Cycling specific weights/strengthening.

Tom Dean

Since

monkeydan wrote:

the science is equivocal at this point.

,
How can you claim

monkeydan wrote:

Strength *training* seems to have some benefits for cycling

?

monkeydan

Tom Dean wrote:

Since

monkeydan wrote:

the science is equivocal at this point.

,
How can you claim

monkeydan wrote:

Strength *training* seems to have some benefits for cycling

?

Because I'm biased :-)

Nah, should really have said 'strength training may have some benefits for cycling'. I haven't seen anything which shows strength training is detrimental to endurance performance (not saying these studies don't exist but I haven't seen them). All the studies I have seen either show no benefit or some benefit. Hence the science is equivocal at this point.

Alex_Simmons/RST

monkeydan wrote:

I haven't seen anything which shows strength training is detrimental to endurance performance (not saying these studies don't exist but I haven't seen them).

They exist, for example:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19826297

monkeydan

Thanks Alex. What are your thoughts on the decrease in performance being due to the addition of strength training to their usual volume of endurance work?

Saw this link on the side of the abstract you posted:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20072042

Alex_Simmons/RST

monkeydan wrote:

Thanks Alex. What are your thoughts on the decrease in performance being due to the addition of strength training to their usual volume of endurance work?

I'm not surprised. Hammer yourself in the gym, have inadequate recovery and not expect to see a decline in performance? Of the athletes I've coached that do/have had gym in their routine (or something similar, such as having a job involving substantial physical labour), it's pretty normal to see a reduction in TT/cycling performance from such work.

poynedexter

this is a bloody minefield. its hard to do right for doing wrong lol.


btw T.M.H.N.E.T, you seem pretty clued in. as a fit 41 yr old, how long will i need to get from a 10tt @28'12" down to mid 26's with training like a normal person?

Mr Dog

Thankfully RST has turned up to provide the science.... haven't been to the gym since the last thread

dw300

If anyone wants to know the opinions of someone that has weight trained, and in the last year made something of a switch to cycling, please read on ..

First, any muscular strength developed from weights seemed pretty much useless. I squat 120kg (ass to the grass, with a bar, not leg press (dont get me started on that), and deadlift 165kg. I weigh 73kg.). To begin with I had no power into headwinds and sprints .. i was pretty much ready to fall off if i got out of the saddle after about a dozen pedal strokes, and i'd bonk at the 25-30 mile mark every ride.

Second, you just can't lift 3-5 times a week and also get good quality riding done as well. I'm down to Squatting once per fortnight, and deadlifting in the weeks in between. I'll do upper body work 2-3 times a week but stick to one exercise per session to reduce fatigue.

I just did a 60 mile sportive which i also did last year, and went from 3:45 to 3:18, practically all of which I put down to getting leaner, bike handling, riding smarter, drafting, a far better pedal stroke, and more Rule V .. not to more power or CV fitness.

I averaged 155bpm for that 3:18, but probably well into the 160s (avg) for the last 1:30. When I check on Strava for guys doing the ride in about the same time they're all averaging 130bpm while putting out more power.

Now, at 73kg a lot of guys seem to be physically more muscular in the legs than I am, so because I don't seem to have a problem pushing a highish HR for a long time, I figured it's my leg power that I need to increase. But now I'm thinking from reading this forum that if i simply put a huge amount of miles in and increase my CV performance, that I'll basically unlock the power that's in my legs at the moment.

But does that explain all the guys in their 50s and over, who can ride at the same speed as me? I mean regular guys not 30 year club vets. Are they really as fit or fitter than I am? In bodybuilding you get a load of older guys who are still hugely strong, and I kinda get the feeling that its more likely that the old guys are less fit but putting out more power, their steady riding style would back that assumption up, but im not sure.

It's like they've got a 3l 6 cylinder diesel engine, and i've got a 1l turbo petrol engine. But in the end you'd rather have a 3l V6 turbo petrol, and so I guess you have to do a bit of both. Weights will make you stronger and they extra muscle will help, but even a (natural) bodybuilder will only add 5 good pounds of muscle a year, so with less weight training a cyclist might do well to add a pound a year from weights (and a little more from cycle based training). But that extra pound of muscle will mean you can crank out your normal amount of power without raising your HR as much as if you didn't have it.

There was some talk about other factors which resonate with weight training thoughts, which i'll mention ..

Strength is a skill, I can easily outlift friends who are much bigger than me.

The skill in in making the mind to muscle connection (eg. the flexing individual muscles party piece, and flexing muscles harder than an untrained person), and in good technique. Gym noobs go by the motto 'No pain, no gain', powerlifters and Olympic Lifter will tell you that it's 'No brain, no gain'.

In the same way that you probably shouldn't buy a lighter bike till you're below 10% body fat, you probably shouldn't think too much about stronger muscles till you know how to get the most power out of what you have at the moment. And even then, it'd probably only benefit people who specifically TT, track, or are team sprinters.

The only way you're going to know for sure is to add lifting to your training for a year and see how you improve or not compared to your normal annual improvement. If it takes away from your cycle based training at all then it's probably not worth it.

dw300

poynedexter wrote:

this is a bloody minefield. its hard to do right for doing wrong lol.


btw T.M.H.N.E.T, you seem pretty clued in. as a fit 41 yr old, how long will i need to get from a 10tt @28'12" down to mid 26's with training like a normal person?

This might be a stupid question, but youre talking about a 10mile TT im guessing?

What part of NI are you at?

poynedexter

i have lots of stupid questions since i only did my first 10 mile tt a couple of weeks ago along with a kirkistown run. i'm millisle btw.

t.m.h.n.e.t

dw300 wrote:

poynedexter wrote:

this is a bloody minefield. its hard to do right for doing wrong lol.


btw T.M.H.N.E.T, you seem pretty clued in. as a fit 41 yr old, how long will i need to get from a 10tt @28'12" down to mid 26's with training like a normal person?

This might be a stupid question, but youre talking about a 10mile TT im guessing?

What part of NI are you at?

I'm not the person to be answering that question lol. I couldn't give a feck about TTing tbh

dw300

poynedexter wrote:

i have lots of stupid questions since i only did my first 10 mile tt a couple of weeks ago along with a kirkistown run. i'm millisle btw.

Well I went out and did a wee 10k TT of my own the other day and took almost as long as your 10ml one, so you're doing ok!

Should we start a NI rider thread somewhere and all subscribe? Or perhaps that's already been done?

Either of you guys on Strava?

t.m.h.n.e.t

dw300 wrote:

poynedexter wrote:

i have lots of stupid questions since i only did my first 10 mile tt a couple of weeks ago along with a kirkistown run. i'm millisle btw.

Well I went out and did a wee 10k TT of my own the other day and took almost as long as your 10ml one, so you're doing ok!

Should we start a NI rider thread somewhere and all subscribe? Or perhaps that's already been done?

Either of you guys on Strava?

NI thread in Bottom Bracket! Using mapmyride more these days :O

dw300

T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:

dw300 wrote:

poynedexter wrote:

i have lots of stupid questions since i only did my first 10 mile tt a couple of weeks ago along with a kirkistown run. i'm millisle btw.

Well I went out and did a wee 10k TT of my own the other day and took almost as long as your 10ml one, so you're doing ok!

Should we start a NI rider thread somewhere and all subscribe? Or perhaps that's already been done?

Either of you guys on Strava?

NI thread in Bottom Bracket! Using mapmyride more these days :O

Ta!

poynedexter

strava, eh no i'm a bit of a ludite really lol. do you need an black eyephone for that?

i just thought that wheni,m trying to push the next gear and the wee legs arent quite able to keep the cadence going, that high rep weights might bring them on quicker. but it seems not.

dw300

poynedexter wrote:

strava, eh no i'm a bit of a ludite really lol. do you need an black eyephone for that?

i just thought that wheni,m trying to push the next gear and the wee legs arent quite able to keep the cadence going, that high rep weights might bring them on quicker. but it seems not.

Lol, yeh one of those, or a paranoid android phone.

Getting used to the stresses and strains of increased effort, dealing with lactic acid and recovering better, and increased cardio-vascular fitness, and developing a more efficient pedal stroke and high cadence (even if you don't get into that extra gear) will all help you output more power without actually having to increase your muscular strength.

dennisn

One thing that has never been explained to my satisfaction is why weights are no good for cycling yet every other sport uses them. i.e. swimming, track and field, skiing, football(in all it's forms), baseball, hockey, and a whole raft of others. Yet cycling has these forum people who continue to to preach, for whatever reason, that cycling is somehow special and different.

jgsi

dennisn wrote:

One thing that has never been explained to my satisfaction is why weights are no good for cycling yet every other sport uses them. i.e. swimming, track and field, skiing, football(in all it's forms), baseball, hockey, and a whole raft of others. Yet cycling has these forum people who continue to to preach, for whatever reason, that cycling is somehow special and different.

aye Dennis, but at the mo, most in merry England would wish our footballers would spend a little more time kicking a ball and keeping it, than piddlin about in the gym. (amongst other things premiership players get up to)..

dennisn

JGSI wrote:

dennisn wrote:

One thing that has never been explained to my satisfaction is why weights are no good for cycling yet every other sport uses them. i.e. swimming, track and field, skiing, football(in all it's forms), baseball, hockey, and a whole raft of others. Yet cycling has these forum people who continue to to preach, for whatever reason, that cycling is somehow special and different.

aye Dennis, but at the mo, most in merry England would wish our footballers would spend a little more time kicking a ball and keeping it, than piddlin about in the gym. (amongst other things premiership players get up to)..

Sort of my point. How does having stronger muscles hinder you in anything? Especially sports?

Alex_Simmons/RST

dennisn wrote:

JGSI wrote:

dennisn wrote:

One thing that has never been explained to my satisfaction is why weights are no good for cycling yet every other sport uses them. i.e. swimming, track and field, skiing, football(in all it's forms), baseball, hockey, and a whole raft of others. Yet cycling has these forum people who continue to to preach, for whatever reason, that cycling is somehow special and different.

aye Dennis, but at the mo, most in merry England would wish our footballers would spend a little more time kicking a ball and keeping it, than piddlin about in the gym. (amongst other things premiership players get up to)..

Sort of my point. How does having stronger muscles hinder you in anything? Especially sports?

Endurance cycling is not a strength sport. It's an aerobic endurance sport involving significantly sub-maximal forces such that strength plays little, if any, role in performance. So while doing a bit of work in a gym may not hinder you, it may not be a smart use of available training time, and/or it may inhibit the quality of your cycling training by interfering with recovery.

d87heaven

The word 'may' seems to be used a lot in that post.

Alex_Simmons/RST

d87heaven wrote:

The word 'may' seems to be used a lot in that post.

Well unless one is specific, it cannot be any other way.

e.g. going to the gym might mean riding an indoor trainer bike which could well be beneficial. Or it might be performing work specifically to build strength (maximal force generation capability) of muscles, in which case it could very well be detrimental to endurance cycling performance.

This is a general advice forum, one cannot sensibly expect any more than that.

Mr Dog

Speaking of the 'general principles' any plans to publish a book Alex? Or can you recommend one for those of us who can't afford a power meter?

Alex_Simmons/RST

Mr Dog wrote:

Speaking of the 'general principles' any plans to publish a book Alex? Or can you recommend one for those of us who can't afford a power meter?

On what topic? I have no immediate plans to write a book. That is a heck of an undertaking.
I've blogged for years and written articles here and there for mags/websites. We will reintroduce an RST blog in future

If you are interested in fundamental principles of applying a power meter to training, then this is the one book you really should get:

Training and Racing with a Power Meter, by Hunter Allen and Dr Andrew Coggan
now available in several languages, also in e-book formats (Kindle etc).

For $15, I can't think of too many better ways to spend a few bucks.

dennisn

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

dennisn wrote:

JGSI wrote:

dennisn wrote:

One thing that has never been explained to my satisfaction is why weights are no good for cycling yet every other sport uses them. i.e. swimming, track and field, skiing, football(in all it's forms), baseball, hockey, and a whole raft of others. Yet cycling has these forum people who continue to to preach, for whatever reason, that cycling is somehow special and different.

aye Dennis, but at the mo, most in merry England would wish our footballers would spend a little more time kicking a ball and keeping it, than piddlin about in the gym. (amongst other things premiership players get up to)..

Sort of my point. How does having stronger muscles hinder you in anything? Especially sports?

Endurance cycling is not a strength sport. It's an aerobic endurance sport involving significantly sub-maximal forces such that strength plays little, if any, role in performance. So while doing a bit of work in a gym may not hinder you, it may not be a smart use of available training time, and/or it may inhibit the quality of your cycling training by interfering with recovery.

I would note that there are other types of cycling than this so called "endurance" cycling. Crit's, track TT'ing. All of which require a bit of strength. I would also note that you seem to be saying that weight training can be helpful IF you have the proper recovery time. Which for my money is really at the root of most peoples being just average riders and not improving. As for endurance cycling, it would seem this is a part of sports designed for people who do not have the ability or desire to actually train at any kind of intense level. So they just go out and ride, ride, ride, then enter 12 hour time trials, and Ironman tri's. No intensity required. In reality these people train mega hours and don't seem to realize that by training less at a higher intensity and using the extra free time to rest and recover they might actually become notable racers instead of so called "pack fill".

briantrumpet

dennisn wrote:

I would note that there are other types of cycling than this so called "endurance" cycling.

We've been here before. The sure way for a daft debate here is to make sure we don't agree on definitions. Then we can just go round and round in circles till someone mentions Hitler.

dennisn

briantrumpet wrote:

dennisn wrote:

I would note that there are other types of cycling than this so called "endurance" cycling.

We've been here before.

We've been lots of places before, but hey it's a forum. How many times have people wrote in asking what's the best stem?

briantrumpet

dennisn wrote:

We've been lots of places before, but hey it's a forum. How many times have people wrote in asking what's the best stem?

True, but normally it's not the same people/person going back over the same stuff.

dennisn

briantrumpet wrote:

dennisn wrote:

We've been lots of places before, but hey it's a forum. How many times have people wrote in asking what's the best stem?

True, but normally it's not the same people/person going back over the same stuff.

What about all the LA stuff? Same people, same stuff, over and over. :?

briantrumpet

dennisn wrote:

What about all the LA stuff? Same people, same stuff, over and over. :?

In that case it goes on and on as we don't REALLY know what the evidence is. In the case in this thread the science and evidence seems to lie fairly strongly in one direction, but the debate is only kept going ad nauseam by using different definitions of 'strength' and 'endurance'. If there were anything new from the previous 18-page debate, it might be interesting.