n+0 Titanium?

iPete

I realise the formula should throw up an error but I'm getting seriously itchy about upgrading my Allez frame and building something that's a little special, far more unique and a capable ride.

Does anyone here ride a titanium frame all year round? I've only room for 1 roadie that can do the commute, long weekend rides and a few races. The Van Nicholas range looks awesome, owners seem to love them but can you justify going ti after say a much cheaper P-X carbon frame?

supersonic

I'm finding it very hard to justify paying for titanium, unless you have tested and love the thing. With carbon being cheaper, lighter and if done right, stronger (in some respects), more easily repairable (if it does actually break), and with designers being able to tune in flex and anti vibration, I can't see much of a future for Ti frames in bikes.

cjcp

I ummmed and arrrred about this last year. Went carbon, for some of the reasons Supersonic mentioned.

roger_merriman

Any chance of being able to test ride the bike?

how and what the bike is made for will have more effect than just the material.

i've gone worse i'm splitting the pure roadie i.e. going from 3 to 2 bikes, space being the main issue.

jonny_trousers

If you've got the money then why not, but if not...

Go steel.

spasypaddy

id have a Ti frame for donkey work (winter/commute) but you'd never take my carbon best bike away from me.

iPete

hmmm, I think it's the look I can't get away from but a PX RT-57 is £250 cheaper and 0.5kg lighter, that'd make going ti very hard to swallow! [Do you need a whole new crank to go BB30 or just a new BB?]

roger what you ending up with, a roadie and a ss?

spasypaddy would you take your carbon ride out in deep winter after the gritters have left a layer of black salty gunk on the roads? That's the dilemma.

spasypaddy

just dont buy a PX is my only other bit of input

rjsterry

Ti seems to be the material of choice for the high end bespoke frame builder. Most of the hand-built stuff you see at NAHBS or the European equivalent is either some sort of steel or Ti. So if you are an odd shape (i.e. would benefit from custom geometry - the Allez suggests not) or have a thing about hand-built, the Ti might be for you.

iPete

Thanks, sounds like going Ti is n+1 territory.

The issue now is, why is there a massive gap in carbon frame prices. They are either at the 'bargain' P-X/Ribble end of the scale or super expensive, there isn't much between £600-£1000.

pitchshifter

If you're doing a 40 mile a day commute plus extra miles on the weekend you want something reliable, something that can deal with anything and comes with a very good warrenty.

I was under the impression a good titanium frame will outlast the rider where carbon does fatigue and is more likely to fail over time, thats where the warranty comes in handy..

Not sure what the quality difference is like between a high end carbon frame and a planet x/ribble frame though..

spasypaddy

pitchshifter as someone that went from a PX frame to a Look 695 i can tell you that the difference is worlds apart. until you've ridden a bike of such high levels its difficult to understand what makes it so good.

everything is just so perfect, it feels like its on rails when descending, it feels stable at speed, it is instant to accelerate. its phenomenal.

rolf_f

spasypaddy wrote:

pitchshifter as someone that went from a PX frame to a Look 695 i can tell you that the difference is worlds apart. until you've ridden a bike of such high levels its difficult to understand what makes it so good.

everything is just so perfect, it feels like its on rails when descending, it feels stable at speed, it is instant to accelerate. its phenomenal.

I'm slightly unconvinced by this. I regularly ride a Ribble Gran Fondo and a Look 585. I do like the Look more - it is lighter (the RIbble is lardier than most carbon frames) and feels sharper but I certainly don't think they are worlds apart and there is no real discernable difference in ride time or fatigue at the end of a long ride. The Ribble does give a harder ride - but the Look is renowned for the quality of the ride - but I think that if I'm honest, a lot of the difference between the two is an intangible feeling of specialness that the Look has. Whether that is worth over £1500 in frame price is up to you! The most obvious quality difference between the two is the more durable lacquer on the Look.

Most of the difference I feel is simply immediately after switching between the two bikes. And I've never once come back from a ride on the Ribble thinking "that would have been a better ride on the Look!"

Part of my willingness to spend so much on the Look was the knowledge that the lugged construction meant it was properly hand made - I like to think that my frame has taken more than 30 seconds to make and you can pretty much guarantee that with lugs! Again, it isn't really justifying £1500 to most. Look do make virtually all their frames in their own factory in Tunisia and are focussed on developing carbon technology. A lot of expensive frames are standard Taiwanese frames so there maybe genuinely no difference at all between a cheap Ribble or PX frame and a much more expensive frame with a De Rosa sticker on it.

But note I'm hugely sceptical of a lot of opinion that says, for example, such and such a top range groupset feels so much better than a mid range groupset etc.

TheStone

I've got Ti as my good bike (Litespeed) and I love it. Over 5 years old, 20,000km and still looks and feels brand new.
Very comfortable ride.

I use a steel all rounder for commuting and touring.

spasypaddy

It is stiffer its as simple as that you cant question how much stiffer it is, the rear end on a PX is noodly in comparison, its definitely lighter (with the same components as well), its also more comfortable and it sure as hell handles better. i dont ride the bike any different, but it goes round corners better than the PX i had previously.

you could put me on both bikes blind folded and i'd tell you straight away which was which just from the way they ride.

roger_merriman

iPete wrote:

roger what you ending up with, a roadie and a ss?

No single speed dropped barred bike which is use for the commute, and as a road bike.

plus a hard tail MTB, I'm a MTBer than a roadie, hardly a surprise since my folks place is some distance off the road network, and until recently a road bike would of found it very hard going.

so the old roadie has had it's bits stripped just the frame left now, really.

supersonic

It is hard to quantify what is a 'good' frame - that stiff, rocket ship of a frame one man likes may be a brutally uncomfortable, twitchy ride for another. Similarly a comfy and stable ride for one may translate into a noodly sluggish bike for someone else.

I think we can all agree on lightweight, strength and durability. Flex and geo are rather more personal.

I have seen quite a lot of cracked and failed Ti frames, needs a good builder to get the most from it.

clarkey cat

Custom handbuilt steel!

rjsterry

clarkey cat wrote:

Custom handbuilt steel!

You knows it. The two-wheeled equivalent of a bespoke suit.

clarkey cat

been thinking about some tweaks to my colour scheme. My frame looks pretty similar to this - think white tape and red/black tyres looks pretty cool. Might go for that.

Sorry I-Pete - just wanted to show you some steel loveliness.

MaxwellBygraves

I've toyed with the idea of getting a Ti frame before, but never won myself over. Maybe one day, but for me I would get steel.

rolf_f

spasypaddy wrote:

It is stiffer its as simple as that you cant question how much stiffer it is, the rear end on a PX is noodly in comparison, its definitely lighter (with the same components as well), its also more comfortable and it sure as hell handles better. i dont ride the bike any different, but it goes round corners better than the PX i had previously.

you could put me on both bikes blind folded and i'd tell you straight away which was which just from the way they ride.

Aren't the PX's renowned for being a bit noodly? The Ribble is heavy because the tubes are humungous and that does make it stiff! And I'm a featherweight as well so bikes don't bend much for me anyway!

I'd agree about the blindfold thing - but it's less about direct comparison than being used to what you have; my heavy Dawes feels light after the MTB and heavy after the carbon bikes! When I'm on it it just feels nice!

rolf_f

clarkey cat wrote:

think mucky grey tape and red/black tyres looks pretty cool. Might go for that.

Fixed that for you!

okgo

iPete wrote:

Thanks, sounds like going Ti is n+1 territory.

The issue now is, why is there a massive gap in carbon frame prices. They are either at the 'bargain' P-X/Ribble end of the scale or super expensive, there isn't much between £600-£1000.

Go used. Get top end for middle of the road money.

okgo

Rolf F wrote:

spasypaddy wrote:

It is stiffer its as simple as that you cant question how much stiffer it is, the rear end on a PX is noodly in comparison, its definitely lighter (with the same components as well), its also more comfortable and it sure as hell handles better. i dont ride the bike any different, but it goes round corners better than the PX i had previously.

you could put me on both bikes blind folded and i'd tell you straight away which was which just from the way they ride.

Aren't the PX's renowned for being a bit noodly? The Ribble is heavy because the tubes are humungous and that does make it stiff! And I'm a featherweight as well so bikes don't bend much for me anyway!

I'd agree about the blindfold thing - but it's less about direct comparison than being used to what you have; my heavy Dawes feels light after the MTB and heavy after the carbon bikes! When I'm on it it just feels nice!

My Ribble was not even in the same ball park of stiffness and responsiveness that my Cervelo is. I can tell you that for sure. But then if you're light, and thus probably don't put out much power compared to a bigger rider or even a powerful rider (not sure if you are or not of course, just being hypothetical), then likely hood is that you're not going to notice that difference, as you said.

walkingbootweather

I got a titanium frame from XACD. Heard a few horror stories before going ahead but my experience was entirely favourable. Had a mate that was doing the same so we were able to share shipping and money transfer costs so ended up with a Ti frame to my exact specification for less than £400. I've got design details and photos of finished bike as a pdf document which I can share - PM me if you are interested.

Bike is great to ride and I have no reason to suppose it wouldn't stand up to the rigours of commuting, but I have tended to keep it for best and use one of my steel framed bikes for day to day commuting.

vermin

Don't know about Ti. Never really 'got it'. For me, it pales in comparison to carbon in performance terms and to steel in terms of charm/class, yet it's more expensive than both*.

On carbon, I agree with okgo. I must have tried at least a dozen different carbon frames before choosing my Cannondale. The differences are huge and I was disappointed to find that price is, to a large extent, determinative of ride quality.


*But maybe I'm just a classless Luddite.

rick_chasey

Don't viner do bespoke "handmade" carbon bikes?

pitchshifter

okgo wrote:

iPete wrote:

Thanks, sounds like going Ti is n+1 territory.

The issue now is, why is there a massive gap in carbon frame prices. They are either at the 'bargain' P-X/Ribble end of the scale or super expensive, there isn't much between £600-£1000.

Go used. Get top end for middle of the road money.

You would drop £800+ on a used carbon frame you would use everyday without a warranty?

iPete

Hmm a bit dubious about going second hand carbon.

I've been having a look around and yes one or two people have had a bad P-x experience but I'm loving the look of the upcoming Nanolight N2A, shame my Hope District wouldn't fit. Not sure it's a suitable every day frame

http://road.cc/content/news/48133-exclu ... anet-x-n2a

MattC59

This : http://www.enigmabikes.com/

Any frame will crack if it's not built well. It's all about the builder, their knowledge of the material and their design process. It's not about the material (with in reason).

Ti isn't difficult to repair, if you know what you're doing. Enigma do repairs if you go down that route and you're unfortunate enough to crack your frame.

I was riding Ti Merlin hardtail MTBs 15+ years ago with no issues, but at the same time, I know a guy who had nothing but problems with his Merlin road bike from about 9years ago.

Ti is heavier than Aluminium, but lighter than steel (v/v)
Ti is stiffer than steel, but not as stiff at aluminium.
(obviously this is a generalisation and doesn't take into account the various high spec aerospace alloys)

As for riding through the winter. There's no issue at all. Ti is very corrosion resistant, you can ride all year through the salt and crud with no effect. If you really want to, you can clean it up with a brillo pad. (assuming you have a brushed finish) It's also very tough, so it will survive a lot of abuse, knocks etc.

As for the ride. Personally, I love it. Ti has a certain 'zing' to it, for want of a better word, they feel lively with out feeling soft or flexy. A good Ti frame is similar to a good quality steel frame in ride quality.

I'm putting some cash away at the moment for an Enigma. The Mrs is making me leave my credit card at home when I go to Bespoke Bristol at the weekend