n+0 Titanium?

okgo

pitchshifter wrote:

okgo wrote:

iPete wrote:

Thanks, sounds like going Ti is n+1 territory.

The issue now is, why is there a massive gap in carbon frame prices. They are either at the 'bargain' P-X/Ribble end of the scale or super expensive, there isn't much between £600-£1000.

Go used. Get top end for middle of the road money.

You would drop £800+ on a used carbon frame you would use everyday without a warranty?

I have spent that much yeh.

And I don't use it everyday, but use it for races.

pitchshifter

okgo wrote:

pitchshifter wrote:

You would drop £800+ on a used carbon frame you would use everyday without a warranty?

I have spent that much yeh.

And I don't use it everyday, but use it for races.

Doesn't really answer the question, but even for using it for just races I would say is pretty risky.

spasypaddy

no chance would i buy 2nd hand carbon, you cant see if theres an internal crack that may have developed through misuse. off a clubmate/friend yes but not random off the internet.

okgo

pitchshifter wrote:

okgo wrote:

pitchshifter wrote:

You would drop £800+ on a used carbon frame you would use everyday without a warranty?

I have spent that much yeh.

And I don't use it everyday, but use it for races.

Doesn't really answer the question, but even for using it for just races I would say is pretty risky.

It does answer the question though. YES is the answer. I would. And racing is 100x more risky than commuting.

Why not? Beats paying £2k for the same thing.

As they say don't race what you can't replace. And also carbon is totally repairable, as are carbon wheels, so worst case I have to get it repaired.

symo

I went the Ti route, over a year ago when PX were doing the Lynskey manufacturered frames, with full ultegra 6700 and a pair of model B wheels for under 2k. Road the 2010 L2P on it and it was magic, lovely and compliant for all day comfort and great under acceleration, got off it everyday without problems.

I own a Kiron Scandium too which is the trainer as such, as well as a Raleigh Team Banana (manufactured from lead gaspipes) which sits on the Turbo as well as my Genesis Day One daily fixed gear commuter.

In terms of ride, it is almost perfect, it is planted when decending and absorbs a lot of the bumps that come with riding on our perfect roads :shock: . Compared to the Kiron it is a lot less Skitish (and the Kiron is not unstable to say the least). It comes out in the summer/drier weather as despite it being Ti, I can't afford to replace Ultegra bits and pieces on a whim. I would like to race it as the frame is easy to repair compared to Carbon and the position for me is over the bars with a sloping back and is all day comfortable, but a lot of that was down to having Simon at Colin Lewis Cycles put the bike together out of the box for me (for an extremely reasonable fee). The bike could easily be made lighter by component replacement (eg getting rid of the alu seat pin and replacing it with Carbon) and that could make it into a great climbing steed.

I can't really comapre it to the bike I would like to use for Sportives which would be a Cervelo R3, which I have test ridden multiple times but have yet to be able to afford, the R3 is desgned to be compliant and light, whereas the Ti is admitedly designed to a price point but is light enough in comparison, but would be better suited to club rides and throwing down the road in the event of a crash.

Horses for courses and all that; PX have Ti frames at the moment by Van Nicholas instead of Lynskey, but the material and geometry is the same as the Lynskey bikes so you wouldn't be going far wrong.

Hand on heart though I would love the R3 or a handmade bike from Enigma. In fact on reflection probably an Enigma Excel for the money with Ultegra DI2.

rick_chasey

What is the ride of a Ti bike like?

I've only ever ridden Aluminium & steel, with the exception of a couple days in the Pyrenees on a PX Carbon.

pitchshifter

okgo wrote:

It does answer the question though. YES is the answer. I would. And racing is 100x more risky than commuting.

Why not? Beats paying £2k for the same thing.

As they say don't race what you can't replace. And also carbon is totally repairable, as are carbon wheels, so worst case I have to get it repaired.

I think you're missing the point, iPete will have one bike to do everything. Having your carbon frame repaired should it need it would be inconvenient, costly and seriously damages any residual value it may hold should he come to sell it.

I wouldn't say carbon is "totally repairable" either, I imagine it highly depends on where the damage is..

okgo

Well riding it every day isn't going to be any worse than racing on it, is it. If it fails it fails.

And from what I've been told by others, some of the carbon places out there can do nearly anything these days, so that's re-assuring.

Still, I'm happy, as are the hundreds of others that buy second hand and save ££££, look on this very forum, MANY top end bikes get sold, you can't wonder what if about every little thing IMO.

asprilla

My two main bikes are my Burls and my Scott CR1, Ti and carbon respectively.

I love both of them, but for different reasons. The Burls is undoubtably heavier in every area (wheels, frame, groupset, ...) but then it's built to by my commuter and my poor weather club runner. I'd happily ride it in sportives and, if I was inclined, I'd also ride it in races. This is mainly because it is, I think, sturdier than carbon, easier to repair and the groupset on it is cheaper to replace. Not sure if I'd take the guards off to race.

The CR1 is quick and fantastic fun, and the position is identical to the Burls, but it's not quite as comfortable as the Ti. This is partially down to fatter tyres on the Ti, but also because CR1 is made to a bit less compliant and that's what I want from it.

Not sure if I have a point with this. Just rambling.

clarkey cat

Just showing off

FTFY

I am currently in discussions with the wife about getting one of the Burls custom steel frames. Was it an easy process? Did you go through Sigma (IIRC)?

asprilla

clarkey cat wrote:

Just showing off

FTFY

I am currently in discussions with the wife about getting one of the Burls custom steel frames. Was it an easy process? Did you go through Sigma (IIRC)?

I spoke to Justin about the steel frames and at the time he wasn't actually producing them due to lack of time. He also told me that his steel frames are going to be about 30% more than his Ti frames!

I got fitted for my Scott at Sigma and then rode it for about 3 months, had some tweaks done and then sent those details to Justin and told him what I wanted. He produced a design and raised some issues about toe overlap if I was putting guards on, so he made a few changes and sent the design back. I agreed to the second draft and that was it.

If I was going it again the only change I would make would be to get a disc brake mount added just to give me the option to upgrade later.

pitchshifter

okgo wrote:

Well riding it every day isn't going to be any worse than racing on it, is it. If it fails it fails.

And from what I've been told by others, some of the carbon places out there can do nearly anything these days, so that's re-assuring.

Still, I'm happy, as are the hundreds of others that buy second hand and save ££££, look on this very forum, MANY top end bikes get sold, you can't wonder what if about every little thing IMO.

I am sure I recall you saying you felt "guilty" commuting on your S2 ? Why was that? Why don't you ride it everyday?

Everyones attitude to risk is different and no doubt you're happy with your decision, its still in one piece

okgo

Because its undoubtedly seen as tosserish to commute on a few thousand pound bike (whether it should be or not) and also it was so clean and fresh . And its not what I bought it for, not to mention that as soon as you ride something like that, people want to race you and prove themselves etc.

BUT if I had one bike and I wanted it to do the lot then I'd probably still buy a similar level frame second hand, but wouldn't ride Zipps. Asprilla used to commute on a cervelo s1 (still a £1000 frame remember) and its fine, just got to think about the bits you hand off it as they take the brunt of the roads!

clarkey cat

He also told me that his steel frames are going to be about 30% more than his Ti frames!

So what you're kind of saying is that I'm actually saving money by ordering a custom ti frame.

The wife sees through man-maths now with no problem at all. If any sentence starts with 'Basically...' while my hands are splayed open ready to perform some rudimentary mathematics on my fingers, she knows what coming.

veronese68

clarkey cat wrote:

He also told me that his steel frames are going to be about 30% more than his Ti frames!

So what you're kind of saying is that I'm actually saving money by ordering a custom ti frame.

The wife sees through man-maths now with no problem at all. If any sentence starts with 'Basically...' while my hands are splayed open ready to perform some rudimentary mathematics on my fingers, she knows what coming.

Show her this for maths:

cjcp

Asprilla wrote:

The CR1 is quick and fantastic fun, and the position is identical to the Burls, but it's not quite as comfortable as the Ti. This is partially down to fatter tyres on the Ti, but also because CR1 is made to a bit less compliant and that's what I want from it.

Agreed. The CR1 is brilliant to commute on. I've got the replacement components to put on the alu Sigma, but I'm not exactly rushing to do that.

supersonic

Ti is stiffer than steel, but not as stiff at aluminium.
(obviously this is a generalisation and doesn't take into account the various high spec aerospace alloys)

Do you mean frames in general, or the material? As the modulus of elasticity of steel is greater than titanium, which in turn is greater than aluminium. How the frame ends up overall depends on the tube profiles (taking into account the materials properties).

Some of the stiffest frames I have ridden have been ti and steel, simply due to oversizing an already stiff material. Likewise are some very compliant alu frames out there, but fatigue becomes a problem.

attica

Just to add to the confusion -

I've recently upgraded from a 5 or 6 year old Giant TCR2 (it has very subtle T-Mobile branding if that helps put a date on it) to a Cervelo R3 from 2012. They are both Carbon frames and the Giant was no slouch in it's day.

I have to say though that the Cervelo is another leap up again, carbon weave technology has come a long way and the stiffness, responsiveness and comfort are all way better (did a sportive on it at the weekend and still felt comfortable at 90 miles*)

I'd add to the word of caution about 2nd hand carbon frames though - unless you can be sure that they haven't been crashed. When carbon fails it does so catastrophically.

*may have had something to do with hanging back for a team mate who had severe cramps and a tiny tiny bladder :evil:

Anonymous

I ahve had a re-shuffle, and now commute on a litespeed Siena, crud catchers and full ultegra. This was my best/event bike for 4 years and I commuted then on an alloy scott speedster. I now have a carbon felt for racing/events and commuting on the litespeed, racing on the felt is the best combination for me. The litespeed has paid for itself over and over and the frame is still A1.

iPete

I shouldn't read reviews but most Ti bikes are rated as 'slower' but that's hard to quantify. When people go on about a bike being faster are we talking a few seconds on say a lap of Richmond Park that only a pro rider could exploit or something of actual significance?

Anyway, have fitted a carbon seatpost to the Allez and it is once again bliss to ride and upgrade fever has subsided, for now anyway.

dhope

iPete wrote:

Anyway, have fitted a carbon seatpost to the Allez and it is once again bliss to ride and upgrade fever has subsided, for now anyway.

Careful, carbon abhors a carbon vacuum and will do its utmost to draw other carbon components to it. You may not be strong enough to resist.

iPete

dhope wrote:

iPete wrote:

Anyway, have fitted a carbon seatpost to the Allez and it is once again bliss to ride and upgrade fever has subsided, for now anyway.

Careful, carbon abhors a carbon vacuum and will do its utmost to draw other carbon components to it. You may not be strong enough to resist.

Spent much of the ride thinking I need a torque wrench to fit a carbon stem! It's started.. :oops:

cjcp

iPete wrote:

I shouldn't read reviews but most Ti bikes are rated as 'slower' but that's hard to quantify. When people go on about a bike being faster are we talking a few seconds on say a lap of Richmond Park that only a pro rider could exploit or something of actual significance?

A club mate of mine - Fuji Mackers on here - dropped me like a hot rock on ADH last year, and he rides a Ti frame (very nice it is, too). From rider to rider, it's all in the legs and lungs to a large extent.

asprilla

cjcp wrote:

iPete wrote:

I shouldn't read reviews but most Ti bikes are rated as 'slower' but that's hard to quantify. When people go on about a bike being faster are we talking a few seconds on say a lap of Richmond Park that only a pro rider could exploit or something of actual significance?

A club mate of mine - Fuji Mackers on here - dropped me like a hot rock on ADH last year, and he rides a Ti frame (very nice it is, too). From rider to rider, it's all in the legs and lungs to a large extent.

Is that the bloke called Dave who rides that Ti Raleigh? I used to try and keep up with him down Castlenau. Futile.

supersonic

I reckon if I got a number of frames of different materials, and you couldn't see them, you would have hard time telling what was what just by riding them.

walkingbootweather

supersonic wrote:

I reckon if I got a number of frames of different materials, and you couldn't see them, you would have hard time telling what was what just by riding them.

I'd take that challenge. I know that design and gauge play a big part and that this is a huge generalistation, but my Ti frame rides very different to my steel frame. I have found good alumminuim frames to be fast but noticebly harsher. Carbon frames feel very different again. It isn't just the weight and the stiffness. Steel is real. Titanium is surreal.

cjcp

Asprilla wrote:

cjcp wrote:

iPete wrote:

I shouldn't read reviews but most Ti bikes are rated as 'slower' but that's hard to quantify. When people go on about a bike being faster are we talking a few seconds on say a lap of Richmond Park that only a pro rider could exploit or something of actual significance?

A club mate of mine - Fuji Mackers on here - dropped me like a hot rock on ADH last year, and he rides a Ti frame (very nice it is, too). From rider to rider, it's all in the legs and lungs to a large extent.

Is that the bloke called Dave who rides that Ti Raleigh? I used to try and keep up with him down Castlenau. Futile.

Brian. Commutes on a SS.

supersonic

walkingbootweather wrote:

supersonic wrote:

I reckon if I got a number of frames of different materials, and you couldn't see them, you would have hard time telling what was what just by riding them.

I'd take that challenge. I know that design and gauge play a big part and that this is a huge generalistation, but my Ti frame rides very different to my steel frame. I have found good alumminuim frames to be fast but noticebly harsher. Carbon frames feel very different again. It isn't just the weight and the stiffness. Steel is real. Titanium is surreal.

Certainly would be an interesting experiment. I think with MTBs, which I am more used to, the variations of ride given a material can be quite marked: some toughened up steel and ti frames that can take long travel forks are pretty brutal to ride and offer none of the 'qualities' people associate with them. Carbon, depending on lay up and weave can damp high frequency vibrations regardless of inherant stiffness of the tubing (as can the forming in some alu tubes).

By far the stiffest and most uncomfortable frames I have ridden have been steel.

spasypaddy

having ridden three different bikes over the past 24 hours. i can definitely say that each of my bikes ride very very differently

walkingbootweather

spasypaddy wrote:

having ridden three different bikes over the past 24 hours. i can definitely say that each of my bikes ride very very differently

But is that due to frame material, design, fork, wheels, tyres, contact points or what?

I'm happy to conceed that for a MTB, the suspension and knobbly tyres have a bigger influence on ride, but for a road bike the frame material used definately alters the ride characteristics.