Bus driver jailed for attack on cyclist

rick_chasey

Greg66 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Greg66 wrote:

I think this thread is demonstrating how hard it is to bring objectivity to bear on an issue where one has personal experience (either by virtue of having experienced something similar, or by virtue of feeling that one has come close to, but managed to avoid something similar).

It's not about being objective.

It's about solving the problem.

This happens more often.

This needs to be stopped.

Chat about what cyclists can do to avoid people who deliberately go out of their way to hurt them MISSES THE POINT, and obscures the issue.

Where you see an unavoidable problem that requires a solution, others are seeing an avoidable problem and suggesting ways to avoid it.

But why should you have to avoid getting run over in the first place?

That situation should never occur in the first place.

Prevention is better than cure and all of that.

DonDaddyD

Veronese68 wrote:

Let's look at this a different way. What can we learn from this?
There are lunatics out there who are quite preparde to use their vehicle to mow you down because they don't agree with you. Whilst we are in no way to blame for this, as the more vulnerable party we should consider getting out of the way and letting the potential murderer go. By doing this we can live to ride another day.
Being in the right isn't worth being murderised to death for.

This!

I get into an argument with a guy in a car and we stop at the lights, I don't then position my bike diectly infront of their car and expect the likelihood of them mowing down simply not to happen. In fact I have petulantly positoned my bike infront of a car in these circumstances, but I'm so 'hulked' up I'm usually wanting to invite an issue. Stupid really, I don't do that anymore...

rjsterry

Rick Chasey wrote:

It was the same at my school.

I got detention from my teacher because my uniform 'wasn't up to scratch'. What had happened was I got beaten up, dragged across the grass and had fags stubbed out on my chest.

When I explained this to the teacher, her response was "you shouldn't make a target out of yourself", and kept me in detention rather than giving them sh!t. In this case, she meant walking around with my violin case, which makes me look "geeky" and a target.

I mean, wtf ?

They said the same to my parents when they complained. "Rick doesn't go out of his way to avoid the bullies". Crazy.

We sound like we have very similar temperaments. I remember something very similar at school - was always known as a geek/keener, and IIRC, I got pushed on to the floor whilst waiting to go into a lesson. Teacher came out and I ended up being the one getting told off rather than kids who had pushed me over - they were much better practised at looking innocent after they'd done something wrong. Kicking back at the people who pushed me over would have just confirmed to the teacher that he had the right person.

Anyway, my point is that whilst such needlessly aggressive behaviour needs to be vigorously dealt with, some skinny lycra-clad cyclists aren't the people to do it. I tend to react strongly to being carved up (or whatever) too, but pretty much without exception, every time I have allowed that aggressive reaction to manifest in anything more than shouting "FFS" into my facemask, it has made things worse, not better.

EDIT: Sorry, I must be starting to sound like your dad.

MonkeyMonster

DonDaddyD wrote:

Rick, I think you're showing an unprecedented level of naivety here.

In some ways the opposite - he has had unfortunately first hand experience and wants to not have to ever be near the chance of it happening again. Doesn't want to have to change his actions to ensure others less stable don't do him damage.

It's hope, not naivety. I too am not built to CP standards and growing up in a bit of shit hole in scotland with a fairly english accent meant I was in trouble whether I wanted it or not. What I think he is meaning is there needs to be harsher sentences to such behaviour so people genuinely fear what will happen if they step out line and thus they modify they behaviour rather than your face. The innocent party can carry on being a sensible citizen without having to change.

Hopeful. Likely wont happen of course but the internet was invented for us to rail against stupidity wasn't it? That and porn at least.

greg66_tri_v2.0

Rick Chasey wrote:

But why should you have to avoid getting run over in the first place?

Can you drive?

First rule of driving: assume everyone else is an idiot. Make sure that they don't hit you by not giving them the chance to.

It's *really* not a bad rule to work to.

MonkeyMonster

rjsterry wrote:

"FFS" into my facemask

It's the 3rd reason i wear one. So many expletives get lost within it I can regain my calm without anyone hearing anything bar some muffled words.

rick_chasey

rjsterry wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

It was the same at my school.

I got detention from my teacher because my uniform 'wasn't up to scratch'. What had happened was I got beaten up, dragged across the grass and had fags stubbed out on my chest.

When I explained this to the teacher, her response was "you shouldn't make a target out of yourself", and kept me in detention rather than giving them sh!t. In this case, she meant walking around with my violin case, which makes me look "geeky" and a target.

I mean, wtf ?

They said the same to my parents when they complained. "Rick doesn't go out of his way to avoid the bullies". Crazy.

We sound like we have very similar temperaments. I remember something very similar at school - was always known as a geek/keener, and IIRC, I got pushed on to the floor whilst waiting to go into a lesson. Teacher came out and I ended up being the one getting told off rather than kids who had pushed me over - they were much better practised at looking innocent after they'd done something wrong. Kicking back at the people who pushed me over would have just confirmed to the teacher that he had the right person.

Anyway, my point is that whilst such needlessly aggressive behaviour needs to be vigorously dealt with, some skinny lycra-clad cyclists aren't the people to do it. I tend to react strongly to being carved up (or whatever) too, but pretty much without exception, every time I have allowed that aggressive reaction to manifest in anything more than shouting "FFS" into my facemask, it has made things worse, not better.

*shrugs* I haven't gestured to anyone since I got kicked in the head for it (now 2 years ago).

I still get abuse, I still get stuff thrown at me.

It definitely pays to suck it all up with regard to getting aggravation. Doesn't sop it occasionally escalating on its own mind.

There are (bad) days where I genuinely can't take it and get quite upset about it. That I should have to take all that abuse and physical harm because I use a particular form of transport is crazy.

bails87

Rick, what happened at school was most definitely victim blaming, which isn't what I was trying to do.

As for

But why should you have to avoid getting run over in the first place?

That situation should never occur in the first place.

Prevention is better than cure and all of that.

I agree, it would be nice if everyone on the roads was level headed, courteous and aware of the vulnerability of others. But they're not. Personally, I'll do my best to stay alive given what we all know about the standard of driving, rather than assume everyone is perfect.

rick_chasey

Greg66 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

But why should you have to avoid getting run over in the first place?

Can you drive?

First rule of driving: assume everyone else is an idiot. Make sure that they don't hit you by not giving them the chance to.

It's *really* not a bad rule to work to.

Yeah, I tried that when I mounted the pavement when the guy was trying to run me over, but then the guy got out and kicked me anyway.

WTF you think I do, stand there in the middle of the road, waiting to get hit so I can be correct?

C'mon.

(as an aside, the best way of not getting hit or aggravating cars by your cycling presence is, of course, to be segregated )...

notsoblue

Veronese68 wrote:

Let's look at this a different way. What can we learn from this?
There are lunatics out there who are quite preparde to use their vehicle to mow you down because they don't agree with you. Whilst we are in no way to blame for this, as the more vulnerable party we should consider getting out of the way and letting the potential murderer go. By doing this we can live to ride another day.
Being in the right isn't worth being murderised to death for.

Surely the solution here is strict liability? If pedestrians and cyclists were treated like holy cows then motorists wouldn't go near them to intimidate. Wouldn't be worth the risk.

DonDaddyD

MonkeyMonster wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Rick, I think you're showing an unprecedented level of naivety here.

In some ways the opposite - he has had unfortunately first hand experience and wants to not have to ever be near the chance of it happening again. Doesn't want to have to change his actions to ensure others less stable don't do him damage.

The vitcitm blaming that Rick describes is terrible, happened to me too.

What I think is naive is the belife that these things should simply not happen. There is potential for these incidents to happen, there is a probablity involved that can increase and decrease depending on the variables.

Nothing condones what the bus driver did, but we are all responsible for our own actions having a full understanding that actions bring reactions that ultimately have consequences. So the cyclist got into a barney with the bus driver, what did he do to reduce the chance of it escalating beyond words?

No he doesn't have to or should have to avoid any retaliation from the bus driver but it might have been prudent to do so.

rick_chasey

Greg66 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Greg66 wrote:

I think this thread is demonstrating how hard it is to bring objectivity to bear on an issue where one has personal experience (either by virtue of having experienced something similar, or by virtue of feeling that one has come close to, but managed to avoid something similar).

It's not about being objective.

It's about solving the problem.

This happens more often.

This needs to be stopped.

Chat about what cyclists can do to avoid people who deliberately go out of their way to hurt them MISSES THE POINT, and obscures the issue.

Where you see an unavoidable problem that requires a solution, others are seeing an avoidable problem and suggesting ways to avoid it.

Anyway, you hardly practice what you preach.

Weren't your hurling abuse at a ped who was spoiling for a fight the other night?

hmbadger

One thing I take from this is to reinforce my belief that whatever you do when you get into an argument with a bus/car is don't bang on the car/van/bus. From this point on the motorist loses all reason. That's what happened with the bus, and what happened with the guy who got out of his car and punched Rick.

wrt the bus driver then overall I think the sentence is too light. Double that would have been merited, with at least a 10 year driving ban.

notsoblue

rjsterry wrote:

Anyway, my point is that whilst such needlessly aggressive behaviour needs to be vigorously dealt with, some skinny lycra-clad cyclists aren't the people to do it. I tend to react strongly to being carved up (or whatever) too, but pretty much without exception, every time I have allowed that aggressive reaction to manifest in anything more than shouting "FFS" into my facemask, it has made things worse, not better.

People have different experiences. Most of the times I've spoken to motorists after they've cut me up, or passed to close, or have honked their horn needlessly, they've reacted pretty sheepishly. People feel invulnerable and abstracted when they're in their cars and act out of character. If you humanise the situation by reacting directly to what they've done then it breaks that down.

I'm not saying that you should always react aggressively, in fact, a stream of epithets doesn't help the situation, but to not react at all only reinforces the idea that people can get away with that kind of awful behaviour.

rick_chasey

hmbadger wrote:

One thing I take from this is to reinforce my belief that whatever you do when you get into an argument with a bus/car is don't bang on the car/van/bus. From this point on the motorist loses all reason. That's what happened with the bus, and what happened with the guy who got out of his car and punched Rick.

wrt the bus driver then overall I think the sentence is too light. Double that would have been merited, with at least a 10 year driving ban.

Woah, hang on there, I never banged on anything. Never have done.

bails87

Rick Chasey wrote:

Greg66 wrote:

Where you see an unavoidable problem that requires a solution, others are seeing an avoidable problem and suggesting ways to avoid it.

Anyway, you hardly practice what you preach.

Weren't your hurling abuse at a ped who was spoiling for a fight the other night?

Ah, but a ped isn't going to run you over with a bus

W1

notsoblue wrote:

Veronese68 wrote:

Let's look at this a different way. What can we learn from this?
There are lunatics out there who are quite preparde to use their vehicle to mow you down because they don't agree with you. Whilst we are in no way to blame for this, as the more vulnerable party we should consider getting out of the way and letting the potential murderer go. By doing this we can live to ride another day.
Being in the right isn't worth being murderised to death for.

Surely the solution here is strict liability? If pedestrians and cyclists were treated like holy cows then motorists wouldn't go near them to intimidate. Wouldn't be worth the risk.

God no, I don't want the burden of proof to be on me to prove I wasn't at fault if a brainless ped walks out into the road without looking.

notsoblue

MonkeyMonster wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

"FFS" into my facemask

It's the 3rd reason i wear one. So many expletives get lost within it I can regain my calm without anyone hearing anything bar some muffled words.

Problem is that it muffles everything else you say, so it all just sounds like expletives

greg66_tri_v2.0

Rick Chasey wrote:

Anyway, you hardly practice what you preach.

Weren't your hurling abuse at a ped who was spoiling for a fight the other night?

I was? I may have been, but it doesn't ring an immediate bell. What have you got in mind?

rick_chasey

Greg66 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Anyway, you hardly practice what you preach.

Weren't your hurling abuse at a ped who was spoiling for a fight the other night?

I was? I may have been, but it doesn't ring an immediate bell. What have you got in mind?

Dolphin square bloke? By the petrol station. Likes to stand in the middle of the road.

I've seen him too - only I didn't ride into him .

W1

notsoblue wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Anyway, my point is that whilst such needlessly aggressive behaviour needs to be vigorously dealt with, some skinny lycra-clad cyclists aren't the people to do it. I tend to react strongly to being carved up (or whatever) too, but pretty much without exception, every time I have allowed that aggressive reaction to manifest in anything more than shouting "FFS" into my facemask, it has made things worse, not better.

People have different experiences. Most of the times I've spoken to motorists after they've cut me up, or passed to close, or have honked their horn needlessly, they've reacted pretty sheepishly. People feel invulnerable and abstracted when they're in their cars and act out of character. If you humanise the situation by reacting directly to what they've done then it breaks that down.

I'm not saying that you should always react aggressively, in fact, a stream of epithets doesn't help the situation, but to not react at all only reinforces the idea that people can get away with that kind of awful behaviour.

True, but - it's not effective in my experience.

Here is what happens:
*incident*
*5 seconds of shouting - no-one hears what the other is saying*
*lights change, traffic moves, no-one has learnt anything except cyclists/drivers (delete as appropriate) are knobbers*

Honestly, in many years and countless incidents I reckon I've had one apology which was the result of a rational, calm discussion. The rest were a waste of time, probably made things worse, were with people too moronic to be able to be rational and so now I frankly don't bother.

Paulie W

The reality is that we dont walk, cycle, drive, assuming everyone is an idiot or a psycho. We actually assume that most people, most of the time are going to act within the "rules". If we didnt we'd never go out. Sure people do stupid things and sure there are some people who react in a way that is completely out of proportion but in the vast majority of cases those things happen and then they're over. We cant (and shouldnt) modify our behaviour on the basis of extremes of behaviour because we end up living our life in fear and allowing our actions to be dictated by other's (possible) behaviour. You can call this naive or "not living in the real world" but if that's what the real world is like you can keep it!!

veronese68

Rick Chasey wrote:

But why should you have to avoid getting run over in the first place?

Because it really hurts, you're a lot softer and squishier than the few tons of metal the other bloke is in.

rick_chasey

W1 wrote:

notsoblue wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Anyway, my point is that whilst such needlessly aggressive behaviour needs to be vigorously dealt with, some skinny lycra-clad cyclists aren't the people to do it. I tend to react strongly to being carved up (or whatever) too, but pretty much without exception, every time I have allowed that aggressive reaction to manifest in anything more than shouting "FFS" into my facemask, it has made things worse, not better.

People have different experiences. Most of the times I've spoken to motorists after they've cut me up, or passed to close, or have honked their horn needlessly, they've reacted pretty sheepishly. People feel invulnerable and abstracted when they're in their cars and act out of character. If you humanise the situation by reacting directly to what they've done then it breaks that down.

I'm not saying that you should always react aggressively, in fact, a stream of epithets doesn't help the situation, but to not react at all only reinforces the idea that people can get away with that kind of awful behaviour.

True, but - it's not effective in my experience.

Here is what happens:
*incident*
*5 seconds of shouting - no-one hears what the other is saying*
*lights change, traffic moves, no-one has learnt anything except cyclists/drivers (delete as appropriate) are knobbers*

Honestly, in many years and countless incidents I reckon I've had one apology which was the result of a rational, calm discussion. The rest were a waste of time, probably made things worse, were with people too moronic to be able to be rational and so now I frankly don't bother.

My experience more often is

*cycling along*

*honking!*

*look around to see honknig. Notice through glass some abuse*

*look around again, car is alongside. Abuse is shouted. occasional object might be thrown.*

*I carry on cycling*

Yeah. Everyone wins. He gets to vent his anger and I avoid getting run over.

Result.

hmbadger

Rick Chasey wrote:

hmbadger wrote:

One thing I take from this is to reinforce my belief that whatever you do when you get into an argument with a bus/car is don't bang on the car/van/bus. From this point on the motorist loses all reason. That's what happened with the bus, and what happened with the guy who got out of his car and punched Rick.

wrt the bus driver then overall I think the sentence is too light. Double that would have been merited, with at least a 10 year driving ban.

Woah, hang on there, I never banged on anything. Never have done.

I'm sure you didn't. But he at seemed to think you at least touched his car. Sometimes even that's enough.

greg66_tri_v2.0

Rick Chasey wrote:

Greg66 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Anyway, you hardly practice what you preach.

Weren't your hurling abuse at a ped who was spoiling for a fight the other night?

I was? I may have been, but it doesn't ring an immediate bell. What have you got in mind?

Dolphin square bloke? By the petrol station. Likes to stand in the middle of the road.

I've seen him too - only I didn't ride into him .

Him. Well, no I wasn't hurling abuse at him. As I said, I saw him standing in the road in the middle of traffic. I didn't have the option to move to the left of the cycle path, because I didn't have time to shoulder check, and I wasn't going to risk taking out someone's front wheel as I moved to the left. So I tried to squeeze by him as best I could with minimal alteration to my line. As it was, I missed him, but didn't miss his backpack, which hit may hand/arm/shoulder and started the minor death wobble.

notsoblue

W1 wrote:

True, but - it's not effective in my experience.

Here is what happens:
*incident*
*5 seconds of shouting - no-one hears what the other is saying*
*lights change, traffic moves, no-one has learnt anything except cyclists/drivers (delete as appropriate) are knobbers*

Honestly, in many years and countless incidents I reckon I've had one apology which was the result of a rational, calm discussion. The rest were a waste of time, probably made things worse, were with people too moronic to be able to be rational and so now I frankly don't bother.

Well, experience differs. I've had half a dozen apologies.

W1

notsoblue wrote:

W1 wrote:

True, but - it's not effective in my experience.

Here is what happens:
*incident*
*5 seconds of shouting - no-one hears what the other is saying*
*lights change, traffic moves, no-one has learnt anything except cyclists/drivers (delete as appropriate) are knobbers*

Honestly, in many years and countless incidents I reckon I've had one apology which was the result of a rational, calm discussion. The rest were a waste of time, probably made things worse, were with people too moronic to be able to be rational and so now I frankly don't bother.

Well, experience differs. I've had half a dozen apologies.

Out of how many slanging matches?

rick_chasey

I mean, it gets pretty bad.

When i was getting beaten up as a kid I always walked the same route to the bus stop out of principle. My teacher suggested I sneak round the back but I was f*cked if I was going to have to run and hide my way to get on my bus to go home. It was the principle.

(as an aside, once a stagecoach bus driver refused to let me on because I'd been kicked in the head and was bleeding profusely from my eyebrow. My 'rents were both at work so I had to wait at school till 7 before I could get picked up).

Now there are days I don't go out cycling because I can't stand being shouted at that day.

I mean, that's bad. My spirit's been, literally, beaten out of me.

cjcp

notsoblue wrote:

Veronese68 wrote:

Let's look at this a different way. What can we learn from this?
There are lunatics out there who are quite preparde to use their vehicle to mow you down because they don't agree with you. Whilst we are in no way to blame for this, as the more vulnerable party we should consider getting out of the way and letting the potential murderer go. By doing this we can live to ride another day.
Being in the right isn't worth being murderised to death for.

Surely the solution here is strict liability? If pedestrians and cyclists were treated like holy cows then motorists wouldn't go near them to intimidate. Wouldn't be worth the risk.

Strict liability for car drivers?

No. There was a discussion on this a couple of years ago. There are too many to$$ers on bikes.