Russians Doping.

rick_chasey

iainf72 wrote:

Does anyone actually think we see team wide doping now.... I can't see it.

Katusha are dodgy but I doubt they handed him a needle loaded with EPO.

I don't think they dig very deep at all.

rickyrider

prawny wrote:

Have they tested the paper for drips of sweat and/or gunshot residue?

Ha! My thoughts exactly.

LangerDan

Isn't that Cav's handwriting?

iainf72

LangerDan wrote:

Isn't that Cav's handwriting?

Surely it would just say "me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me" if it was?

greasedscotsman

iainf72 wrote:

LangerDan wrote:

Isn't that Cav's handwriting?

Surely it would just say "me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me" if it was?

Looks like it's been written with a pen, not a crayon!

dave_1

Rick Chasey wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

Does anyone actually think we see team wide doping now.... I can't see it.

Katusha are dodgy but I doubt they handed him a needle loaded with EPO.

I don't think they dig very deep at all.

I don't think there is active team wide doping but there can be a passive attitude. I guess it's individuals or small circles in teams, but not 20 riders on the program

andrewjoseph

doping may not be team wide, or even with the managers assistance, but surely the docs, managers and the rest of the team will be aware of improvements/changes after that w/e away at the 'in-laws'.

If they are monitoring their riders I can't see how they can claim they didn't know.

gregster04

Personally I'm just glad he hasn't come up with a million and one excuses a la Valverde, Di Luca etc

Possibly Katusha have prompted him somewhat of course but at least he's taken it like a man

frenchfighter

I admire his admission. Good man.

Tusher

How odd.

I hurl abuse at those who make up ludicrous excuses, and then when a spontaneous confession comes along I don't quite buy it.

I think it's the thought of a darkened room, a single bulb being shone in his face, and the words dictated to him.

iainf72

What is the protocol for admitting it that we as fans would approve of?

Carving "guilty" into your arm with a chain ring?

Having a crap haircut and weeping about it on TV years after the fact? ((c) Zabel)

Pointing the finger at everyone and blaming them?

Or just talking about mistakes?

r0bh

Tusher wrote:

How odd.

I hurl abuse at those who make up ludicrous excuses, and then when a spontaneous confession comes along I don't quite buy it.

I think it's the thought of a darkened room, a single bulb being shone in his face, and the words dictated to him.

Joe Lindsey is thinking along similar lines http://bicycling.com/blogs/boulderreport/2012/04/17/katusha-doping-positive-and-galimzyanov-confession-letter-leave-unresolved-questions/

RichN95.

iainf72 wrote:

What is the protocol for admitting it that we as fans would approve of?

Bernard Kohl - "Yes I did it. I've been doing it for years. I'm retiring" (and meaning it). I respect him for that.

andrewjoseph

I think the protocol should involve giving names of the people involved ('cos it's very difficult to put an iv in yourself), where the drugs come from, where the equipment come from etc.

saying the team was not involved and that he did it alone is not much of a confession. i find it highly implausible that he: planned, bought, drugged and tested, himself without outside help.

people in the team should be aware 'something' was going on.

iainf72

Frankie Andreau just drove to the right pharmacy, bought the EPO, and injected it. I've got a fairly good idea of what a conventional EPO protocol should look like.

I think we've got to keep in mind these guys are human. And shopping other people isn't what humans do very easily. Nobody likes a grass.

Turfle

RichN95 wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

What is the protocol for admitting it that we as fans would approve of?

Bernard Kohl - "Yes I did it. I've been doing it for years. I'm retiring" (and meaning it). I respect him for that.

Similarly Roy Sentjens - "Yes I did it. I needed a new contract to support my family. I'm retiring".

Also, Thomas Frei - "Yes I did it. I would have continued to do it". Maybe with Frei it's more his efforts to come back clean, and do it as transparently as possible, that I approve of.

andrewjoseph

iainf72 wrote:

Frankie Andreau just drove to the right pharmacy, bought the EPO, and injected it. I've got a fairly good idea of what a conventional EPO protocol should look like.

Yes, but Galimzyanoff was probably microdosing to cover up some other doping method.

Was Andreau not following advice from some medics: how much, when?

I think we've got to keep in mind these guys are human. And shopping other people isn't what humans do very easily. Nobody likes a grass.

Agreed, but he was also (in my opinion) advised and encouraged to dope, probably with the reassurance that he will never be caught. I wouldn't be happy that someone had taught me to dope, helped me with logistics, reassured me that all will be well, then hides in the shadows.

Nobody likes betrayal either.

iainf72

andrewjoseph wrote:

Agreed, but he was also (in my opinion) advised and encouraged to dope, probably with the reassurance that he will never be caught. I wouldn't be happy that someone had taught me to dope, helped me with logistics, reassured me that all will be well, then hides in the shadows.

Nobody likes betrayal either.

This is why I tend to think teams don't really know what's going on. Well, they may know what's happening to a degree but they're not involved. If you chose to do it, and someone helps you so you don't kill yourself, it would be normal to feel some loyalty to that person I expect.

10 years ago it was a different story

Anonymous

Rick Chasey wrote:

FlipFlopper wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Yellow Peril wrote:

Rick, have you been awarded the "Maillot Rouge" for your name in your role as a Mod or is it just to add to the whole Russian theme of this thread? It looks very smart.

Haha.

Well I am known for my satorial elegance and red trousers, but no, I am now an admin not just a mod...

can you ban me now?

Why, what have you done?

Dunno yet. Depends whether you can ban me!

Jez mon

RichN95 wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

What is the protocol for admitting it that we as fans would approve of?

Bernard Kohl - "Yes I did it. I've been doing it for years. I'm retiring" (and meaning it). I respect him for that.

Not sure I liked that particularly, it doesn't help the sport in any real way, but then I'm a Millar fan, I like riders to be able to come back and preach about their mistakes.

Kohl just ran away from it all.

FWIW in this case, the letter seems odd to me, I can't quite put my finger on it. As far as team organised doping goes...well, I don't think I would be especially surprised, but there are different it, I should think some teams just turn a blind eye, some may even tacitly encourage it, but in the case of others, riders wanting to dope would have to hide it from their team carefully...

andrewjoseph

iainf72 wrote:

...

This is why I tend to think teams don't really know what's going on. Well, they may know what's happening to a degree but they're not involved. If you chose to do it, and someone helps you so you don't kill yourself, it would be normal to feel some loyalty to that person I expect.

10 years ago it was a different story

I don't think a team/manager can be aware 'to a degree' but divorce themselves from responsibility. they have a duty to the rider and to the team. Turning a blind eye and not wanting to know are not a good excuse for me.

Loyalty for helping you not kill yourself, is debatable. Perhaps the rider didn't want to but was coerced.

this is part of the problem for me, not enough info. Too much can be ignored or inferred.

dave_1

I think this Russian will be micro dosing like Alberto to mask transfusions..doing EPO on it's own seems too old school. Think the Russian should explain who the at least two other enablers were..1 courier and 1 Dr at least

Zabel's advice

"Erik Zabel ‏ @EteZabel · Close
I wish Denis,that he'll find Rest&that his Family&good Friends are Strong enough to help him Out in the next Months!good Luck&dont Comeback!"

LangerDan

Zabel's advice wrote:

"Erik Zabel ‏ @EteZabel · Close
I wish Denis,that he'll find Rest&that his Family&good Friends are Strong enough to help him Out in the next Months!good Luck& dont Comeback !"

I wonder if that Erik Zabel is the same Erik Zabel who was forced into admitting EPO usage, came up with some Clintonesque "I didn't inhale" line about only using it for a week and has subsequently been quite happy to work alongside other ex-riders who spent much of the '90s off their collective face on EPO?

iainf72

No no, you don't understand LangerDan, Zabel is ok, he's a friend of Cavendish's. Not a gigantic hypocrite at all.

rick_chasey

FlipFlopper wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

FlipFlopper wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Yellow Peril wrote:

Rick, have you been awarded the "Maillot Rouge" for your name in your role as a Mod or is it just to add to the whole Russian theme of this thread? It looks very smart.

Haha.

Well I am known for my satorial elegance and red trousers, but no, I am now an admin not just a mod...

can you ban me now?

Why, what have you done?

Dunno yet. Depends whether you can ban me!

When the name is red, the ban hammer is close to hand....

blazing_saddles

LangerDan wrote:

Zabel's advice wrote:

"Erik Zabel ‏ @EteZabel · Close
I wish Denis,that he'll find Rest&that his Family&good Friends are Strong enough to help him Out in the next Months!good Luck& dont Comeback !"

I wonder if that Erik Zabel is the same Erik Zabel who was forced into admitting EPO usage, came up with some Clintonesque "I didn't inhale" line about only using it for a week and has subsequently been quite happy to work alongside other ex-riders who spent much of the '90s off their collective face on EPO?

Which, even if true, shows that Zabel was ready willing and able to cheat. Clearly Erik was motivated and had both means and opportunity.
Funny how folks don't buy Galimzyanov's confession, but swallow Zabel's ludicrous piece of fiction.

iainf72 wrote:

No no, you don't understand LangerDan, Zabel is ok, he's a friend of Cavendish's. Not a gigantic hypocrite at all.

Friends/mentors of Cav have automatic entry into the Anglicized Church of Cleanliness. (Reformed)

greasedscotsman

andrewjoseph wrote:

people in the team should be aware 'something' was going on.

People I work with aren't aware of how much time I spend on this forum...

rick_chasey

greasedscotsman wrote:

andrewjoseph wrote:

people in the team should be aware 'something' was going on.

People I work with aren't aware of how much time I spend on this forum...

Exactly.

Then again, they don't dig very deep!

andrewjoseph

greasedscotsman wrote:

andrewjoseph wrote:

people in the team should be aware 'something' was going on.

People I work with aren't aware of how much time I spend on this forum...

They work/live/eat/sleep with you! :shock:

From what I've read, riders sleep two to a room when on camps or tours. Team physios/masseurs/helpers/docs/nutritionists/coaches/trainers/managers are around them a LOT. there are times when the riders is alone i know, but his job is to be around and with the team for a large part of the year.

skylla

andrewjoseph wrote:

greasedscotsman wrote:

andrewjoseph wrote:

people in the team should be aware 'something' was going on.

People I work with aren't aware of how much time I spend on this forum...

They work/live/eat/sleep with you! :shock:

From what I've read, riders sleep two to a room when on camps or tours. Team physios/masseurs/helpers/docs/nutritionists/coaches/trainers/managers are around them a LOT. there are times when the riders is alone i know, but his job is to be around and with the team for a large part of the year.

Not only that, but my colleagues (team members in modern jargon) would surely notice a sudden spike in performance - perhaps after a week of firefox abstinence, my equivalent of a w/e at "the in-laws in that remote village without electronic communications"