking something like that. Didn't take long, however, for that great and glorious feeling to disappear once you start to ask yourself "what the hell are we doing?". I even asked my father if he had asked himself that same question and his only reply was no.0 -
dennisn wrote:josame wrote:dennisn wrote:About 45 years ago I thought I cared and set off to follow in my fathers footsteps and help save the world. Didn't quite work out that way. quote]
erm setting your expectations a tad high there .. I fear
I think the key word there was help. I any case what with me being 19 and off to
make the world safe from the commies, I seem to recall thinking something like that. Didn't take long, however, for that great and glorious feeling to disappear once you start to ask yourself "what the hell are we doing?". I even asked my father if he had asked himself that same question and his only reply was no.
wonder if some of the 'enemy' had similar experiences with theyre dads...'Do not compare your bike to others, for always there will be greater and lesser bikes'0 -
dennisn wrote:... I'm not so sure. I'm pretty sure that cancer victims have a whole other set of priorities...
I have read about a lot of people, cancer sufferers and their families, that look on Lance as a role model. their hopes and fears are very closely allied to Armstrong and his foundation. He is a figurehead, a beacon. "if Lance can do it, perhaps I can too'.
Now, it may be that some people can separate 'Lance the Cancer survivor', from 'Lance the Multi Tour Winner', but I suspect that will be a very small number. Especially as LA himself has deliberately mixed the two together.
It seems that many people idolise him. If he is shown to be the greatest sporting cheat the world has known, then I suspect there will be a spate of suicides, cancer sufferers who will have given up because their 'god' has been shown to have clay feet. The Lance they love will have 'died', they will mourn, it will hurt.
Of course there will be many people who will not accept the evidence, who will believe the lie no matter what. You might call them zealots or even fundamentalists.
But for a few, it will be the end of their world. Even if it's only one, it's one too many.
It will be a very big deal.--
Burls Ti Tourer for Tarmac, Saracen aluminium full suss for trails0 -
dennisn wrote:Please explain to me how your life will change or be any different once this verdict(either way) comes in. Other than a hooray or a damn it what will change? Either way it turns out I see it as win / win for most of the angry people on here. If he's busted it should be like a big weight being lifted off of you, what with all that anger instantly gone. If he's cleared, well, sooner or later, hopefully sooner, you'll finally say to yourself or someone else will say it to you, "damn, I've got to quit beating myself up over this" and move on to raging about the next thing. Whatever that may be. Also not sure how Bolt is different. He runs faster and beats people like he's on rocket fuel. How can you take that seriously?
The issue with the whole lance issue is three fold
1) He didnt 'beat' cancer, the drugs and therapies doctors used on him managed to stop and destroy the cancer. He was fortunate as he was rich enough to have access to all of the available treatments at the time, including some drugs still in trial, and also he had testicular cancer which has the highest survival rate. His view on 'cancer survivors' suggest and i am sure states somewhere that they are the winners which usefully ignores the fact that those who are less fortunate are not winners ergo losers. Attitude has very little impact on outcome. It is a total lottery recovering from cancer, and much of it is due to the type / location of the cancer, when it is diagnosed and then what treatments are available locally for this. To date all of the funding raised to date for the lance foundation does not appear to have moved this on greatly.
2) Everybody knows he doped this is really well rehearsed, he wasnt alone looking at the other 'winners' at the time, most of them have now be held to account and so should he. Maybe it is just a british emphasis on fair play.....
3) It is clear that he was instrumental in the structured approach to this across 'his' team. Add to this the environment of bullying and castigation of those who 'left' is utterly reprehensible. Hopefully this is exactly the detail which came out through the fed interviews.0 -
ddraver wrote:Ok, I'm not sure there will be suicides.......
I hope not, but people who are in despair in the first place don't have much resilience.--
Burls Ti Tourer for Tarmac, Saracen aluminium full suss for trails0 -
WADA have told the UCI that USADA have juristiction and they should back offFckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0
-
andrewjoseph wrote:It seems that many people idolise him. If he is shown to be the greatest sporting cheat the world has known, then I suspect there will be a spate of suicides, cancer sufferers who will have given up because their 'god' has been shown to have clay feet. The Lance they love will have 'died', they will mourn, it will hurt.
I think you give people way, way to little credit and LA way, way to much. Suicide if he's found to be a cheater????? Whoa. I also think that anyone who believes LA is a God and not a simple human is completely deluded. Do you believe he's anything other than a man? Sounds like you do.andrewjoseph wrote:Of course there will be many people who will not accept the evidence, who will believe the lie no matter what. You might call them zealots or even fundamentalists.
So if he's proven innocent will you be one of the people who believe the evidence?
Or will you be a "zealot" and not accept the truth? In which case you would be become the liar?0 -
Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0
-
iainf72 wrote:WADA have told the UCI that USADA have juristiction and they should back off
Cracking stuff, things hotting up now!0 -
iainf72 wrote:http://playtrue.wada-ama.org/news/wada-confirms-usada-jurisdiction-in-us-postal-service-cycling-case/
Bit of a public slap down
Public kick-in more like. Love it.0 -
iainf72 wrote:http://playtrue.wada-ama.org/news/wada-confirms-usada-jurisdiction-in-us-postal-service-cycling-case/
Bit of a public slap down
Quite right too.
We all know it.
They know it too.0 -
I thought it was funny the UCI said USADA hadn't followed WADA code after WADA had announced that USADA had in fact followed it
Take care of the luxuries and the necessites will take care of themselves.0 -
dennisn wrote:andrewjoseph wrote:It seems that many people idolise him. If he is shown to be the greatest sporting cheat the world has known, then I suspect there will be a spate of suicides, cancer sufferers who will have given up because their 'god' has been shown to have clay feet. The Lance they love will have 'died', they will mourn, it will hurt.
I think you give people way, way to little credit and LA way, way to much. Suicide if he's found to be a cheater????? Whoa. I also think that anyone who believes LA is a God and not a simple human is completely deluded. Do you believe he's anything other than a man? Sounds like you do.andrewjoseph wrote:Of course there will be many people who will not accept the evidence, who will believe the lie no matter what. You might call them zealots or even fundamentalists.
So if he's proven innocent will you be one of the people who believe the evidence?
Or will you be a "zealot" and not accept the truth? In which case you would be become the liar?
No, Dennis, you are attributing things to me I have not said. I do not believe him a god, nor did I say as such. I am an atheist. Read what I have said, not what you think I mean.
I have a little experience with people who are deluded, I was a registered psychiatric nurse for some years.
I know that when people are afraid, they will cling to false hope, and when that hope is taken away, they feel there is nothing to live for.
Some people with cancer are afraid, they can be ill and physically weak. In these conditions it is understandable to be mentally 'fragile' and identify too closely with a hero figure. If that figure is shown not to be a hero then the world can collapse for some people.
This can happen with supposedly 'healthy' people who suddenly have their faith system undermined, it is well documented.
It is also well documented that some of Lance's fans are cancer sufferers, many idolise him. It is not a great leap to suppose that some of those idolising fans who have cancer, should Lance be found guilty, will be traumatised enough to take their own life.
If Lance is shown not guilty, I will be surprised and disappointed for a little while. I'll also still think that he's a cheat until I'm shown evidence that overturns all the circumstantial evidence I've seen/read.
I think Lance is guilty, I will be glad to see him exposed as such, but it won't change my life one way or the other. But I'm not a cancer sufferer who has pinned my hopes on surviving the same way as Lance did.
I really hope I am wrong, but I don't think so.--
Burls Ti Tourer for Tarmac, Saracen aluminium full suss for trails0 -
richard wants a baum wrote:I thought it was funny the UCI said USADA hadn't followed WADA code after WADA had announced that USADA had in fact followed it
Presumably Pat will come out all guns blazing tomorrow, accusing Howman of not following Wada code :roll:0 -
iainf72 wrote:http://playtrue.wada-ama.org/news/wada-confirms-usada-jurisdiction-in-us-postal-service-cycling-case/
Bit of a public slap down
Pleasure to read, concise and to the point.
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i-team/world-anti-doping-agency-sides-u-s-anti-doping-agency-uci-case-lance-armstrong-article-1.1131070 ...similar report0 -
Dennis - is there a reason why you're so utterly focused on LA when this clearly goes far deeper than a single athlete doping? The case also involves, for example, Bruyneel, who is still working in cycling, and possible corruption at the UCI.
We know they aren't the things that will make the headlines, not straight away at any rate, but they're there.
What do you think will happen if the case does provide some support for the idea the UCI covered up for LA? Having tried to meddle in USADAs jurisdiction (and receiving a public slapping from WADA for it) the UCI are risking cycling's status as an Olympic sport. And here in the UK we've had cyclists on the front page of the newspapers for the right reasons almost constantly since halfway through the Tour de France. I doubt there's a single paper in Britain that doesn't have a picture of either Hoy, Pendleton or Trott on its cover today.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0
-
iainf72 wrote:
Blimey.
Though this bit made me laugh, in a sardonic, cynical manner.
"The Tennis Anti-Doping Programme is a comprehensive and internationally recognised drug-testing programme that applies to all players competing at tournaments sanctioned by the ITF, ATP, and WTA. "Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
andrewjoseph wrote:dennisn wrote:andrewjoseph wrote:It seems that many people idolise him. If he is shown to be the greatest sporting cheat the world has known, then I suspect there will be a spate of suicides, cancer sufferers who will have given up because their 'god' has been shown to have clay feet. The Lance they love will have 'died', they will mourn, it will hurt.
I think you give people way, way to little credit and LA way, way to much. Suicide if he's found to be a cheater????? Whoa. I also think that anyone who believes LA is a God and not a simple human is completely deluded. Do you believe he's anything other than a man? Sounds like you do.andrewjoseph wrote:Of course there will be many people who will not accept the evidence, who will believe the lie no matter what. You might call them zealots or even fundamentalists.
So if he's proven innocent will you be one of the people who believe the evidence?
Or will you be a "zealot" and not accept the truth? In which case you would be become the liar?
No, Dennis, you are attributing things to me I have not said. I do not believe him a god, nor did I say as such. I am an atheist. Read what I have said, not what you think I mean.
Dennis hasn't said you think Armstrong is a god but whether you think he is more than a man. You suggested others may see Lance as a god to which he replied to do so would be deluded. Afford others the same privilege you expect of them and read what they've said not what you think they mean.
As a former psychiatric I'm sure you'd agree that people obsessing for months and years about this case is not healthy. Have fun if people must but to rabidly obsess and speak of joy at the outcome goes beyond reasonable behaviour.
Despite you being an atheist your logic relies on a significant leap of faith. You've lumped together clinical delusion with fear with grief with suffering from cancer with religious and sporting idolatry and suggested the conclusion may be suicide. Whilst it may be documented how people react in a given situation to combine a number of disparate situations and to reach such a conclusion is pretty far fetched.
Ironically, I was in a meeting yesterday with a chief exec from my local healthcare trust and I raised a point about serious untoward incidences (i.e, deaths and suicides by mental health patients). Unsurprisingly, no reported SUI cases have been the result of a fallen sporting idol; debt, family break up, death within the family and addiction were common but no deaths by fallen sporting idol.0 -
No tA Doctor wrote:iainf72 wrote:
Blimey.
Though this bit made me laugh, in a sardonic, cynical manner.
"The Tennis Anti-Doping Programme is a comprehensive and internationally recognised drug-testing programme that applies to all players competing at tournaments sanctioned by the ITF, ATP, and WTA. "
It's a bit weird that they even have to say that.0 -
BillyMansell wrote:...
Dennis hasn't said you think Armstrong is a god but whether you think he is more than a man. You suggested others may see Lance as a god to which he replied to do so would be deluded. Afford others the same privilege you expect of them and read what they've said not what you think they mean.
I think the distinction here is pretty blurred, I said some may think Lance a god, Dennis asked if I think he is more than a man. This seems to be an implication that I also think him supernatural. I believe that I was quite clear is stating others may think him a god, my previous posts will clearly show that I am less than impressed with Lance.As a former psychiatric I'm sure you'd agree that people obsessing for months and years about this case is not healthy. Have fun if people must but to rabidly obsess and speak of joy at the outcome goes beyond reasonable behaviour.
You seem to be intimating that I am obsessed, is that the case?Despite you being an atheist your logic relies on a significant leap of faith. You've lumped together clinical delusion with fear with grief with suffering from cancer with religious and sporting idolatry and suggested the conclusion may be suicide. Whilst it may be documented how people react in a given situation to combine a number of disparate situations and to reach such a conclusion is pretty far fetched.
I don't agree with your, but I see what you mean. My intent was to separate clinical delusion from hope and fear. The lay person doesn't really understand many medical terms.
However far fetched it may seem, it cannot be discounted and I feel it poses a real risk, especially in America where livestrong has much greater presence than in europe. Lance is very much associated with the 'charity', he is used as proof that people can survive and have an exceptional live afterwards.
I contend that if he is found guilty many cancer sufferers will feel betrayed.
My use of this topic is in response to Dennis stating that most people won't care about what happens to Lance. I am stating that quite a lot of seriously ill people will care a great deal.Ironically, I was in a meeting yesterday with a chief exec from my local healthcare trust and I raised a point about serious untoward incidences (i.e, deaths and suicides by mental health patients). Unsurprisingly, no reported SUI cases have been the result of a fallen sporting idol; debt, family break up, death within the family and addiction were common but no deaths by fallen sporting idol.
This is anecdotal though isn't it. You chief exec won't have done a survey on suicide attempts due to fallen sporting idols. It also doesn't take into account that Lance is a much higher profile 'idol' to many more 'vulnerable' people.
I am suggesting that Lance being proved guilty may be the last straw for people. As you know, not every suicide attempt leaves a note as to why. and the successful ones can't be asked.--
Burls Ti Tourer for Tarmac, Saracen aluminium full suss for trails0 -
So who will blink first - The UCI or Lance?
Lance probably has a strategic option where he confesses in some form, and puts the responsibility onto the UCI. And the UCI will be aware of this. Hence their attempts to squash it - They're not trying to protect one man, they're trying to save themselves. (by them, I mean Pat and Hein)Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
iainf72 wrote:So who will blink first - The UCI or Lance?
Lance probably has a strategic option where he confesses in some form, and puts the responsibility onto the UCI. And the UCI will be aware of this. Hence their attempts to squash it - They're not trying to protect one man, they're trying to save themselves. (by them, I mean Pat and Hein)
That much has always been clear.
For me the TdSuisse rumours are the thing they are likely to be worried about the most.
Lance will use the "the UCI, the governing body, even helped me do it" line, and do the "I just did what was, in essence, fair, since everyone was doing it to the point where the governing body was helping out".
Then the UCI is truly f*cked.
Why does Pat specifically want to save Hein?
Surely it's just the UCI generally?0
