USADA files doping charges against Lance
Comments
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Rick Chasey wrote:http://www.sporza.be/permalink/1.1343830
Lemond visits de Cauwer.
Looks and sounds like a big fat American on holiday, especially with the camera...
Lemond is one of the biggest reasons I started racing in my teens, but when I hear things like this I can only shake my head. I understand his point, but the way he tries to make it he always comes off as someone who is bitter and has a personal vendetta against Armstrong. He really needs to spend some time talking with a PR professional to learn how to make his point while coming off looking like someone who wants whats best for the sport.0 -
RichN95 wrote:dennisn wrote:BikingBernie wrote:From 'The clinic', Joe Papp's view on the USADA action:Knowing the folks at USADA as well as I do, I'd describe them as ice-cold and fairly unemotional and unflappable. They think several moves ahead even when ordering dinner and early-on in the process I figured the best way to deal with them was not to try to be crafty or clever, b/c they'd eventually walk me into a brick-wall or punji-stick trap of my own making.
For them to even have decided to charge Lance they must be 99% confident/sure of being able to present sufficient evidence to win a conviction. Otherwise they wouldn't risk it. For them to have decided to charge several people along w/ him and bundle the crimes into a single massive conspiracy means the evidence is overwhelming.
Statements like that sort of make me wonder just who are these seemingly self annointed guardians of sport. Most likely a bunch of lawyers. For my money give me sports and competition anyday over a bunch of talking head lawyers. I would much rather watch the TDF than Court TV.
Well that particular guardian was a fourth rate cyclist who had to dope to maintain that level, then got caught, then gave lectures about the ills of doping while simultaneously selling doping products to 200 people without any medical advice and then when arrested grassed up everyone he could think of to keep his sorry ars* out of jail. He now tells Armstrong obsessives what they what to hear with huge doses of moralising in the hope that just a handful of people may forget that he's an utter scumbag.
I am on the same page as you Rich. It cracks me up how the boys over at CN practically drool over Papp and ignore the reality of him simply because he has made Armstrong his #1 target.0 -
Rundfahrt wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:http://www.sporza.be/permalink/1.1343830
Lemond visits de Cauwer.
Looks and sounds like a big fat American on holiday, especially with the camera...
Lemond is one of the biggest reasons I started racing in my teens, but when I hear things like this I can only shake my head. I understand his point, but the way he tries to make it he always comes off as someone who is bitter and has a personal vendetta against Armstrong. He really needs to spend some time talking with a PR professional to learn how to make his point while coming off looking like someone who wants whats best for the sport.
He's got a very good reason to be bitter towards armstrong and at the same time (like many others, whether they were riders or not) have witnessed LA destroying the sport we all love so much. So yes, to him it's both personal and for the greater good. He's human after all and so happens to be outspoken. And why would he need a PR team? he's no LA!0 -
skylla wrote:Rundfahrt wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:http://www.sporza.be/permalink/1.1343830
Lemond visits de Cauwer.
Looks and sounds like a big fat American on holiday, especially with the camera...
Lemond is one of the biggest reasons I started racing in my teens, but when I hear things like this I can only shake my head. I understand his point, but the way he tries to make it he always comes off as someone who is bitter and has a personal vendetta against Armstrong. He really needs to spend some time talking with a PR professional to learn how to make his point while coming off looking like someone who wants whats best for the sport.
He's got a very good reason to be bitter towards armstrong and at the same time (like many others, whether they were riders or not) have witnessed LA destroying the sport we all love so much. So yes, to him it's both personal and for the greater good. He's human after all and so happens to be outspoken. And why would he need a PR team? he's no LA!
Why should he be so bitter towards LA but not towards other riders? I would think, if doping bothered him so much, that his real anger would be towards those that were winning in the early 90's. You know the time he claims he had to retire because of doping (well after claiming it was due to the lead in his body).
I also wonder what "greater good" it does to bust Armstrong. Did it do anything when Riis got busted? He lost his Tour title for a short time and is still running his own team. Why is he (and many others) not going after Indurain? Why was Lemond not vocal before LA started winning Tours?
That is exactly why he needs to, at least, talk with a PR professional. He always comes off as someone with a personal hate-on for one person. His points are valid but the way he words them makes him sound like a bitter old man. Anyone who is a public figure should take a PR course. Hell, pro sports teams and college sports teams do this, if only to make sure the team and the athletes come off well, even when they say something controversial.0 -
Rundfahrt wrote:skylla wrote:Rundfahrt wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:http://www.sporza.be/permalink/1.1343830
Lemond visits de Cauwer.
Looks and sounds like a big fat American on holiday, especially with the camera...
Lemond is one of the biggest reasons I started racing in my teens, but when I hear things like this I can only shake my head. I understand his point, but the way he tries to make it he always comes off as someone who is bitter and has a personal vendetta against Armstrong. He really needs to spend some time talking with a PR professional to learn how to make his point while coming off looking like someone who wants whats best for the sport.
He's got a very good reason to be bitter towards armstrong and at the same time (like many others, whether they were riders or not) have witnessed LA destroying the sport we all love so much. So yes, to him it's both personal and for the greater good. He's human after all and so happens to be outspoken. And why would he need a PR team? he's no LA!
Why should he be so bitter towards LA but not towards other riders? I would think, if doping bothered him so much, that his real anger would be towards those that were winning in the early 90's. You know the time he claims he had to retire because of doping (well after claiming it was due to the lead in his body).
I also wonder what "greater good" it does to bust Armstrong. Did it do anything when Riis got busted? He lost his Tour title for a short time and is still running his own team. Why is he (and many others) not going after Indurain? Why was Lemond not vocal before LA started winning Tours?
That is exactly why he needs to, at least, talk with a PR professional. He always comes off as someone with a personal hate-on for one person. His points are valid but the way he words them makes him sound like a bitter old man. Anyone who is a public figure should take a PR course. Hell, pro sports teams and college sports teams do this, if only to make sure the team and the athletes come off well, even when they say something controversial.
That's the question I'm trying to answer for you if you care to listen - see above. Again, in Lemond's case it is very much personal **too** and of course he would therefore point his arrows to LA. You know, one stone, two birds, or whatever. Anger also works like compound interest, so his sharpest axe is for guess who. He doesn't need a PR pro, he's Greg, the real Greg, an angry Greg, a man with love for the sport who's given many of us memorable moments, take it or leave it - but is there really a need to diss him for it?0 -
skylla wrote:Rundfahrt wrote:Why should he be so bitter towards LA but not towards other riders? I would think, if doping bothered him so much, that his real anger would be towards those that were winning in the early 90's. You know the time he claims he had to retire because of doping (well after claiming it was due to the lead in his body).
I also wonder what "greater good" it does to bust Armstrong. Did it do anything when Riis got busted? He lost his Tour title for a short time and is still running his own team. Why is he (and many others) not going after Indurain? Why was Lemond not vocal before LA started winning Tours?
That is exactly why he needs to, at least, talk with a PR professional. He always comes off as someone with a personal hate-on for one person. His points are valid but the way he words them makes him sound like a bitter old man. Anyone who is a public figure should take a PR course. Hell, pro sports teams and college sports teams do this, if only to make sure the team and the athletes come off well, even when they say something controversial.
That's the question I'm trying to answer for you if you care to listen - see above. Again, in Lemond's case it is very much personal **too** and of course he would therefore point his arrows to LA. You know, one stone, two birds, or whatever. Anger also works like compound interest, so his sharpest axe is for guess who. He doesn't need a PR pro, he's Greg, the real Greg, an angry Greg, a man with love for the sport who's given many of us memorable moments, take it or leave it - but is there really a need to diss him for it?
Perhaps you should be the one listening, since you simply repeat things you already said instead of answering my questions.
When it comes to PR, it's clear that you either post from an agenda or have no clue what PR actually is. (I'll give you a hint, it is not simply something for bad people to try to con people)0 -
P.S.- I think it's funny that you say I am "dissing" Greg and it is a problem for you yet you are ok with others "dissing" other people.0
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skylla wrote:Rundfahrt wrote:P.S.- I think it's funny that you say I am "dissing" Greg and it is a problem for you yet you are ok with others "dissing" other people.
This "discussion" between you and me is now officially ozone'd. I'm out.
I think it "ozone'd" (is that the cool word in school now?) when you decided to not even try to have a conversation but insisted on just repeating nonsense.0 -
skylla wrote:Rundfahrt wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:http://www.sporza.be/permalink/1.1343830
Lemond visits de Cauwer.
Looks and sounds like a big fat American on holiday, especially with the camera...
Lemond is one of the biggest reasons I started racing in my teens, but when I hear things like this I can only shake my head. I understand his point, but the way he tries to make it he always comes off as someone who is bitter and has a personal vendetta against Armstrong. He really needs to spend some time talking with a PR professional to learn how to make his point while coming off looking like someone who wants whats best for the sport.
...... have witnessed LA destroying the sport we all love so much.
I simply can't buy into anything at all about this statement. I actually lived through the LA era and strangely enough I still enjoy riding as much as ever. I also think your "WE" needs to be changed to read "ME". You can't speak for anyone but yourself. As for destroying cycling, well let's see. There are more bike, frame, and component manufacturerers out there than ever before. As near as I can tell Pro cycling is alive and doing very well, thank you. There are more Pro and lower level races going on around the world than ever before. New and major racing events seem to be sprouting up all over the world. Me, I'm out riding as much as ever and spending more on "must have" stuff than ever before. Sorry to hear that you may be dropping out of cycling because someone doped but I think I'm gonna stay with it and more than likely a few others will too.0 -
We've covered this before Den. Your experiences don't constitute evidence.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0
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I'm a long-time lurker, keen cyclist, hope you will not be too hard on me.
I've been checking the TdF wins 1999-2005, should LA have those 7 wins taken away.
1999: Alex Zulle
2000: Jan Ullrich
2001: Jan Ullrich
2002: Joseba Beloki
2003: Jan Ullrich
2004: Andreas Klöden
2005: Ivan Basso
Nice to think it would happen, but very very unlikely. What would they do about these 7 nulled wins, though? Leave those 7 years blank on all the future records?0 -
I think that's very much a TBC. I think a lot of people don't think they should be awarded to anyone. Perhaps like Riis just have an * next to the name
Welcome btwFckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
iainf72 wrote:I think that's very much a TBC. I think a lot of people don't think they should be awarded to anyone. Perhaps like Riis just have an * next to the name
Welcome btw
"Void"
That'll do.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
I'm uneasy with the "just leave the winner blank" way of doing things. What if the 2nd placed rider was riding clean? Now I'm not going to suggest any of that above list were clean, but in future races who knows.0
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AVE Dennism
EES believer ees very good
AVE Calves
Ave afterlife0 -
iainf72 wrote:We've covered this before Den. Your experiences don't constitute evidence.
Who's talking about evidence. The guy was saying someone destroyed cycling. Right off the top of my head I can't think of anyone who has claimed to quit cycling because it's been destroyed. I'm still riding. How about you? Have you quit on account of LA? Anyone out there who sold all their gear and bikes because someone doped? Anyone? :? :?0 -
dennisn wrote:iainf72 wrote:We've covered this before Den. Your experiences don't constitute evidence.
Who's talking about evidence. The guy was saying someone destroyed cycling. Right off the top of my head I can't think of anyone who has claimed to quit cycling because it's been destroyed. I'm still riding. How about you? Have you quit on account of LA? Anyone out there who sold all their gear and bikes because someone doped? Anyone? :? :?
Actually cycling, both the sport and the recreation was thriving before the downturn of the world economy. Unfortunately that doesn't fit the hyperbole that some people feel the need to use when posting how evil Armstrong is. Keep in mind the people who think he is a saint will also use hyperbole.0 -
Just to focus on those who ride a bike is to take a far too narrow a perspective. You also have to consider the impact on the wider viewing population. For example:dennisn wrote:The guy was saying someone destroyed cycling. Right off the top of my head I can't think of anyone who has claimed to quit cycling because it's been destroyed. I'm still riding. How about you? Have you quit on account of LA? Anyone out there who sold all their gear and bikes because someone doped? Anyone? :? :?
From The Sunday Times
June 29, 2008
How can we save one of sport’s greatest competitions, the Tour de France?
Paul Kimmage
A good friend, and great journalist, Pierre Ballester, sent me a copy of his latest work last week, ‘Tempetes sur la Tour’. A brilliant deconstruction on the state of the Tour, it makes for sad and sobering reading.
Take the withering statistics Ballester produces on doping. Would you believe that 85% of the winners since 1968 have, at one point or other, contravened the antidoping rules? Would you believe that 72.5% of those who stood on the podium have cheated? What about the top-tens? Sixty per cent sound right? The damage to the credibility of the race has been irreparable
Take also the results of a recent survey (of a thousand French citizens) on their attitudes to the Tour…
Doping has destroyed everything, I feel betrayed: 90%
Because of doping, I no longer believe in the results of the Tour de France: 85%.
All top-level cyclists are doped: 69%.
Or study how different people responded in the same survey when asked to give the reason why they watch the race...
I watch the Tour de France for the scenery: 22%
I watch the Tour de France for the mountain stages: 20%
For the competition: 16%
For the doping scandals: 16%
For the exploits of the champions: 8%
Out of childhood nostalgia: 7%
Because it passes quite near my house: 5%
For the publicity caravan: 3%0 -
BikingBernie wrote:I watch the Tour de France for the scenery: 22%
I watch the Tour de France for the mountain stages: 20%
For the competition: 16%
For the doping scandals: 16%
For the exploits of the champions: 8%
Out of childhood nostalgia: 7%
Because it passes quite near my house: 5%
For the publicity caravan: 3%
Sorry Bernie, but none of those figures are surprising, or even to do with doping. We re making the mistake of thinking cycling is a big sport again. It's not! Cyclists are a minority, cyclists that follow Pro Racing are a minority within that minority. MTBing is a massive part of the UK cycling scene thanks to the growth of trail centres and such like, but ask anyone in Llandegla car park who anyone other than Cav or Wiggo are and they ll have no clue! They'd probably struggel with those two even!We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
ddraver wrote:I'm guessing, despite the name, that you re an American Rundfahrt....? Cycling in the UK is thriving, despite (or even because of) the downturn
1) What type of cycling is thriving. Is it recreation, sport or transportation.
2) I am also talking about sales of bikes, cycling equipment, participation in races and sportives and tv ratings for cycling races.
3) I don't recall saying anything that would make one think that I am American and, to be honest, don't see what it would matter if I were.0 -
ddraver wrote:BikingBernie wrote:I watch the Tour de France for the scenery: 22%
I watch the Tour de France for the mountain stages: 20%
For the competition: 16%
For the doping scandals: 16%
For the exploits of the champions: 8%
Out of childhood nostalgia: 7%
Because it passes quite near my house: 5%
For the publicity caravan: 3%
Sorry Bernie, but none of those figures are surprising, or even to do with doping. We re making the mistake of thinking cycling is a big sport again. It's not! Cyclists are a minority, cyclists that follow Pro Racing are a minority within that minority. MTBing is a massive part of the UK cycling scene thanks to the growth of trail centres and such like, but ask anyone in Llandegla car park who anyone other than Cav or Wiggo are and they ll have no clue! They'd probably struggel with those two even!
I wonder what name would be the most recognized by the general public in the UK and around the world, in cycling over the last ten years.
Another point to add is that these same people still watch football despite many scandals involving bribes, throwing matches and doping (though most of the doping is conveniently swept under the rug). Now why would that be?0 -
Rundfahrt wrote:ddraver wrote:I'm guessing, despite the name, that you re an American Rundfahrt....? Cycling in the UK is thriving, despite (or even because of) the downturn
1) What type of cycling is thriving. Is it recreation, sport or transportation.
2) I am also talking about sales of bikes, cycling equipment, participation in races and sportives and tv ratings for cycling races.
3) I don't recall saying anything that would make one think that I am American and, to be honest, don't see what it would matter if I were.
America is evil
Hail kazakhstan
Ave Calves0 -
1) No idea, but does it matter? Anecdote - Every time I go home I see more MAMIL's/MTB Weekend Warriors than the last time, and the bike shop owner has a shinier car
2) Bike sales were up last year - cycling was one of the few industries that bucked the trends. There seems to be a new sportive every weekend
3)The Le Mond references and the stuff about PR - and nobody said it mattered...We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
Rundfahrt wrote:
I wonder what name would be the most recognized by the general public in the UK and around the world, in cycling over the last ten years.
It would be Armstrong - Anecdote again - Even in Holland and with people who do know the difference betwen Wiggins and Evans the responses I ve got from non-cycling friends have ranged from "well they re all on it" to total indifference...
Because it's important to us, we think it's important to everyone but Guys, Most people couldnt give a toss!We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
Er, those figure relate to recent attitudes to the Tour and pro cycling in France a country where, thirty-odd years ago, supposedly two thirds of the population only used to work for one third of the time the Tour was on because they were busy taking holidays or skiving off work in order to watch the race. I recall that the French interior ministry even used to calculate figures for the loss in GDP due to people being more interested in watching the Tour than working!ddraver wrote:...none of those figures are surprising, or even to do with doping. We re making the mistake of thinking cycling is a big sport again. It's not! Cyclists are a minority, cyclists that follow Pro Racing are a minority within that minority.0 -
Thirty years ago the French had riders who could win the race - several of them.BikingBernie wrote:Er, those figure relate to recent attitudes to the Tour and pro cycling in France a country where, thirty-odd years ago, supposedly two thirds of the population only used to work for one third of the time the Tour was on because they were busy taking holidays or skiving off work in order to watch the race. I recall that the French interior ministry even used to calculate figures for the loss in GDP due to people being more interested in watching the Tour than working!
They also didn't have cable TV, DVD, the internet, X-Box, etc, etc.Twitter: @RichN950 -
Pro cycling has very little to do with people riding bikes in general. The health of the sport is the health of TV and sponsor revenues. If when you're watching cycling you see an ad for cycling shoes then you know the sport isn't that big where you are. If it was it would be Gilette and Carlsberg buying the ad time.
The boom in numbers of bikes on the roads in the UK is down to largely the same factors as the boom in the number of runners, surfers, kayakers, climbers, skateboarders, kitesurfers etc. It's a healthy, environmentally friendly outdoor pursuit. When you see someone running in the park you don't assume they know who won the NY Marathon, do you? And the roadies are massively outnumbered by commuters, hipsters on fixies, MTBers etc.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0
