Explain this 'panache' idea to me...
tailwindhome
Posts: 19,434
This word gets thrown around the Pro Race forum quite a bit.
What I don't understand is how some riders get credit for showing 'panache' while other gets condemned as 'wheelsucker's or boring....when in reality each is only playing to their individual strengths.
What I don't understand is how some riders get credit for showing 'panache' while other gets condemned as 'wheelsucker's or boring....when in reality each is only playing to their individual strengths.
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
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TailWindHome wrote:This word gets thrown around the Pro Race forum quite a bit.
What I don't understand is how some riders get credit for showing 'panache' while other gets condemned as 'wheelsucker's or boring....when in reality each is only playing to their individual strengths.
It's the flamboyence/confidence the win is taken in / the ride shown.
For example.
Cancellara's Strade Bianchi win this weekend was 'panache'.
He attacked audaciously and with such confidence that he could hold off everyone else. A more extreme example is his '10 Roubaix win or Schleck's Galibier win.
It's partly the way they race and hold themselves on a bike. No gasping for air, no sign of weakness, just confidence to take risks and be flamboyant - yet still be in a good chance to win it.
That's how I understand it anyway.0 -
I think you could say it's when you do more than is necessary. So attacking "just because" or to show you're strongest, rather than because you have to. The sensible approach is to do no more than required to winFckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0
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Rick Chasey wrote:TailWindHome wrote:This word gets thrown around the Pro Race forum quite a bit.
What I don't understand is how some riders get credit for showing 'panache' while other gets condemned as 'wheelsucker's or boring....when in reality each is only playing to their individual strengths.
It's the flamboyence/confidence the win is taken in / the ride shown.
For example.
Cancellara's Strade Bianchi win this weekend was 'panache'.
He attacked audaciously and with such confidence that he could hold off everyone else. A more extreme example is his '10 Roubaix win or Schleck's Galibier win.
It's partly the way they race and hold themselves on a bike. No gasping for air, no sign of weakness, just confidence to take risks and be flamboyant - yet still be in a good chance to win it.
That's how I understand it anyway.
I think I get it.
That said Cancellara's '10 Roubaix win is a good example of the (under educated) point I'm making. His best chance of winning was to turn the race into a 40km time trial so he employed that strategy.
Schleck/Contador want to turn every race into a steep climb. Schelck's solo break is panache but Evans TT isn't
The most audacious riding I've seen in recent times was Thor's attack in the mountains to gather green jersey points and his 2nd(?) stage win in last years tour.“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
TailWindHome wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:TailWindHome wrote:This word gets thrown around the Pro Race forum quite a bit.
What I don't understand is how some riders get credit for showing 'panache' while other gets condemned as 'wheelsucker's or boring....when in reality each is only playing to their individual strengths.
It's the flamboyence/confidence the win is taken in / the ride shown.
For example.
Cancellara's Strade Bianchi win this weekend was 'panache'.
He attacked audaciously and with such confidence that he could hold off everyone else. A more extreme example is his '10 Roubaix win or Schleck's Galibier win.
It's partly the way they race and hold themselves on a bike. No gasping for air, no sign of weakness, just confidence to take risks and be flamboyant - yet still be in a good chance to win it.
That's how I understand it anyway.
I think I get it.
That said Cancellara's '10 Roubaix win is a good example of the (under educated) point I'm making. His best chance of winning was to turn the race into a 40km time trial so he employed that strategy.
Schleck/Contador want to turn every race into a steep climb. Schelck's solo break is panache but Evans TT isn't
The most audacious riding I've seen in recent times was Thor's attack in the mountains to gather green jersey points and his 2nd(?) stage win in last years tour.
Yeah, that's the kind of thing.
It's also about the excitement the ride generates.0 -
It's a way of justifying putting in loads of unsuccessful attacks for every victory you achieve
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It also seems to be about the rider who does it. Lance Armstrong probably won a similar number of big mountain stages as Marco Pantani, but Pantani is often held up as an example of panache, whereas Armstrong is held up as a boring, arrogant American who only cared about one race."I have a lovely photo of a Camargue horse but will not post it now" (Frenchfighter - July 2013)0
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inkyfingers wrote:It also seems to be about the rider who does it. Lance Armstrong probably won a similar number of big mountain stages as Marco Pantani, but Pantani is often held up as an example of panache, whereas Armstrong is held up as a boring, arrogant American who only cared about one race.
He was pretty risk averse.
Pantani wasn't.
It's about being seen to being confidence to take the risk and the talent and fortitude to make it stick.
It's flamboyance, but then the good to back it up.
So not Voeckler since he can't back up his attacks. 0 -
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Rick Chasey wrote:inkyfingers wrote:It also seems to be about the rider who does it. Lance Armstrong probably won a similar number of big mountain stages as Marco Pantani, but Pantani is often held up as an example of panache, whereas Armstrong is held up as a boring, arrogant American who only cared about one race.
He was pretty risk averse.
Pantani wasn't.
It's about being seen to being confidence to take the risk and the talent and fortitude to make it stick.
It's flamboyance, but then the good to back it up.
So not Voeckler since he can't back up his attacks.
Fair point, I was just trying to give an example of how peoples perceptions of a rider alter how their style is described. My example was probably too extreme (the calculating texan versus the literally unhinged Italian). A better example might be Armstrong and Contador, who despite FF's championing of him is a pretty calculating rider really."I have a lovely photo of a Camargue horse but will not post it now" (Frenchfighter - July 2013)0 -
From the Wiki link abovepanache was not necessarily a good thing and was seen by some as a suspect quality“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0
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inkyfingers wrote:Fair point, I was just trying to give an example of how peoples perceptions of a rider alter how their style is described. My example was probably too extreme (the calculating texan versus the literally unhinged Italian). A better example might be Armstrong and Contador, who despite FF's championing of him is a pretty calculating rider really.
You don't get a nickname of "the accountant" without being calculating.
Armstrong, post cancer, was someone who'd use his team to pummel the oppostion into submission then apply the coup de grace himself on the final summit finish. It was predictable, and stolen directly from Indurain before him, and a low risk strategy.
Pantani was different in that he'd attack from a long way out, i.e. the Galibier attack in 1998 which ultimately won him the Tour, or when he was already leading comfortably. It was much higher risk and, sometimes, meant he'd lose time to his rivals.
Racing has changed though and you can understand riders who ride defensively in major stage races. Coming 5th in the Tour will see them earn more in future years than winning a stage but losing 30 minutes a day later and coming in 25th.0 -
Shandy?
Yak0 -
Lets not argue that Contador does not know how to attack. I am not even going to go down that path as it is so clear. Re his calculating aspect - yes he has that, in addition to everything else. He is a total champion and doesnt have the palmares he does from luck.Contador is the Greatest0
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Ah, of course, the true definition of panache - a quality possessed by any rider that FF likes, but not by low quality, low post-count types0
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frenchfighter wrote:Lets not argue that Contador does not know how to attack. I am not even going to go down that path as it is so clear. Re his calculating aspect - yes he has that, in addition to everything else. He is a total champion and doesnt have the palmares he does from luck.
Did anyone say he wasn't an attacking rider? You can be both an attacking rider and a calculating one.
His palmares clearly wasn't built on luck. He had other assistance in putting that together.0 -
Its only a word though isn't it.
The Oxford Dictionary Online says "Flamboyant confidence of style or manner"
For "Flamboyant" it says "(of a person or their behaviour) tending to attract attention because of their exuberance, confidence, and stylishness"...
For "Exuberance" it says "the quality of being full of energy, excitement, and cheerfulness; ebullience"...
For "Ebullience" it says "the quality of being cheerful and full of energy; exuberance"...
...here's one such photo of a famous cyclist displaying that cheerfulness...
...perhaps Panache only applies when things are going someone's way I spose.0 -
frenchfighter wrote:Lets not argue that Contador does not know how to attack. I am not even going to go down that path as it is so clear. Re his calculating aspect - yes he has that, in addition to everything else. He is a total champion and doesnt have the palmares he does from luck.
I'm sure that "Special" beef has something to do with that palmares. :evil:0 -
Why does everyone pick on voeckler? He is one of the most attacking and winningest riders in the peloton.. :roll:0
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Remarkable wrote:Why does everyone pick on voeckler? He is one of the most attacking and winningest riders in the peloton.. :roll:
Just been a thread discussing him...
http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=40002&t=128390280 -
We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
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Remarkable wrote:Why does everyone pick on voeckler? He is one of the most attacking and winningest riders in the peloton.. :roll:
The first five years of his status as France's no.1 cycling hero, the biggest thing he won was a stage of the Tour of the Basque Country.Twitter: @RichN950 -
RichN95 wrote:Remarkable wrote:Why does everyone pick on voeckler? He is one of the most attacking and winningest riders in the peloton.. :roll:
The first five years of his status as France's no.1 cycling hero, the biggest thing he won was a stage of the Tour of the Basque Country.
Quite a few quality wins mentioned here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Voeckler0 -
Remarkable wrote:RichN95 wrote:The first five years of his status as France's no.1 cycling hero, the biggest thing he won was a stage of the Tour of the Basque Country.
Quite a few quality wins mentioned here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Voeckler
And in the first five years of his status as France's cycling hero (2004-2008), the biggest win (only Pro Tour win) was a stage of the Tour of the Basque Country, just like I said.Twitter: @RichN950 -
Panache = lovely plumage.0
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RichN95 wrote:Remarkable wrote:RichN95 wrote:The first five years of his status as France's no.1 cycling hero, the biggest thing he won was a stage of the Tour of the Basque Country.
Quite a few quality wins mentioned here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Voeckler
And in the first five years of his status as France's cycling hero (2004-2008), the biggest win (only Pro Tour win) was a stage of the Tour of the Basque Country, just like I said.
2004 1st National Road Race Champion 1st A travers le Morbihan 1st Stage 4 Route du Sud 18th Overall Tour de France Held Maillot jaune from Stage 5–14 Held Maillot blanc from Stage 5–18
2005 1st Stage 3 Four Days of Dunkirk Held Mountains classification for Stage 2 Tour de France
2006 1st Paris–Bourges 1st Stage 5 Vuelta al País Vasco 1st Overall Route du Sud 1st Stage 1
2007 1st Mountains classification Paris–Nice 1st Overall Tour du Poitou Charentes et de la Vienne 1st Grand-Prix de Plouay Ouest-France
2008 1st Overall Circuit de la Sarthe 1st Overall Grand Prix de Plumelec-Morbihan Held Mountains classification from Stages 1–5 Tour de France0 -
Some big races there, like the Grand Prix de Plumelec-Morbihan and the Tour du Poitou Charentes et de la Vienne.
I grew up dreaming of winning those two.0 -
Wow, you two (Rich and Andy), simply don't like anything or anyone. You always take the dark side, the negative side, the pedantic side, the boring side. Bloody hell.Contador is the Greatest0
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andyp wrote:Some big races there, like the Grand Prix de Plumelec-Morbihan and the Tour du Poitou Charentes et de la Vienne.
I grew up dreaming of winning those two.
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