Test rides (and strange bike shops)

Brownyboy

If the cycling companies you refer to as being 'brand-focussed' produced substandard products, pretty soon people would stop buying them, no matter now strong their brand identity was. All companies wants to sell as much of their product as possible, that's just the nature of capitalism, therefore why shouldn't they open a branded store if they can? No-one forces you to buy from there.

Lots of people on this and other threads have given you pleanty of good and worthwhile advise. Take it or leave it, it's up to you. If there isn't a LBS close enough to your house for your liking, there's not much anyone can do to change that.

Trickyh

rah2501 wrote:

Now, I'm not entirely sure which companies in the lists I posted are brand-focused in the sense I've elaborated here. The only companies I know for certain are Giant, Specialized and Trek as I've seen that they have opened branded stores. They may still own manufacturing sites, I don't know. What I do know is that they chant the branding mantra and I don't like that. The others on the "blacklist" I'm less sure about but they seem suspicious so I'm staying clear.

So where do you put the big component manufacturers into your rose tinted view of bicycle manufacturers? Without SRAM, Shimano or Capag bits on yer bike I think you'll be limited to a Big Wheel!

x

turbo_hamster

Pross wrote:

Where are you located? Someone will undoubtably be able to recommend a bike shop in your area that offers good advice and fitting service even if they don't offer a a test ride. If you are anywhere near the Midlands it is well worth a drive to Epic in Tenbury Wells.

Epic have now moved to Ludlow. Just Google them to get directions.

I agree with those who recommend Epic. I had a one-off bike fit on my own bike, which was very helpful in getting me as close to an aero position as a sportive-type road bike will allow. I went back months later to buy a bike and the cost of the bike fit was taken off the purchase price.

They not only allowed me to have a test ride (after about 30 minutes tweaking the position on a turbo trainer), but encouraged me to take the bike as far as I liked. Once I had decided on the model I wanted, I had a lot of freedom to choose different components, to get the best fit.

I believe that the Specialized Concept store in Birmingham also allow test rides. I don't know if my information is up to date, but 4 years ago, a friend paid a deposit and was able to take a test bike home with him for the weekend.

The point has been made that an LBS can't stock all the available models in every size. All the same, I don't see why a bike can't be set up on a turbo trainer, so the potential customer can find out if the the set-up is roughly ok.

keef66

My fitting / first test ride on the racelight Tk was on a 54 but it was clear the 51 would be a better fit. Epic ordered in the smaller frame and built it up with my choice of components then I had a second fitting and longer test ride before parting with any money.

wishitwasallflat

I see the OPs point now - I would suggest forget Giant, Spesh etc etc - Haribo are the biggest cycling brand criminals! I understand all they do now is brand promotion via their dubious association with the abstract concept of cycling products and no longer make any cycling products at all themselves.

rah2501

Brownyboy wrote:

If the cycling companies you refer to as being 'brand-focussed' produced substandard products, pretty soon people would stop buying them

The companies I'm concerned with don't produce goods, they just sell goods produced by others. I'm not concerned about the quality of the goods sold but with the fact that the companies haven't produced them.

Again, the quality of the goods produced by bicycle manufacturers isn't the issue; their embrace of branding is.

Brownyboy wrote:

All companies wants to sell as much of their product as possible, that's just the nature of capitalism

That's incorrect. All capitalist companies want to do is make money. If they can make money by selling as many products as they can, they will do that. If they can make money by restricting the number of products on sale, thus creating scarcity and allowing them to sell at higher prices, they will do that instead. They will do whatever they can to capitalise on the market; *that* is the nature of capitalism.

rah2501

Trickyh wrote:

So where do you put the big component manufacturers

I would say Shimano: definitely black list. SRAM, less so. Capagnolo would be my preference.

Trickyh wrote:

into your rose tinted view of bicycle manufacturers?

Err.. do you realise that "rose tinted" means good? And that I'm pointing out the numberous *bad* aspects of bicycle manufacturers?

Brownyboy

I'm really not sure what you're hoping to get out of this thread any more.

rah2501

suzyb wrote:

rah2501, if your so anti-brand I can see you never being able to buy anything pretty soon

Yes, you're right, I don't feel that there are any products I can buy with a completely clear conscience.

pdstsp

Don't feed the troll.

Pross

I think your research has been somewhat confused. You are aware that the vast majority of Bianchi frames are manufactured in the Far East by other companies are you? If you are looking for carbon (I'm not sure as you still haven't stated much about what you are after) then you will struggle to find anything that isn't outsourced. Falcon (who own the Claud Butler brand) are based in Lincolnshire although I'm sure they also source frames from the Far East. I'm not quite sure what the issue is with using external factories to produce the frames as they are providing labour in these developing countries. I think your best bet might be to find a custom frame builder and get a steel framed bike built to spec but you may need to up your budget (I can't vouch for the source of steel tubes they use though). There is an interesting site on the web that will tell you exactly where a frame is manufactured but I don't know the link - you may be surprised that some of your preferred manufacturers have frames built in exactly the same place as some of those you have rejected.

Pross

You could also try one of these http://www.rawbamboobikes.co.uk/

Other than that I'm out of ideas so won't be able to add anything further.

Trickyh

rah2501 wrote:

Trickyh wrote:

So where do you put the big component manufacturers

I would say Shimano: definitely black list. SRAM, less so. Capagnolo would be my preference.

Trickyh wrote:

into your rose tinted view of bicycle manufacturers?

Err.. do you realise that "rose tinted" means good? And that I'm pointing out the numberous *bad* aspects of bicycle manufacturers?

So its ok in your eyes to exploit Romanians brother??

''Campagnolo opened its first Romanian factory six years ago in a leased 6,400-square-foot space. That factory has grown to a size 10 times that as Campagnolo has shifted more production to Eastern Europe to keep overhead costs at bay.

Labor costs in Romania are about three-and-a-half times less than in Italy, and are comparable to those paid to factory workers in Taiwan, Campagnolo said. That has allowed Campagnolo to offset some of its labor costs without outsourcing to a factory in Asia—potentially opening up its intellectual property to vulnerability—and in a location that’s driving distance from Italy. ''

x

keef66

Smart move by Campagnolo I'd say

johndoran

Of course the final answer would be ,make your own frame then kit it out with parts of your choice. You can still buy tube sets,lugs and all the paraphernalia you need . A jig isn't difficult to make and if you cant now you could do a course in welding/brazing.
At the rate you are going this would answer all your ethical problems and will probably be quicker in the end.
Its not such a silly solution either.

rolf_f

Actually, I do sympathise with the OP here. There's nothing wrong with trying to keep the faith even though it may not be 100% effective. Eg the frame of my Orange MTB was made in Taiwan but Orange do make frames in the UK so I reckon I was supporting UK manufacturing as well as I was able to under the circumstances. Campag may manufacture in Romania (and some of my Campag wheels are from the Far East) but they do also manufacture in Italy. Maybe it will all end with everything going to the Far East but there is no harm in doing your bit to avoid this.

I don't think the OPs categorisation of some companies is entirely fair but without doing exhaustive research, how can you narrow the field?

However, I do think that the OP is starting to foam at the mouth a little.......

rah2501 wrote:

Brownyboy wrote:

All companies wants to sell as much of their product as possible, that's just the nature of capitalism

That's incorrect. All capitalist companies want to do is make money.

Absolutely spot on. Hence the number of companies whose core business is completely different to what we think it is.

rolf_f

turbo hamster wrote:

Epic have now moved to Ludlow. Just Google them to get directions..

OMG! But what about the wall? THE WALL!!!!!!!!

mattshrops

I'm struggling with your objection to the "big brands". Apparently you feel they concentrate on their brand more than their product.
Quick survey-Lets take two entry level bikes from the big 2. Anyone on here got a spesh allez or a giant defy,any of the models?? Anyone unhappy with the product they received(not the shop service)? IMO they are both fantastic bikes and great value if that is your price point.

I suspect in reality youre more concerned about buying from a multinational company?

I also suspect that your glass is at very best permanently half empty.

Crankbrother

WTF? This started as a reasonable thread i was going to try and offer help with into random stupidity ... mainly from the OP ...

If you are trying to cut out 'the man' then you'll have to go custom or pay a hefty price for a hand crafted frame ... and have to fit it out with campag ...

If it's a national 'chain' store you're having (ahem) moral issues with then i'd suggest you go to your local Evans, make all the right noises, test a bike or two then find a lbs that sells (or can order) what you want ...

But ffs, you likely put petrol in your car, buy electricity (to run your computer to allow you to post this) so just man the feck up and buy from where you get the best product/deal ... ideals are for the stupid, rich or the stupidly rich ...

rah2501

Pross wrote:

You are aware that the vast majority of Bianchi frames are manufactured in the Far East by other companies are you? If you are looking for carbon (I'm not sure as you still haven't stated much about what you are after) then you will struggle to find anything that isn't outsourced.

The issue with these brand-focused companies isn't that they source components from third-party suppliers but that they source finished goods from third-party suppliers. In some instances, they don't even do that, they simply sell the right to produce and bring to market, goods with their branding on.

To have a company that produced bikes without having components supplied to them would mean they would have to mine the ore for the metals they use, and process and smelt them, along with drilling for and refining the oil for the plastics, etc., etc. This is an absurdity. Bicycle manufacturers can't operate without third-party suppliers.

rah2501

mattshrops wrote:

I suspect in reality youre more concerned about buying from a multinational company?

I'm not more concerned about buying from a multinational company.

rah2501

Trickyh wrote:

Campagnolo opened its first Romanian factory six years ago

Campagnolo own the factory. They produce their own goods. This is a good thing.

I'm not sure that it's necessarily good for Italian workers. However, Campagnolo are at least paying the foreign workers themselves.

rah2501

johndoran wrote:

Of course the final answer would be ,make your own frame ... you could do a course in welding/brazing.

That would be cool :-) Unfortunately, my present bike is so worn out it's becoming unridable. Hence, I need a new bike ASAP and can't afford the time to learn how to build frames.

suzyb

rah2501 wrote:

Pross wrote:

You are aware that the vast majority of Bianchi frames are manufactured in the Far East by other companies are you? If you are looking for carbon (I'm not sure as you still haven't stated much about what you are after) then you will struggle to find anything that isn't outsourced.

The issue with these brand-focused companies isn't that they source components from third-party suppliers but that they source finished goods from third-party suppliers. In some instances, they don't even do that, they simply sell the right to produce and bring to market, goods with their branding on.

I feel like I'm feeding a troll asking this but how do Giant, Specialized, Trek and what ever other brands you dislike source their finished goods i.e. bikes from third party supplies.

rah2501

suzyb wrote:

rah2501 wrote:

The issue with these brand-focused companies isn't that they source components from third-party suppliers but that they source finished goods from third-party suppliers. In some instances, they don't even do that, they simply sell the right to produce and bring to market, goods with their branding on.

I feel like I'm feeding a troll asking this but how do Giant, Specialized, Trek and what ever other brands you dislike source their finished goods i.e. bikes from third party supplies.

I don't know that these bicycle manufacturers have gone that far. Yet. They are definitely on the branding bandwagon. They're following the lead of companies like Nike. Giant seems to be further ahead but the rest are catching up. If they haven't done it already, they're certainly heading in the direction of closing their factories.

If you want to learn about how these kinds of brand-focused companies operate, the book No Logo by Naomi Klein goes in to great depth. Not that it's for the feint hearted, mind.

letap73

rah2501 wrote:

suzyb wrote:

rah2501 wrote:

The issue with these brand-focused companies isn't that they source components from third-party suppliers but that they source finished goods from third-party suppliers. In some instances, they don't even do that, they simply sell the right to produce and bring to market, goods with their branding on.

I feel like I'm feeding a troll asking this but how do Giant, Specialized, Trek and what ever other brands you dislike source their finished goods i.e. bikes from third party supplies.

I don't know that these bicycle manufacturers have gone that far. Yet. They are definitely on the branding bandwagon. They're following the lead of companies like Nike. Giant seems to be further ahead but the rest are catching up. If they haven't done it already, they're certainly heading in the direction of closing their factories.

If you want to learn about how these kinds of brand-focused companies operate, the book No Logo by Naomi Klein goes in to great depth. Not that it's for the feint hearted, mind.

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You have an issue with brand focused companies because they do not produce their own goods. You state Giant are further ahead in "Branding" then any other company. Forgive me if I am wrong but don't Giant make their own bikes in their own factory?

pdstsp

Stop.

suzyb

rah2501 wrote:

suzyb wrote:

rah2501 wrote:

The issue with these brand-focused companies isn't that they source components from third-party suppliers but that they source finished goods from third-party suppliers. In some instances, they don't even do that, they simply sell the right to produce and bring to market, goods with their branding on.

I feel like I'm feeding a troll asking this but how do Giant, Specialized, Trek and what ever other brands you dislike source their finished goods i.e. bikes from third party supplies.

I don't know that these bicycle manufacturers have gone that far. Yet. They are definitely on the branding bandwagon. They're following the lead of companies like Nike. Giant seems to be further ahead but the rest are catching up. If they haven't done it already, they're certainly heading in the direction of closing their factories.

If you want to learn about how these kinds of brand-focused companies operate, the book No Logo by Naomi Klein goes in to great depth. Not that it's for the feint hearted, mind.

Read it (was a while ago mind you, when it first came out).

rah2501

letap73 wrote:

Forgive me if I am wrong but don't Giant make their own bikes in their own factory?

Possibly.

letap73 wrote:

rah2501 wrote:

If they haven't done it already, they're certainly heading in the direction of closing their factories.

rah2501

suzyb wrote:

rah2501 wrote:

suzyb wrote:

I feel like I'm feeding a troll asking this but how do Giant, Specialized, Trek and what ever other brands you dislike source their finished goods i.e. bikes from third party supplies.

If you want to learn about how these kinds of brand-focused companies operate, the book No Logo by Naomi Klein goes in to great depth. Not that it's for the feint hearted, mind.

Read it (was a while ago mind you, when it first came out).

As a refresher, foreign governments offer ludicrous tax breaks to these companies and they remove lots of the red tape for dealing with factories in Export Processing Zones. So, the companies close their local factories and instead buy finished goods from the Export Processing Zones. The brand companies are very much in control so they can stipulate precisely how the foreign factory has to make their products, the designs, the materials, etc. They essentially have willing and able minions who will do "the dirty work" of running a factory without passing on any of the liability, like health insurance for their workers. The foreign governments are desperate for the income so they turn a blind eye to massive abuses of human rights, usually legislating that the country's domestic laws don't apply within the Export Processing Zones, which are often concrete-wall or barbed-wire enclosed compounds.

From the perspective of the brand company's share holders, they've magically increased their revenue by 20%. So, where that 20% used to go on things like worker's salaries, sandwiches from the butty van, etc., they now just go directly to the share holders and the workers are just considered disposable; if the workers don't like it or they become too expensive (due to things like wanting dental care), there are plenty of other countries with factories in Export Processing Zones and because the brand company owns nothing, it's a simple matter to change to a different factory.