Bring Back National Service.

Jez mon

verylonglegs wrote:

Well, one firm I know stopped in 2007 before the recession for the reason I've given and the more recent one decided to pay more and employ already qualified electricians and plumbers rather than put unreliable school leavers through college, so the work is still there. But hey, you just assume I don't know what I'm talking about and go right on.

Sorry, didn't mean for it to come out quite like that, but in tough economic times, apprenticeship schemes are going to be one of the easiest things to cut back on and if you're running a company, you're far more likely to say "it's due to the quality of the applicants" because saying "We have massive cash flow issues and can't afford to take on and train new staff" isn't really what any investors or employees would want to hear.

Besides surely the fact that they were able to take on experienced workers in place of apprentices implies there was a shortage of work generally, just that this particular company was still getting contracts?

timmyturbo

LETS GET THIS INTO PERSPECTIVE IN CAPS LOCK WITH A VERY SLIGHT PINCH OF SALT .
U.K WORKFORCE 36.5 MILLION ABLE BODIED PEOPLE OF WORKING AGE . 9 MILLION OF THOSE DIRECTLY AND INDIRECTLY EMPLOYED BY THE DEFENCE/F@@K UP THE WORLD TEAM . AND A REAL UNEMPLOYMENT FIGURE CLOSE TO 6 MILLION . If you have not paid enough National Insurance credits , when you claim dole you are NOT classed as unemployed in their figures . The TORY's changed the way they counted (massaged the figures ) 14 times before BLAIR , and then Labour cooked their books another 11 times .
If everybody in this country had a full time job , you would have approx 1.2 million civil servants without one who used to write out giros's and all that goes with . THE DEPARTMENT OF WORK and PENSIONS ...........IS THE 7TH biggest COMPANY ON EARTH !!!! based on employee's client and budget .

IF THERE WAS WORLD WIDE PEACE TOMORROW , BRITAIN , FRANCE , GERMANY AND THE USA WOULD BE THE POOREST COUNTRIES ON EARTH WITH THE HIGHEST UNEMPLOYMENT !

A few friends work at M.O.D abbey wood in Bristol , it is the purchasing and procurement department of the M.O.D . Its sole function is to sell our obsolete weapons to our enemies, and then use that money to buy new stuff to point at our recently supplied by us Enemies .

ITS ALL A BLOODY GAME THAT WE CANNOT STOP BECAUSE WE ALL HAVE A PRICE .

BIG LOVE PEOPLE XXX

Frank the tank

Stanley222 wrote:

tim wand wrote:

Recent applicants for positions in her store in the age group 18-25 have responded in the following.

Do you have any cash handling experience? I ve got 100% feedback on Ebay
Do you have any references I ve got 500+ friends on Facebook

Really?! That's a wind up surely!?!
In my experience most in the 18-25 age group expect a job to land in their laps, are not prepared to travel to do it and wont look at jobs unless it interests them - it's still a job so just go do it!
There are also loadsd of graduates with 'useless' degrees - I am not trying to offend anyone saying that but if you have a degree in something like engineering then there is a fiar chance of getting a job anywhere in the country. If you have one in fine arts then that surely leaves you a very small window of opportunity?!

I hear what you say about the meritocricy of various degrees and the career opportunities various ones may offer. Never the less a lot of youngsters have been sold the lie about getting a uni education when a lot of it is just to massage the unemployment figures. Also very often it's the courses you allude to as being more "worthy" that get cut back when uni's rationalise as very often they're the most expensive courses and uni's are about making money.
Fact is there is a total lack of employmnent and some government decisions (see bit late but thread) beggar belief.

bagpusscp

timmyturbo wrote:

LETS GET THIS INTO PERSPECTIVE IN CAPS LOCK WITH A VERY SLIGHT PINCH OF SALT .
U.K WORKFORCE 36.5 MILLION ABLE BODIED PEOPLE OF WORKING AGE . 9 MILLION OF THOSE DIRECTLY AND INDIRECTLY EMPLOYED BY THE DEFENCE/F@@K UP THE WORLD TEAM . AND A REAL UNEMPLOYMENT FIGURE CLOSE TO 6 MILLION . If you have not paid enough National Insurance credits , when you claim dole you are NOT classed as unemployed in their figures . The TORY's changed the way they counted (massaged the figures ) 14 times before BLAIR , and then Labour cooked their books another 11 times .
If everybody in this country had a full time job , you would have approx 1.2 million civil servants without one who used to write out giros's and all that goes with . THE DEPARTMENT OF WORK and PENSIONS ...........IS THE 7TH biggest COMPANY ON EARTH !!!! based on employee's client and budget .

IF THERE WAS WORLD WIDE PEACE TOMORROW , BRITAIN , FRANCE , GERMANY AND THE USA WOULD BE THE POOREST COUNTRIES ON EARTH WITH THE HIGHEST UNEMPLOYMENT !

A few friends work at M.O.D abbey wood in Bristol , it is the purchasing and procurement department of the M.O.D . Its sole function is to sell our obsolete weapons to our enemies, and then use that money to buy new stuff to point at our recently supplied by us Enemies .

ITS ALL A BLOODY GAME THAT WE CANNOT STOP BECAUSE WE ALL HAVE A PRICE .

BIG LOVE PEOPLE XXX

Just choked on my pop corn.Bang on the nail.We all but mere pawns......

timmyturbo

tim wand wrote:

Timmy Turbo (Firstly hows the Orange bike coming on looking forward to seeing some pics, love it so far)

I just got some carbon s bendy type forks from china 390 grams for £45 , and turned up in 2 weeks . Sending off the force calipers and other items for mirror polish and orange anodizing , i want to do it right , so probably going to get my first ride middle of April , i contacted britvic to see if they want for a tango advert , heard nothing yet . OFF TOPIC OR WHAT ??? (-:

bearfraser

and yet net migration is UP again, why dont we just shut the doors, the country is full and i'm sure they are all stealing our job's.

MaxwellBygraves

bearfraser wrote:

and yet net migration is UP again, why dont we just shut the doors, the country is full and i'm sure they are all stealing our job's.

tim_wand

bearfraser wrote:

and yet net migration is UP again, why dont we just shut the doors, the country is full and i'm sure they are all stealing our job's.

Bearfraser I thought thats exactly what you were doing in Ecosse, Hadrians wall is going up again with the SNP referendum. (If Cameron lets you have one)

Dont think you can blame immigrant workers who are willing to come in and take advantage of the few opportunities that exist if the indeginous population see it as below them because they are comfortable off the Welfare state.

Its a massive generalisation , dont think I d like to be 18-25 coming out of education and trying to find a job.
Too long we have relied on a system which is academic based and not looked at equiping our young people with vocational skills which could give them a trade or career.

Frank the tank

bearfraser wrote:

and yet net migration is UP again, why dont we just shut the doors, the country is full and i'm sure they are all stealing our job's.

Surely this has to be trolling.

Just to cheer you up bearfraser think of all the Greeks who might make their way here as their ecconomy goes into freefall. I know if I was a Greek I'd be looking to get over here, even if the weather is sh1t.

tim_wand

Did Phil no harm (HRH) They gave him the dukedom or bearfrasers best city.

rick_chasey

There's a lot of sh!t being written in this thread. A lot.

15peter20

Rick Chasey wrote:

There's a lot of sh!t being written in this thread. A lot.

Oh please put us out of our misery Rick. We're waiting for you to enlighten us all from our ignorance. Go on - I'm biting, so please go ahead.

rick_chasey

15peter20 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

There's a lot of sh!t being written in this thread. A lot.

Oh please put us out of our misery Rick. We're waiting for you to enlighten us all from our ignorance. Go on - I'm biting, so please go ahead.

It's very disappointing to see how little faith people have in the youth of today.

While you're all demanding pensions to keep your houses warm, the people who are 16-25 now will be running the country.

You'd think people would have a little perspective. Like any generation, there is a good mixture of people. Do you really think all youth are bad?

And re- the unemployment - specifically the youth unemployment.

Davsee, if you think it's that easy to get a job, you're quite mistaken.

There's a good reason why youth unemployment is around 25% here, 50% in Spain and Greece, rising in France.

Business isn't good, and as such, the risk of taking someone on with no experience is riskier than taking on someone who has the experience. Since unemployment is high anyway, there are enough people on the street with experience looking for work that those without are stuffed.

If you really think the youth unemployment is due to the youth being feckless - then you're mistaken.

What I do think is bizarre with the logic used when saying the youth are lazy is, if you are mistaken enough to think that, why do you think they are like that? Have the babyboomers just been sh!t parents?

I'm 23. I know an awful lot of young ambitious people. I'd suggest the OP's experience means he doesn't come into contact with those people.

I've got a friend who's about to start a role as corporate lawyer at 23, earning £60k. I already earn way above the average.

My girlfriend, same age, works in corporate PR, working with global tier 1 clients.

My best friend works for the MoD and just got promoted. He's now younger than the people he manages.

I have another friend who works in the Scottish parliament. Another works for DSTL. The others are doing PhDs, one in Munich, one in Berlin, one with Zurich working on pancreatic cancer. One of my oldest school friends is working for an international charity in Amsterdam.

These all fall into your bracket, and these would have all found national service a total and utter waste of time.

We worked really f*cking hard when we were students. I never took a day off, and was 9-5 in the library. I got a first to show for it. My friends did the same, which is why they are where they are. Stories you hear about lazy students drinking all the time might very well be the case at your local ex polly, or some tier 2 university - but you go to any tier 1 university and you'll see a lot students working ver very hard. I worked harder then than I do now - because business is so slow.

My age group, 23/24 also graduated in the worst recession for 80 years. It took me 300 job applications, and 40 rounds of interviews to land this job, and this is with a CV that is pretty good. First, all As at A level, captain of rowing team at 6th form, attending summits at Cambridge University, responsible for running a proper student cinemna with a £30k annual budget.

So I suggest if the OP doesn't like working with youth who are let down by the current generation in charge, who told them university was a good idea, who told them if they worked hard at school they'd get a good job at the end, but then hog them for themselves, and f*ck the economy with excessive aspirationalism, then he should do something else, rather than insist they all suffer the ritual humilation of being shouted at.

I'm more than disciplined enough. So are my peers.

Frank the tank

I would say rick chasey and Tim wand were probably born into, and move in totally different types of social cirlcles.

I appreciate I'm guessing and expect to be told to wind my neck in as I don't know either of you.

Peoples opinions/views are invariably formed by the environs they inhabit. FWIW I believe the majority of youngsters want work and are indeed good citizens and I think my daughter put every bit as much effort into her degree as rickchasey did into his. Unfortunately I'm not very well connected and can't put her onto any contacts, (not implying that's how you got on rickchasey) because of my background.

Cleat Eastwood

Frank the tank wrote:

I would say rick chasey and Tim wand were probably born into, and move in totally different types of social cirlcles.

I appreciate I'm guessing and expect to be told to wind my neck in as I don't know either of you.

Peoples opinions/views are invariably formed by the environs they inhabit. FWIW I believe the majority of youngsters want work and are indeed good citizens. Unfortunately I'm not very well connected and can't put her onto any contacts, .

Exactly what I was thinking frank. Getting a first had nothing to do with it, being in a library 24/7 has nothing to do with it if you come from a background that has always accepted (and indeed been given) second best. The worse type of class oppression you will find will always come from the middle classes, they are past masters at justifying why the world should only be seen from their eyes, real opportunity doesnt come through gaining a degree if academia is not your forte, it comes through family and wider social contacts. National service clearly is not the answer - no form of brutalising and regimented thinking ever will be - big love is indeed the answer.

daviesee

Rick Chasey wrote:

And re- the unemployment - specifically the youth unemployment.

Davsee, if you think it's that easy to get a job, you're quite mistaken.

Meh.
I know dozens of people in their 20s. They are all working. Edit:- Only 7 of them are work contacts.

Anecdotally, I only know one person unemployed. And that's her choice. And she is 45.

tim_wand

Cant comment on Ricks Status, think I got annoyed with him on here before when he suggested that a recent engineering graduate would be suited to a job in the financial sector (My arguement being along the lines of Franks "Bit Too late Post" what chance have the likes of Bombadier got if everyone wants to be bankers)

Could be wrong though, Rick could have been the graduate and not the head hunter for the financial services, in which case sorry, and Well done Rick for finding a descent job and not sloping off abroad as was the OPs response to being told they had good skills to go into finance.

I joined the Army at 16 as an apprentice and I am quite sure that if I had not I could have well gone off the rails.
I left after 9 years and feeling like I d missed out and with some money behind me decided to go to that red brick academic power house (The University of East London) .

At no point since graduation over 14 years ago did I feel that my degree has bettered my chances of employment
Here again I think is part of the problem, there seems to be a conveyor belt procession to Uni and degrees with no real substance and or application (Most definitely to help disguise youth unemployment figures)

I then joined "another government service" for ten years and now work mainly in educational support.

If you asked me whether the time I spent in the Army or the time I spent at Uni was more beneficial in finding work then the time in the Army wins hands down everytime both professionally and personally.

I just thought with the original post that it was a bit of Joined up thinking, Mass Youth unemployment, Under resourced Armed forces , and an enviroment that IMO can give young people the best training and experience available .

Just as in Franks post "Bit too late" , I really dont think those in power think things through.

We have a problem getting people worthwhile jobs , yet we let multi-billion pound defence contracts go to Korea.

shockedsoshocked

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgpa7wEAz7I

rick_chasey

daviesee wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

And re- the unemployment - specifically the youth unemployment.

Davsee, if you think it's that easy to get a job, you're quite mistaken.

Meh.
I know dozens of people in their 20s. They are all working. Edit:- Only 7 of them are work contacts.

Anecdotally, I only know one person unemployed. And that's her choice. And she is 45.

So what does that show? That you live in circles who produce employable children?

I take it they wouldn't benefit from national service?

rick_chasey

tim wand wrote:

Cant comment on Ricks Status, think I got annoyed with him on here before when he suggested that a recent engineering graduate would be suited to a job in the financial sector (My arguement being along the lines of Franks "Bit Too late Post" what chance have the likes of Bombadier got if everyone wants to be bankers)

Could be wrong though, Rick could have been the graduate and not the head hunter for the financial services, in which case sorry, and Well done Rick for finding a descent job and not sloping off abroad as was the OPs response to being told they had good skills to go into finance.

One and the same Tim.

rick_chasey

Anyway.

The solution to the problem you pose, (that a limited number of people have poor aspirations and apparently poor discipline) isn't to pack them all into the army - it's to sort it out from the roots.

In this case, the usual, boring, socio-economic stuff. British classrooms the most unruly in Western Europe? Does it have something to do with Britian also having the highest proportion of kids in poverty in Western Europe?

Probably.

Is there something to be said for looking at the education system and how it could be improved to help people who are from backgrounds who historically have fewer opportunities? Yes.

The solution isn't to give them all a gun and have them ritually humiliated for a few years.

If it worked for you great > I'm glad you volunteered. That doesn't mean it won't work for anyone, just as university won't work for everyone either.

Jez mon

tim wand wrote:

Cant comment on Ricks Status, think I got annoyed with him on here before when he suggested that a recent engineering graduate would be suited to a job in the financial sector (My arguement being along the lines of Franks "Bit Too late Post" what chance have the likes of Bombadier got if everyone wants to be bankers)

Could be wrong though, Rick could have been the graduate and not the head hunter for the financial services, in which case sorry, and Well done Rick for finding a descent job and not sloping off abroad as was the OPs response to being told they had good skills to go into finance.

I joined the Army at 16 as an apprentice and I am quite sure that if I had not I could have well gone off the rails.
I left after 9 years and feeling like I d missed out and with some money behind me decided to go to that red brick academic power house (The University of East London) .

At no point since graduation over 14 years ago did I feel that my degree has bettered my chances of employment
Here again I think is part of the problem, there seems to be a conveyor belt procession to Uni and degrees with no real substance and or application (Most definitely to help disguise youth unemployment figures)

I then joined "another government service" for ten years and now work mainly in educational support.

If you asked me whether the time I spent in the Army or the time I spent at Uni was more beneficial in finding work then the time in the Army wins hands down everytime both professionally and personally.

I just thought with the original post that it was a bit of Joined up thinking, Mass Youth unemployment, Under resourced Armed forces , and an enviroment that IMO can give young people the best training and experience available .

Just as in Franks post "Bit too late" , I really dont think those in power think things through.

We have a problem getting people worthwhile jobs , yet we let multi-billion pound defence contracts go to Korea.

Yep, in response to my complaint that:

a) Engineers in this country are often poorly paid in this country, compared with their counterparts in foreign countries
b) There aren't that many engineering jobs in the South, which is were I would like to live

Rick mentioned to me that a fair few senior figures in the finance world have an engineering degree background.

It sounds like you picked the wrong degree, expected too much from it, went to the wrong university or just plain didn't need to go to uni.

We might have an under resourced armed forces, but isn't that due to a tight budget, rather than recruitment problems? Some joined up thinking from me, we need more power stations, we need more railways.

Streamline the planning process for public projects, so we can build them more quickly and more importantly, have more money for the projects themselves.

I know it's not quite this simple, but I think it would provide more benefits to the country than national service.

carl_p

What a wonderful feel good thread. Send them all to a tour of Helmand Province that's what I say. Failing that make them do something really hard like a 50 mile bike ride in their findest Lycra.

Nearly 50 years I've been on this planet and the 'bring back national service' drivel never gets old.

rick_chasey

Stanley222 wrote:

tim wand wrote:

there seems to be a conveyor belt procession to Uni and degrees with no real substance and or application (Most definitely to help disguise youth unemployment figures)

I just thought with the original post that it was a bit of Joined up thinking, Mass Youth unemployment, Under resourced Armed forces , and an enviroment that IMO can give young people the best training and experience available .

We have a problem getting people worthwhile jobs , yet we let multi-billion pound defence contracts go to Korea.

Well put

Out of interest, how would the gov't afford to pay salaries of all 19 year olds?

verylonglegs

Rick Chasey wrote:

Stanley222 wrote:

tim wand wrote:

there seems to be a conveyor belt procession to Uni and degrees with no real substance and or application (Most definitely to help disguise youth unemployment figures)

I just thought with the original post that it was a bit of Joined up thinking, Mass Youth unemployment, Under resourced Armed forces , and an enviroment that IMO can give young people the best training and experience available .

We have a problem getting people worthwhile jobs , yet we let multi-billion pound defence contracts go to Korea.

Well put

Out of interest, how would the gov't afford to pay salaries of all 19 year olds?

Are we talking about national service for all teenagers anyway. Is the op suggesting for both males and females?! If it's just males it falls foul of gender discrimination these days surely?

Following up a post earlier from Rick I have to agree about it not being much use to everyone anyway, I was lucky enough to be brought up to know what was needed to be done to have a chance of achieving so being forced into the army at 16 and shouted at because my boots were not polished the right way or my bed not made properly would have been a waste of effing time.

rick_chasey

Stanley222 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Stanley222 wrote:

tim wand wrote:

there seems to be a conveyor belt procession to Uni and degrees with no real substance and or application (Most definitely to help disguise youth unemployment figures)

I just thought with the original post that it was a bit of Joined up thinking, Mass Youth unemployment, Under resourced Armed forces , and an enviroment that IMO can give young people the best training and experience available .

We have a problem getting people worthwhile jobs , yet we let multi-billion pound defence contracts go to Korea.

Well put

Out of interest, how would the gov't afford to pay salaries of all 19 year olds?

Plenty of other countries manage it with National Service plus if we can afford to give the Koreans a multi-billion pound deal then we must have some coins in the piggy bank!

Roughly 2.2 million 20-24 men.

£12k minimum a year wage (preusmably...) is £25bn a year in wages alone.

That's then not including food, supplies, (which will presumably be included for free) and accomodation, etc.

So say it costs £18k a year per person including the above (which is generous for the gov't).

That's nearer £40bn.

Women too? £80bn.

Frank the tank

The number of different tangents this thread could potentially go off at is indicative of how complex the issue of youth unemployment is, or the the cure for it at least.

It's not as simple as stick 'em all in the forces or just get the government to write cheques.

It's about education, parenting, social depravation, political will, the class system a whole plethora of issues which are all inter-linked. Nothing is ever as simple as it may seem and we all have our own ideas, some more radical than others. Fact is tackle one issue and a problem is potentially caused elsewhere.

One thing that IMHO doesn't help at all is the export of jobs abroad.

rake

how is anyone supposed to compete with these

Jez mon

For comparison, 2008 public spending on MOD, was 35.6 bn.

You get a more bearable number by:

dividing the 80 by 4, as you don't do 4 years national service, only 1, then dividing by some coefficient, because we don't send everyone on national service, only say half maybe.

So that's 10 bn

Or, again according to the same source a quarter of what we spend on schools.

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/G ... ending.pdf

Easy Rake, I can calculate thrust a jet engine produces, they can't :roll:

rake

your ok so it doesnt matter?