Bicycle weight on hills?

Yeevia
Yeevia Posts: 4
edited April 2012 in Commuting chat
I know that the weight of a bicycle has a negligible impact on overall speed but how big a difference does it make for going up hills? I'm about to buy a road touring bike for a 14 mile commute (and also for fun) in a hilly area. I'm considering a Raleigh Royal but I've read folk saying it's really heavy and as much as I enjoy getting a decent workout, I don't want to make hills any harder than they need to be. What say ye internet?pet.gif
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Comments

  • Wheelspinner
    Wheelspinner Posts: 6,677
    If you already have a bike, do an experiment. Ride it up a local hill, then try again with a brick or two in your backpack, and see if there's a noticeable difference in effort required. (My guess is yes there will be).

    But, beware of folks saying bike A is "really" heavy - in comparison to what? A Cannondale EVO? Or a similar touring bike from another manufacturer? If the latter, may be worth considering the alternatives, but otherwise it's a pointless comment TBH. My MTB is really heavy compared to my roadie, but so what?
    Open One+ BMC TE29 Seven 622SL On One Scandal Cervelo RS
  • SimonAH
    SimonAH Posts: 3,730
    If you would like the definitive answer you are welcome to come round and have a go on the pedicab. On the flat it is effortless, going up even the slightest incline finds you racking down the gearing and glowing like a racehorse.

    Of course, 'spinner is totally correct, it is a matter of degrees.
    FCN 5 belt driven fixie for city bits
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    Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast.
  • scrumpydave
    scrumpydave Posts: 143
    What you have to remember is there's nothing more satisfying than scalping a carbon roadie on a climb whilst riding a tank.
    Riding the Etape du Tour for Beating Bowel Cancer - click to donate http://bit.ly/P9eBbM
  • optimisticbiker
    optimisticbiker Posts: 1,657
    Yeevia wrote:
    I know that the weight of a bicycle has a negligible impact on overall speed but how big a difference does it make for going up hills? I'm about to buy a road touring bike for a 14 mile commute (and also for fun) in a hilly area. I'm considering a Raleigh Royal but I've read folk saying it's really heavy and as much as I enjoy getting a decent workout, I don't want to make hills any harder than they need to be. What say ye internet?pet.gif
    Some, but not as much as your body weight... unless you are a skinny one! Realistically the difference in climbing a hill between a 8kg and a 15kg bike for an 80kg rider is about 8% effort, or roughly the increase in effort needed to maintain 21mph instead of 20mph on the flat.
    Invacare Spectra Plus electric wheelchair, max speed 4mph :cry:
  • team47b
    team47b Posts: 6,425
    OptimisticBiker wrote:
    Yeevia wrote:
    I know that the weight of a bicycle has a negligible impact on overall speed but how big a difference does it make for going up hills? I'm about to buy a road touring bike for a 14 mile commute (and also for fun) in a hilly area. I'm considering a Raleigh Royal but I've read folk saying it's really heavy and as much as I enjoy getting a decent workout, I don't want to make hills any harder than they need to be. What say ye internet?pet.gif
    Some, but not as much as your body weight... unless you are a skinny one! Realistically the difference in climbing a hill between a 8kg and a 15kg bike for an 80kg rider is about 8% effort, or roughly the increase in effort needed to maintain 21mph instead of 20mph on the flat.

    Really useful/informative answer, thanks.

    What would be the difference in the figures if the rider weight was 60kg not 80?
    my isetta is a 300cc bike
  • SimonAH
    SimonAH Posts: 3,730
    edited April 2012
    It would then be roughly 10.3% - which is significant.

    A better way of looking at it is that on a ten mile climb you would be effectively climbing 11 miles. Personally I'd say that that is a big difference.....
    FCN 5 belt driven fixie for city bits
    CAADX 105 beastie for bumpy bits
    Litespeed L3 for Strava bits

    Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast.
  • kelsen
    kelsen Posts: 2,003
    Is it faster climbing with the bidon in the holder or in your back pocket?
  • bigmat
    bigmat Posts: 5,134
    kelsen wrote:
    Is it faster climbing with the bidon in the holder or in your back pocket?

    Is it faster to drink the contents of the bidon or leave it in the bottle?

    Seriously, I find that a lighter bike makes a big difference on the hills. As luck would have it, I weigh approximately 80kg, my best bike weighs approx 8kg (well, 7.5kg) and my mountain bike weighs approx 15kg. I can confirm that hills are a LOT harder on the latter. 8%? I would say more - maybe there is a placebo effect riding a skinny race bike, and obviously there are issues with tyres, aerodynamics etc. I can actually feel a significant difference between best road bike and winter road bike (approx 10kg) as well though.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/41991871@N ... otostream/
  • daviesee
    daviesee Posts: 6,386
    kelsen wrote:
    Is it faster climbing with the bidon in the holder or in your back pocket?
    Who cares about the weight?
    Your ride will be sweet without bottles and cages.
    On the other hand, the rider invariably ruins the look of a sweet bike simply by getting on it :wink:
    None of the above should be taken seriously, and certainly not personally.
  • DonDaddyD
    DonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    Ah hill climbing and the fat man. How I know the combination well.

    Technique is the supreme deciding factor in all of this.

    A lighter bike will make climbing a hill easier. However, a stiffer but slightly heavier bike IMO is easier to climb with than a light and energy sapping bike that is all flex.

    The contents of water bottle (bidon, seriously?) in the belly or back pocket is far more preferable than in the cage. Why? Weight distribution. You've already compensated for your body mass so a little more additional weight in that area isn't going to affect you as much as it would if it was positioned squarely on the bike. DDD Fact.
    Food Chain number = 4

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  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    kelsen wrote:
    Is it faster climbing with the bidon in the holder or in your back pocket?

    I take it you haven't read the Rider by Tim Krabe?


    In it he tells a story he was told about a famous Dutch pro who would put his bidon in his jersey pocket when they started climbing ;).
    _
  • kelsen
    kelsen Posts: 2,003
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    kelsen wrote:
    Is it faster climbing with the bidon in the holder or in your back pocket?

    I take it you haven't read the Rider by Tim Krabe?


    In it he tells a story he was told about a famous Dutch pro who would put his bidon in his jersey pocket when they started climbing ;).
    Points to Rick! :D Indeed I have. I was just wondering if anyone else got the reference.
    The Rider by Tim Krabbe wrote:
    Jaques Anquetil, the five-time winner of the Tour de France, used to take his water bottle out of its holder before every climb and stick it in the back pocket of his jersey. Ab Geldermans, his Dutch lieutenant, watched him do that for years, until finally he couldn't stand it any more and asked him why. And Anquetil explained.

    A rider, said Anquetil, is made up of two parts, a person and a bike. The bike, of course, is the instrument the person uses to go faster, but its weight also slows him down. That really counts when the going gets tough, and in climbing the thing to do is to make sure the bike is as light as possible. A good way to do that is: take the bidon out of its holder.

    So, at the start of every climb, Anquetil moved his water bottle from its holder to his back pocket. Clear enough.
    The illustration was more about belief than whether it mattered where the bidon was
    If they'd forbidden Anquetil to put his bidon in his back pocket, he would never have won the Tour de France
  • kelsen
    kelsen Posts: 2,003
    Great book by the way!
  • il_principe
    il_principe Posts: 9,155
    Worry about bodyweight first (says the man who has always thrown cash at the problem)!

    I'm hovering around the 70KG mark at the moment, down from 74 which I held for most of last year. This is thanks to a concerted effort. Point being that to lose that 4kg on a bike would be expensive, to lose it off the body is not. So a 2012 Spesh Allez is around 10kg and costs £600. A Wilier 07 is around 6.4Kg and costs over £8000...

    Generally this weight loss seems to have coincided with an improvement in climbing. Having said that, I like all the help I can get and there's no doubt that a lighter bike helps.

    - Caveat IMHO the weight thing only really comes into play on long climbs - not the rolling hills of Southern England.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    kelsen wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    kelsen wrote:
    Is it faster climbing with the bidon in the holder or in your back pocket?

    I take it you haven't read the Rider by Tim Krabe?


    In it he tells a story he was told about a famous Dutch pro who would put his bidon in his jersey pocket when they started climbing ;).
    Points to Rick! :D Indeed I have. I was just wondering if anyone else got the reference.
    The Rider by Tim Krabbe wrote:
    Jaques Anquetil, the five-time winner of the Tour de France, used to take his water bottle out of its holder before every climb and stick it in the back pocket of his jersey. Ab Geldermans, his Dutch lieutenant, watched him do that for years, until finally he couldn't stand it any more and asked him why. And Anquetil explained.

    A rider, said Anquetil, is made up of two parts, a person and a bike. The bike, of course, is the instrument the person uses to go faster, but its weight also slows him down. That really counts when the going gets tough, and in climbing the thing to do is to make sure the bike is as light as possible. A good way to do that is: take the bidon out of its holder.

    So, at the start of every climb, Anquetil moved his water bottle from its holder to his back pocket. Clear enough.
    The illustration was more about belief than whether it mattered where the bidon was
    If they'd forbidden Anquetil to put his bidon in his back pocket, he would never have won the Tour de France

    Exactly.

    It doesn't matter where the weight is (unless it's spinning too)*




    *unless of course we are talking about handling...
    _
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Il Principe wrote:
    - Caveat IMHO the weight thing only really comes into play on long climbs - not the rolling hills of Southern England.

    Robert Millar said the very same on this forum...!
    _
  • kelsen
    kelsen Posts: 2,003
    Robert Millar posts on Bikeradar?! :shock:
  • richVSrich
    richVSrich Posts: 527
    what about wheel weight? - is it more about acceleration?

    say you have a 10kg bike, of which 2kg are the wheels, - another 10kg bike, 3kg of which are wheels - how different would that feel on the flat, and on the climbs?

    in my mind the heavier wheels would make climbing harder, because you are having to put more effort in getting them to turn?

    i do think bodyweight really helps as well - lower total bike+rider weight = less effort required getting up a hill (and thanfully im about 71kg :) ) - my theory is that even if you are a stronger rider with higher bodyweight, its still requires more energy to get up the hill even if the power-weight ratio is the same...
    Boardman Hybrid Commuter Workhorse
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    kelsen wrote:
    Robert Millar posts on Bikeradar?! :shock:


    memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=458635

    keep up.

    viewtopic.php?f=40011&t=12761877
    _
  • Greg T
    Greg T Posts: 3,266
    Il Principe wrote:
    - Caveat IMHO the weight thing only really comes into play on long climbs - not the rolling hills of Southern England.

    A man who weighs 70kg can have no opinion on the issue of weight and climbing in rolling hills of Southern England.

    None.

    A handicap race between me and you would have me this big puppy to your back

    Calor%206kg%20Propane.jpg

    (yes I know it says 6kg but that is the weight of teh gas the bottle weighs another 7kg)

    and racing you up that "not nearly as hard as everyone makes out" steady climb of Box Hill . . .

    Let's see you give me a load of guff about weight not making a difference then . .
    Fixed gear for wet weather / hairy roadie for posing in the sun.

    What would Thora Hurd do?
  • richVSrich
    richVSrich Posts: 527
    the thing is tho, its not just "dead weight" is it, if you weigh more - the 13 kg extra you're carrying is partly muscle surely ... :)
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  • SimonAH
    SimonAH Posts: 3,730
    Handling aside, wheel weight will only affect acceleration not ability to climb when considered as a fraction of the overall weight of frame and wheel combination.
    FCN 5 belt driven fixie for city bits
    CAADX 105 beastie for bumpy bits
    Litespeed L3 for Strava bits

    Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast.
  • Greg T
    Greg T Posts: 3,266
    richVSrich wrote:
    the thing is tho, its not just "dead weight" is it, if you weigh more - the 13 kg extra you're carrying is partly muscle surely ... :)

    Stuff him, anyone who weighs 70kgs deserves some round abuse
    Fixed gear for wet weather / hairy roadie for posing in the sun.

    What would Thora Hurd do?
  • il_principe
    il_principe Posts: 9,155
    Greg T wrote:
    :cry::cry::cry:
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    If I'm 55kg and I keep up with most people on the flats does that make me some kind of all round hero?
    _
  • SimonAH
    SimonAH Posts: 3,730
    You weigh 120lb Rick??? I have a piece of advice for you. DO NOT USE AN UMBRELLA IN WINDY CONDITIONS.
    FCN 5 belt driven fixie for city bits
    CAADX 105 beastie for bumpy bits
    Litespeed L3 for Strava bits

    Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    SimonAH wrote:
    You weigh 120lb Rick??? I have a piece of advice for you. DO NOT USE AN UMBRELLA IN WINDY CONDITIONS.

    You might as well be talking gibberish.

    All I know is in Man vs. Food, if it's over 5lb he'll struggle.
    _
  • the_fuggler
    the_fuggler Posts: 1,228
    I thought the explanation on the Robert Millar thread was good. It explains why, as an 80kg beer-loving 5' 10" late-30 something chap, I can deploy 'teh power awesum' for about 2 minutes on a hill and beat my 65kg not-quite-loving-the-beer-as-much chum quite easily. However, when the hill goes on for more than about 5 minutes, I'm left in the dust.

    I still want a new lighter bike though.
    FCN 3 / 4
  • Greg T
    Greg T Posts: 3,266
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    All I know is in Man vs. Food, if it's over 5lb he'll struggle.

    I feel ill watching some of those size challenges . . .

    I saw him try for the Vaca Acosta Challenge A lb of fries covered with 6lb of steak, cheese and mushroom sauce . . . he onlty did 3/4s I felt like hurling, couldn't stop watching though . . .
    Fixed gear for wet weather / hairy roadie for posing in the sun.

    What would Thora Hurd do?
  • richVSrich
    richVSrich Posts: 527
    Greg T wrote:
    richVSrich wrote:
    the thing is tho, its not just "dead weight" is it, if you weigh more - the 13 kg extra you're carrying is partly muscle surely ... :)

    Stuff him, anyone who weighs 70kgs deserves some round abuse


    ...if im 71kg - am I safe??? :P
    Boardman Hybrid Commuter Workhorse

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