Bring Back National Service.

Jez mon

rake wrote:

your ok so it doesnt matter?

OK, what job other than illegal cash in hand manual labour, are these people going to get? From reading that story, they're mostly here illegally, and have no papers. They won't be able to do any customer facing jobs, as they live in an underpass and will probably smell, badly.

Undoubtedly immigration has put a strain on the jobs market, but frankly if you're getting beaten in the job market by people of no fixed abode, with little access to shower facilities, no formal poof of ID or education, you've got to ask yourself some questions surely?

daviesee

Rick Chasey wrote:

daviesee wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

And re- the unemployment - specifically the youth unemployment.

Davsee, if you think it's that easy to get a job, you're quite mistaken.

Meh.
I know dozens of people in their 20s. They are all working. Edit:- Only 7 of them are work contacts.

Anecdotally, I only know one person unemployed. And that's her choice. And she is 45.

So what does that show? That you live in circles who produce employable children?

I take it they wouldn't benefit from national service?

It shows two things.
1.I live in circles where parents raise their children (mostly) with the attributes to not only to want to work but to find it.
2. There are jobs available.

Some of the youth I know are in the Forces and they would say they have benefitted massively from it.
For what it is worth I am against compulsory National Service but the ones most likely to gain are those least likely to sign up voluntarily.

I don't blame the Government (mostly - See Franks thread where I do) or the youth. I blame the parents.
You are right. It is (some of) the "baby boomer" generation at fault for not raising their children "properly". Unfortunately the people most at fault don't know what baby boomer means, or identify with it. It is a vicious downwards spiral for those in these circles.
PS. Some of the examples you give of successful youth today prove my point about aspirations and ethics. N'est-ce pas?

Pross

Not necessarily National Service but certainly get them doing community work in return for any benefits. It will get them to earn their money and hopefully teaches respect for their environment.

That said, it seems a huge generalisation of the younger generation. In my experience they aren't that much different to me at that age 15 - 25 years ago, generally a good bunch but prone to showing off in groups of friends. Possibly a bit less respectful in some cases as they know there is little anyone can do to challenge them but certainly most of the younger people I know are working hard in school, uni or employment. I've got 3 sisters in this age range, two have been to uni (one is teaching and the other is managing a coffee shop whilst waiting for a chance to train as a classical singer) and the third has worked since she was 16 despite being a single mum at 21.

rick_chasey

daviesee wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

daviesee wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

And re- the unemployment - specifically the youth unemployment.

Davsee, if you think it's that easy to get a job, you're quite mistaken.

Meh.
I know dozens of people in their 20s. They are all working. Edit:- Only 7 of them are work contacts.

Anecdotally, I only know one person unemployed. And that's her choice. And she is 45.

So what does that show? That you live in circles who produce employable children?

I take it they wouldn't benefit from national service?

It shows two things.
1.I live in circles where parents raise their children (mostly) with the attributes to not only to want to work but to find it.
2. There are jobs available.

Some of the youth I know are in the Forces and they would say they have benefitted massively from it.
For what it is worth I am against compulsory National Service but the ones most likely to gain are those least likely to sign up voluntarily.

I don't blame the Government (mostly - See Franks thread where I do) or the youth. I blame the parents.
You are right. It is (some of) the "baby boomer" generation at fault for not raising their children "properly". Unfortunately the people most at fault don't know what baby boomer means, or identify with it. It is a vicious downwards spiral for those in these circles.
PS. Some of the examples you give of successful youth today prove my point about aspirations and ethics. N'est-ce pas?

I guess I was making two issues:

The first, that all youth are lazy and feckless. That's not the case. I actually think, comparing my experiences of university to my parents experience in the '70s, that life when you're younger is so much more competitive now than it used to be > at least from a 'expects to go to university' perspective.

The 2nd is that youth unemployment has nothing to do with youth being 'lazy', and everything to do with poor job opportunities for first and 2nd jobbers.

Yossie

Put it this way (and this is a nice generalisation for the afternoon):

Generally, the stuff the forces does involves a) either doing something dangerous or b) doing something with something that is dangerous (eg a gun. Or a grenade. Or stuff that goes boom. A tank. A big ship full of guns and Marines. You get the gist).

Looking around my local high street, I would not want 90% of what I see within 200 yards of me with anything more dangerous than a blunt butter knife.

I was at a recent RSW (6 Rifles, some potential Army Commando candidates) - bearing in mind that these are people who actually voluntarily want to join the Forces, I was genuinly shocked at what I saw. I walked away shaking my head at some of the things they were doing and saying and this was before anything more dangerous than a pair of green coveralls and a numbered coloured bib had been issued to them. General fitness levels for lads and girls their ages were shockingly poor as well.

National Service died out for a number of reasons - I am sure that general f%%ktardiness (or whatever it was called back then) of the participants was one of them. Lack of desire from a Government with no money to spend on it was probably another, coupled with the Regulars not having the time/energy/motivation/(and, yes) skills to cajole a bunch of people who have no desire to be dressed in green and shouted at to do the bare minimum. Generally the Regs are too busy fighting wars/training to fight wars/getting made redundant at the moment to worry about a bunch of National Service lads.

Its not a solution: in my eyes a decent level of education from a very young age coupled with trying (somehow) to instil a sense of self worth, self pride and desire to better yourself may be the way to go. To me, this is a family/outside mentor (teacher, football coach, youth worker, that sort of jazz) thing

Quite how Britain is going to breakaway from the "I'm gonna be on the X-Factor and be famous/I wanna be a footballer's wife" culture its stuck in I don't know, but until it does all the apprenticeships/community service/further education courses aren't going to make an iota of difference.

Yes, there a re a minority who are hard working, eductated, polite, etc etc but unfortunately they do some to be a minority that are being stiffed by a majority of f%%cktards.

In the meantime, any f%%cktard norks going?

daviesee

Rick Chasey wrote:

I guess I was making two issues:

The first, that all youth are lazy and feckless. That's not the case. We can agree on not all but to me there would appear to be a rising percentage.
I actually think, comparing my experiences of university to my parents experience in the '70s, that life when you're younger is so much more competitive now than it used to be > at least from a 'expects to go to university' perspective. Possibly from that perspective given that when I left school only the top 10% expected to go to Uni but I would say that getting a job is no easier or harder. Expectations have risen possibly which would lead to greater dissappointment.
The 2nd is that youth unemployment has nothing to do with youth being 'lazy', and everything to do with poor job opportunities for first and 2nd jobbers. As I said earlier all the youngsters I know are employed. There are opportunities.

My final summary.
1. There are those driven to succeed who have found jobs or will find them. They are out there and will be okay.
2. There are those that want to work but can't find it. Time to reconsider the job or the location.
3. There are those with unrealistic expectations who end up disillusioned. Grow up and get on with it.
4. There are those that just can't be ar$ed. There is no convincing them. Maybe National service could be the answer. Probably not. I just know that forced community work will immediately be considered slave labour.

knownothingbozo

Ask the squaddies in Afghanistan whether they support the idea of national service. Relying on some ne'er do well who doesn't want to be there, to have the courage and discipline to face the enemy and do the right thing by his volunteer mates. I suspect I know the answer you'll get.
On the other hand whenever I go out on my bike I'm amazed about what a sh1t hole this country is becoming. There's enough rubbish in the hedgerows to keep several thousand unemployed people employed earning their benefits money for years. I suspect many will be merely picking up their own junk anyway.
Flamers note I am only referring to some /many, and never all.

bagpusscp

In Austria they still have National service.I know population size is vastly different.They have three types of service that the young can do.
1/ Armed
2/local services ie fire, ambulance,npt sure about the police.
3/oversea's
More details here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_Service_Abroad.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zivildienst

Stone Glider

Perhaps those enthusiastic for the return of National Service might like to discuss the idea with those who experienced it for real. Of course you will have to hurry, they will be in their seventies and starting to disintegrate. My chats with them, over the years seem to turn on the utter futility of it. They learned to skive, swing the lead, duck & dive and generally avoid responsibility/blame; waste time in industrial quantities, shirk, slack and dodge the column. They experienced monumental bureaucratic incompetence, class bias of the most blatant kind and acquired a loathing of officialdom which lingers to this day.

By the way, the Military hate the very notion of re-introduction for reasons which are painfully obvious to the slightest examination. As a cure for societies ills, it really is a dead duck.

BTW, blaming the young for the mess they find themselves in is poor. Blame the people who created the conditions in the first place, that's us folks!

Special K

I am interested to know, what behaviour you think makes them such fktards. The OP was incredulous, everyone sounds pretty excited about it, but other than the riots I can't really think of what behaviour inspired these rants. Honest question, no challenge - got any good examples?

daviesee

Special K wrote:

Honest question, no challenge - got any good examples?

Examples that would be fixed by National Service or just plain stupidty?

finchy

Special K wrote:

I am interested to know, what behaviour you think makes them such fktards. The OP was incredulous, everyone sounds pretty excited about it, but other than the riots I can't really think of what behaviour inspired these rants. Honest question, no challenge - got any good examples?

I wouldn't say that the youth of today are any worse than I can remember during my lifetime (although I'm only 32 now). I remember in the 1980s having some teenagers set their rottweiler on me with the simple instruction "kill". Luckily I was always a fast runner.

However, having lived abroad quite a bit, there is a certain type of British twunt that really, really makes me angry these days. I think it's the needless agression over here which gets me down, as this should be an absolutely top-rate country, but I often feel like we just have a large minority with really crappy attitude compared to many other nations.

Examples? Fly-tippers. The parents at my wife's primary school who send their kids in without coats in winter. My unemployed layabout neighbour, who is the picture dictionary illustration for "benefits scrounger".

timmyturbo

bagpusscp wrote:

In Austria they still have National service.I know population size is vastly different.They have three types of service that the young can do.
1/ Armed
2/local services ie fire, ambulance,npt sure about the police.
3/oversea's
More details here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_Service_Abroad.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zivildienst

I Have seen them in action , 200 spotty lads , smoking tabs waiting for a train to go and do exercises on alpine flora and forna identification etc . And is not Austria one of the countries with a worldwide top 5 quality of life . I have traveled round Austria for 3 months , i could not really work out what their main industry or employment was , but they have low un-employment in the 18-25 age group , but they have a lower birth rate than central Europe . My Dad is still bricking it 53 years later , because he bunked of his Austrian National service to join the R.A.F , the queens got a better cheaper flying club he said