Test rides (and strange bike shops)

124

Comments

  • johndoran
    johndoran Posts: 69
    Just looking all these posts from a simple persons thinking. If you have these thoughts on pushbikes how on earth do you ever buy anything at all ?. We live in a global economy,not perfect but its not going to change now. Pretty well anything that is sold today from underpants to TVs to cars goes through the same routel as cycles.
  • smidsy
    smidsy Posts: 5,273
    Don't wast your breath John. I have just spent 10 mins reading all this post from start to finish and its a complete waste of time and I will never get that 10mins of my life back.
    Yellow is the new Black.
  • suzyb
    suzyb Posts: 3,449
    rah2501 wrote:
    suzyb wrote:
    rah2501 wrote:
    suzyb wrote:
    I feel like I'm feeding a troll asking this but how do Giant, Specialized, Trek and what ever other brands you dislike source their finished goods i.e. bikes from third party supplies.

    If you want to learn about how these kinds of brand-focused companies operate, the book No Logo by Naomi Klein goes in to great depth. Not that it's for the feint hearted, mind.

    Read it (was a while ago mind you, when it first came out).

    As a refresher, foreign governments offer ludicrous tax breaks to these companies and they remove lots of the red tape for dealing with factories in Export Processing Zones. So, the companies close their local factories and instead buy finished goods from the Export Processing Zones. The brand companies are very much in control so they can stipulate precisely how the foreign factory has to make their products, the designs, the materials, etc. They essentially have willing and able minions who will do "the dirty work" of running a factory without passing on any of the liability, like health insurance for their workers. The foreign governments are desperate for the income so they turn a blind eye to massive abuses of human rights, usually legislating that the country's domestic laws don't apply within the Export Processing Zones, which are often concrete-wall or barbed-wire enclosed compounds.

    From the perspective of the brand company's share holders, they've magically increased their revenue by 20%. So, where that 20% used to go on things like worker's salaries, sandwiches from the butty van, etc., they now just go directly to the share holders and the workers are just considered disposable; if the workers don't like it or they become too expensive (due to things like wanting dental care), there are plenty of other countries with factories in Export Processing Zones and because the brand company owns nothing, it's a simple matter to change to a different factory.
    tbh I don't really care.
    Whippet
  • rah2501
    rah2501 Posts: 49
    johndoran wrote:
    Just looking all these posts from a simple persons thinking. If you have these thoughts on pushbikes how on earth do you ever buy anything at all ?. We live in a global economy,not perfect but its not going to change now. Pretty well anything that is sold today from underpants to TVs to cars goes through the same routel as cycles.

    It's funny that you should use those two examples because I don't have a TV or a car :-) Regardless:
    rah2501 wrote:
    suzyb wrote:
    rah2501, if your so anti-brand I can see you never being able to buy anything pretty soon

    Yes, you're right, I don't feel that there are any products I can buy with a completely clear conscience.
  • giant_man
    giant_man Posts: 6,878
    I like this thread, it's different. To get back on topic rah2501, I think you're doing the right thing by testing as many bikes as you can until you find one that's right FOR YOU. The experience you originally had was a bad one, but possibly not an isolated one. Every model of bike, whether carbon, steel or aluminium, will feel different, because of the material used and the varying geometries, so if you're paying out for a new bike, why shouldn't you try as many bikes as you can.

    I will say however, that five hours as you stated on your initial test ride is quite long, that probably gave the sales guy in the shop the idea that you were going to buy that bike, so probably upset him that he wasn't going to get a sale that day, I always think that if you keep test rides to 1/2 hour to 1 hour, this gives you enough time to see what the bike handles like.

    Good luck with your search, rah2501, and remember to show us some pics when you acquire said beast.
  • mattshrops
    mattshrops Posts: 1,134
    suzyb wrote:
    rah2501 wrote:
    suzyb wrote:
    rah2501 wrote:
    suzyb wrote:
    I feel like I'm feeding a troll asking this but how do Giant, Specialized, Trek and what ever other brands you dislike source their finished goods i.e. bikes from third party supplies.

    If you want to learn about how these kinds of brand-focused companies operate, the book No Logo by Naomi Klein goes in to great depth. Not that it's for the feint hearted, mind.

    Read it (was a while ago mind you, when it first came out).

    As a refresher, foreign governments offer ludicrous tax breaks to these companies and they remove lots of the red tape for dealing with factories in Export Processing Zones. So, the companies close their local factories and instead buy finished goods from the Export Processing Zones. The brand companies are very much in control so they can stipulate precisely how the foreign factory has to make their products, the designs, the materials, etc. They essentially have willing and able minions who will do "the dirty work" of running a factory without passing on any of the liability, like health insurance for their workers. The foreign governments are desperate for the income so they turn a blind eye to massive abuses of human rights, usually legislating that the country's domestic laws don't apply within the Export Processing Zones, which are often concrete-wall or barbed-wire enclosed compounds.

    From the perspective of the brand company's share holders, they've magically increased their revenue by 20%. So, where that 20% used to go on things like worker's salaries, sandwiches from the butty van, etc., they now just go directly to the share holders and the workers are just considered disposable; if the workers don't like it or they become too expensive (due to things like wanting dental care), there are plenty of other countries with factories in Export Processing Zones and because the brand company owns nothing, it's a simple matter to change to a different factory.
    tbh I don't really care.


    me and suzy sitting in a tree k-i-s-s-i-n-g


    errm did i say that out loud? :oops:
    Death or Glory- Just another Story
  • jim453
    jim453 Posts: 1,360
    That's a bit weird. Are you an internet predator?
  • mattshrops
    mattshrops Posts: 1,134
    what? too needy? :lol:
    Death or Glory- Just another Story
  • Omar Little
    Omar Little Posts: 2,010
    rah2501 wrote:

    I don't know that these bicycle manufacturers have gone that far. Yet. They are definitely on the branding bandwagon. They're following the lead of companies like Nike. Giant seems to be further ahead but the rest are catching up. If they haven't done it already, they're certainly heading in the direction of closing their factories.

    If you want to learn about how these kinds of brand-focused companies operate, the book No Logo by Naomi Klein goes in to great depth. Not that it's for the feint hearted, mind.


    Of the 3 companies you singled out you are pretty off in your criticism.

    Giant are the only large scale manufacturer to make all their own frames (and the frames for quite a few other companies are made in their factories too).

    Merida make Specialized frames...but they also own a big chunk of Specialized too.

    Trek make their own carbon frames and they outsource the aluminium frame manufacture....to Giant
  • rah2501
    rah2501 Posts: 49
    Omar Little wrote:
    Of the 3 companies you singled out you are pretty off in your criticism.

    Giant are the only large scale manufacturer to make all their own frames

    I don't quite understand how you can come to the conclusion that my criticism is off. My concern is not that these companies buy finished bikes from third-party manufacturers at present, or even that they buy frames from third-party manufacturers. My concern is that they have embraced a mode of conducting business that I consider to be unethical and one which values freedom from factory ownership, making it likely that factory closures will occur in future.

    You can buy a £5 pump with Giant's logo on it. I would be very interested in knowing whether Giant owns the factory that makes these. I suspect they do not.

    The fact that, at this point in time, Giant owns frame-producing factories, does not negate the fact that their business is aligned with a philosophy which dictates freedom from factory ownership.
  • jim453
    jim453 Posts: 1,360
    rah2501 wrote:
    Omar Little wrote:
    Of the 3 companies you singled out you are pretty off in your criticism.

    Giant are the only large scale manufacturer to make all their own frames

    I don't quite understand how you can come to the conclusion that my criticism is off. My concern is not that these companies buy finished bikes from third-party manufacturers at present, or even that they buy frames from third-party manufacturers. My concern is that they have embraced a mode of conducting business that I consider to be unethical and one which values freedom from factory ownership, making it likely that factory closures will occur in future.

    You can buy a £5 pump with Giant's logo on it. I would be very interested in knowing whether Giant owns the factory that makes these. I suspect they do not.

    The fact that, at this point in time, Giant owns frame-producing factories, does not negate the fact that their business is aligned with a philosophy which dictates freedom from factory ownership.

    You're funny Rah. You've done well to keep this up over six pages.

    However, just in case you are not a troll, relax. Buy a bike you like and stop worrying about it. I don't believe any of the manufacturers you name are any better/more ethical/less brand obsessed than any other. Perhaps you can buy a bike second hand and have it re-sprayed.

    Good luck with the search.
  • rah2501
    rah2501 Posts: 49
    After quite some research looking at budget, local-shop availability, bike fitting possibilities, bike manufacturer business practices, and group set manufacturer business practices, I've managed to narrow down my choices to one single bike: the Kuota Korsa Lite with Campagnolo Veloce group set.

    The ironic thing is that this bike was the one I "test rode". Not only that but the only local shop that stocks it is the one that gave it to me to test ride and which provides bike fitting; the strange bike shop of this thread's title. Quite a round trip. I guess I'll just have to do my best to avoid the condescending guy when I go in there.

    Thanks to those who offered useful advice.
  • letap73
    letap73 Posts: 1,608
    "After quite some research looking at budget, local-shop availability, bike fitting possibilities, bike manufacturer business practices, and group set manufacturer business practices, I've managed to narrow down my choices to one single bike: the Kuota Korsa Lite with Campagnolo Veloce group set."

    Aren't Kuota frames made in Taiwan/China - How does this make them any different from Giant, Specialized, Cannondale et al?
    If you are really so ethical then maybe you should consider companies such as Mercian, Enigma etc.
  • rah2501
    rah2501 Posts: 49
    letap73 wrote:
    Aren't Kuota frames made in Taiwan/China - How does this make them any different from Giant, Specialized, Cannondale et al?

    I don't understand your question. I've clearly stated, numerous times, that my concern with these companies is in their embrace of the branding business philosophy. Kuota is different from these companies in that I haven't found any evidence of them jumping on the branding bandwagon.
  • pdstsp
    pdstsp Posts: 1,264
    As the young people say ........ whatever.
  • letap73
    letap73 Posts: 1,608
    "You can buy a £5 pump with Giant's logo on it. I would be very interested in knowing whether Giant owns the factory that makes these. I suspect they do not."

    You can buy a frame with Kuota's logo on it. The factories that make the frames are based in Taiwan/China. Kuotas do not own these factories.

    The main thrust of your argument appears to be that the likes of Giant etc outsource the manufacture of their frames/ bike pumps to who ever will produce them at lower cost, thus these companies have no loyalty to those factories. Kuota does exactly the same as these companies. It is as much a brand as Giant, Specialized etc.
    If you so ethically minded against Giant then don't get a Kuota, get something else bespoke like a Mercian, Enigma etc.
  • sagalout
    sagalout Posts: 338
    I honestly think test rides are a waste of time.

    I bought a new bike last week and the process was simply look online for a nice bike, read a few reviews, go to LBS that stocks the brand, look at the details 'in the flesh'. Hand over cash and buy bike.....a shiny new Wilier Gran Turismo. The 'test ride' consisted of a 60 mile ride maiden ride with a smile on my face :)

    My reasoning is that it takes weeks to get used to a new bike. Different tyres, saddle height and stem position makes a world of difference, to the point that if you jut judged it on test rides, you'd buy the bike that happenned to be closest to your ideal fit. I just buy that bike that I like the look of most and then get it to fit.
  • rah2501
    rah2501 Posts: 49
    letap73 wrote:
    The main thrust of your argument appears to be that the likes of Giant etc outsource the manufacture of their frames/ bike pumps to who ever will produce them at lower cost

    Either you've not read my posts; or you've read them and misunderstood them; or you've read them, understood them and are taking the p*ss. I think I've expressed myself pretty clearly and if you're still using words like "appears to be" to describe my argument, then I'm not going to bother continuing to repeat myself. There's a book called No Logo, written by a woman called Naomi Klein. Go and read it if you want to understand how Kuota differ from Giant.
  • suzyb
    suzyb Posts: 3,449
    rah2501 wrote:
    letap73 wrote:
    The main thrust of your argument appears to be that the likes of Giant etc outsource the manufacture of their frames/ bike pumps to who ever will produce them at lower cost

    Either you've not read my posts; or you've read them and misunderstood them; or you've read them, understood them and are taking the p*ss. I think I've expressed myself pretty clearly and if you're still using words like "appears to be" to describe my argument, then I'm not going to bother continuing to repeat myself. There's a book called No Logo, written by a woman called Naomi Klein. Go and read it if you want to understand how Kuota differ from Giant.
    He's not the only one. That's how I understood you posts as well.

    I'm half tempted to re-read No Logo again to see if my understanding of brands after reading it is the same as yours.
    Whippet
  • mike101
    mike101 Posts: 42
    Just edited my original post as I didn't read your last post properly. I'd love to see their faces when you go back to the LBS and discuss this after your last experience.
  • wishitwasallflat
    wishitwasallflat Posts: 2,927
    edited February 2012
    So let's get this right - you lived under a bridge for years, on your own (thinking about eating non-branded home made generic goats mostly) and decided to pop out for a chat about bikes on a forum one day and now you find you like it out here so you want to stay ... ?
  • wishitwasallflat
    wishitwasallflat Posts: 2,927
    PS - Should add - that's fine by me I think you are hilareous, please keep posting, I have been stuck off my bike with a chest infection for a week or so and this thread has passed the time lovely! Well done :D
  • Trickyh
    Trickyh Posts: 50
    mike101 wrote:
    Just edited my original post as I didn't read your last post properly. I'd love to see their faces when you go back to the LBS and discuss this after your last experience.


    Deffo. I wish we could point them at this post... I'm sure we'd end up with a new topic :-

    Test rides (and strange customers) :mrgreen:

    And yes I am taking the píss Rah2501 :wink:

    x
  • Pigtail
    Pigtail Posts: 424
    I've a degree of sympathy with some of this on an instinctive level, but I don't think cycling is the hobby for it.

    For years I've avoided logos as much as possible- if I'm going to become a walking billboard for somebody's products I think they should be paying me. My regular leisure garb is unbranded 100% cotton fairtrade t-shirts.

    Since taking to cycling I've been paying more for stuff than I've done in 20 years, and I've got names all over the place. My cycling shoes must be the most expensive pair of shoes I've ever owned.
  • moonbucket
    moonbucket Posts: 15
    rah2501 wrote:
    letap73 wrote:
    The main thrust of your argument appears to be that the likes of Giant etc outsource the manufacture of their frames/ bike pumps to who ever will produce them at lower cost

    Either you've not read my posts; or you've read them and misunderstood them; or you've read them, understood them and are taking the p*ss. I think I've expressed myself pretty clearly and if you're still using words like "appears to be" to describe my argument, then I'm not going to bother continuing to repeat myself. There's a book called No Logo, written by a woman called Naomi Klein. Go and read it if you want to understand how Kuota differ from Giant.

    Do you base all of your rather odd outlook on other people's ideas? Kinda outsourcing your opinions there eh? :wink:

    PS I trust this book didn't have the author's logo (name) on it.....
  • wishitwasallflat
    wishitwasallflat Posts: 2,927
    moonbucket wrote:
    rah2501 wrote:
    letap73 wrote:

    PS I trust this book didn't have the author's logo (name) on it.....

    and it better have been written on hand woven paper made from trees the author grew themselves and hand delivered to each reader etc etc ... thinking back to an earlier post

    http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=bamboo ... CFwQrQMwBg

    if by any chance you have a bamboo grove in your back garden your problem may be solved if you have unbranded tools of course ... and don't live near any peckish pandas :D
  • suzyb
    suzyb Posts: 3,449
    The website explains why it's not hypocritical for the book to critisise brands and logos when it has one itself.

    http://www.naomiklein.org/no-logo/faq
    Whippet
  • courtz
    courtz Posts: 49
    'Test rides (and strange customers)'
  • mattshrops
    mattshrops Posts: 1,134
    what a waste of energy blah blah
    Death or Glory- Just another Story
  • moonbucket
    moonbucket Posts: 15
    suzyb wrote:
    The website explains why it's not hypocritical for the book to critisise brands and logos when it has one itself.

    http://www.naomiklein.org/no-logo/faq

    I'm sure it does, but I think this poster has rather taken the book's idea and ran with it. Paying so much heed to the branding and the PR/Advertising that goes towards creating an aspirational label, and not realising that there is a world of difference between a third world slum kid earning $1.50 a day to stitch jeans together, and a trained, skilled Taiwanese frame builder living in that modern country, and who is relatively well paid.

    In other words he's read the book but not fully understood the message.

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