Marco Pantani

frenchfighter

Le Commentateur wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

F*ck me watching cycling was so much better when they didn't have helmets.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6WETnJcopY
Local race on part of the Nove Colli sportive course.

Nice, never seen this before.

frenchfighter

Paulie W wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

Regardless of everything, give me a video of Pantani ripping a race apart and I will be happy. It has no relevance that he was doped up massively. It is still a joy to watch as he had personality on the bike and was very likeable. Stylish into the bargain too, with lots of flair.

What you mean is that you choose to ignore it. To say that it has no relevance is technically incorrect because his doping enabled him to rip the race apart and to ride with 'flair' so it is directly relevant.

No relevance to my enjoyment.

Paulie W

frenchfighter wrote:

Paulie W wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

Regardless of everything, give me a video of Pantani ripping a race apart and I will be happy. It has no relevance that he was doped up massively. It is still a joy to watch as he had personality on the bike and was very likeable. Stylish into the bargain too, with lots of flair.

What you mean is that you choose to ignore it. To say that it has no relevance is technically incorrect because his doping enabled him to rip the race apart and to ride with 'flair' so it is directly relevant.

No relevance to my enjoyment.

Fair enough - wish I had your ability to disconnect!

cajun_cyclist

Rick Chasey wrote:

Le Commentateur wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

F*ck me watching cycling was so much better when they didn't have helmets.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6WETnJcopY
Local race on part of the Nove Colli sportive course.

:P They're not helmets. That's just a load of sausages banded together.

Those hair nets as they were called did look that way some.

dilemna

LeicesterLad wrote:

Dabber wrote:

LeicesterLad wrote:

Anyone read Matt Rendall's book on Pantani? Is it worth the £2 in 'the Works'?

The Works? What/where's that?

Its a discount bookshop in Leicester (think they have shops elsewhere, and they ARE online), one of them places that has 12month old books for 99p...can't complain really, got slaying the badger from there for £2, they have a great selection of Wildlife and Cooking books (both float my boat), and alot of the novels appear to be quite recent. Bought the whole 'girl with the...' set fo £4 a couple of years ago now. Obviously a lot of the stuff is naff, or not so current, but now and again a bargain still in the chart type book crops up that waterstones and amazon have up for £20 and the works have it for £2.99...Im rambling now, im not usually a fan of this type of shop but really can't grumble, i find myself nipping in on my lunchbreak quite often and buying all mannor of sh*t....

I picked up the Officiel Tour de France 1903 - 2004 for 99p a few years back. Great book, especially for all the old pics, stats and skulduggery that used to go on. Bargain.

Alternatively try Amazon where it's £5.66. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Death-Marco-Pan ... 281&sr=8-1

or your local library - free.

dilemna

cajun_cyclist wrote:

Helmets is one thing but during his career, Pantani must have ridden steel and aluminium and nowadays there are other materials they ride bicycles on. Steel looks classic, this must be a Pantani styled Bianchi but I doubt if it is the same one he rode. This one must be aluminium.

It's got two flat tyres.

LeicesterLad

dilemna wrote:

LeicesterLad wrote:

Dabber wrote:

LeicesterLad wrote:

Anyone read Matt Rendall's book on Pantani? Is it worth the £2 in 'the Works'?

The Works? What/where's that?

Its a discount bookshop in Leicester (think they have shops elsewhere, and they ARE online), one of them places that has 12month old books for 99p...can't complain really, got slaying the badger from there for £2, they have a great selection of Wildlife and Cooking books (both float my boat), and alot of the novels appear to be quite recent. Bought the whole 'girl with the...' set fo £4 a couple of years ago now. Obviously a lot of the stuff is naff, or not so current, but now and again a bargain still in the chart type book crops up that waterstones and amazon have up for £20 and the works have it for £2.99...Im rambling now, im not usually a fan of this type of shop but really can't grumble, i find myself nipping in on my lunchbreak quite often and buying all mannor of sh*t....

I picked up the Officiel Tour de France 1903 - 2004 for 99p a few years back. Great book, especially for all the old pics, stats and skulduggery that used to go on. Bargain.

Alternatively try Amazon where it's £5.66. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Death-Marco-Pan ... 281&sr=8-1

or your local library - free.

The updated to 2007 one is in the Works now for £2.99...also a bargain!

dabber

LeicesterLad wrote:

The updated to 2007 one is in the Works now for £2.99...also a bargain!

Tbh, since I originally asked the question re: The Works, I've held off from ordering from Amazon. This is as a result of reading the posts on this thread.
Pantani has always been the rider I've most enjoyed watching. Watching him climb and blow away the opposition is just amazing... very charismatic and flamboyant as well. Alpe D'Huez 1997... just amazing stuff.

Now, I'm not naive and I always knew he wasn't exactly doing it all unaided. However, having seen the posts here I don't think I'd really appreciated quite how much PEDs were involved.
So, do I really want to read this book and have all my illusions blown away. :shock:

Bottom line... I guess I'll have to read it now it's in my mind.

dougzz

@Dabber - Having sporting heroes is always likely to leave you disillusioned. Maybe I'm just too old and cynical :?

ddraver

Dabber - there really is no debate about it tbh...

cajun_cyclist

True winners to me will always be the honest clean athletes.

Whether it be doing something shady on the football pitch, bribing officials or doping, these unsavoury means are never done by winners. Besides such kinds hurt the clean athletes. In the Olympics, I would think the riders are tested and hopefully, in this day and age, clean riders win. In some professional races, perhaps you would say a great number of them compete through PEDs.

shinyhelmut

cajun_cyclist wrote:

True winners to me will always be the honest clean athletes.

Whether it be doing something shady on the football pitch, bribing officials or doping, these unsavoury means are never done by winners. Besides such kinds hurt the clean athletes. In the Olympics, I would think the riders are tested and hopefully, in this day and age, clean riders win. In some professional races, perhaps you would say a great number of them compete through PEDs.

Like Beijing you mean?

pollys_bott

LeicesterLad wrote:

Anyone read Matt Rendall's book on Pantani? Is it worth the £2 in 'the Works'?

Very much so - a bit heavy going in places but interesting because I knew little of his background and I found the scientific stuff on EPO fascinating.

cajun_cyclist

ShinyHelmut wrote:

cajun_cyclist wrote:

True winners to me will always be the honest clean athletes.

Whether it be doing something shady on the football pitch, bribing officials or doping, these unsavoury means are never done by winners. Besides such kinds hurt the clean athletes. In the Olympics, I would think the riders are tested and hopefully, in this day and age, clean riders win. In some professional races, perhaps you would say a great number of them compete through PEDs.

Like Beijing you mean?

Riders, I should have said cyclists:

Also, Italian cyclist Davide Rebellin had tested positive for Cera and had been stripped of the silver medal he earned in the men's road race.[19]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Summe ... edal_table

Yes, I would hope most of the Track and Road cyclists as shown in this table were clean or the tests caught them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_20 ... rs#Cycling

keydon

cajun_cyclist wrote:

The Pantani (pink) museum in his home town of Cesenatico, it is amazing that he does retain a following, right after he passed away I visited his website and you know, they and you might see them on ebay from time to time, sold special Pantani / Pirate bandanas.

http://italiancyclingjournal.blogspot.c ... ntani.html

I don't know who made it a "fashion statement", Cipollini or Pantani or who did it first but I think they made it popular some with cyclists, I'd even see people out there wearing them on the bike.

I was reading the other day on why he was popular, individual, a bit mystic. Not quite a throwback to the old days but was not corporate whereas it does seem some riders nowadays are corporate.

Re read the 2nd half of the Rendell book the other day to try to absorb the science in it and there is a lot in there.

Then, I've got the Velo Press book and it has an interview with the Danish girl he was so in love with.

He seemed like half sports star, half rock star and the end in a way is a bit like that of some rock stars, maybe not exactly but reminds me of that a bit. And in other ways, he was an addict and I reread the Rendell book and his parents would not oblige him to be sent to rehabilitation and that was really what he needed, to be committed to Rehab to work those demons out, he went some voluntarily but still went back to his old ways. Like Maradona, Pantani had lots of money so they really needed to get strict with Pantani, I'm pretty sure it was compulsory for Maradona to get treatment. That is what Marco needed.

It's a bit odd, Coppi could have been saved if he had received the right medical treatment, thus it is for Pantani too I would conjecture.

I knew he met Maradona, I reread that part, he went to where Maradona was undergoing rehab according to Rendell and talked to Maradona over the fence, I had the mistaken idea Pantani was in rehab in Cuba, but no, he went and found Maradona for himself. Maradona has commented on when he met Pantani as well. I believe Diego attributes at least some of Pantani's problems to the press drilling him but hey, look it up for yourself.

Something about him, Pantani, is fascinating, I made sure I got it and I still have it, the Cycle Sport memoriam issue for Pantani. I've got to say I think he's still the 2nd most popular in cycling in the last 20 years, maybe I'm wrong but I see it that way. That's debatable after all, Contador may have more press clippings, may be more commercially viable. I'm not sure, Armstrong, Contador, Marco, Cavendish, all.

Ian has mentioned the Ronchi book disparagingly, Ronchi, a woman was his agent and yeah, I'd probably find it hard to go through that book again as well, it probably wanders too much.

Compulsory rehab makes little or no difference and often makes matters worse than they were, some people are iredeemable, largely because of the money and the lack of a recognisable rock bottom.

ms_tree

cajun_cyclist wrote:

The real one is in Lo Spazio - I've seen it, yeah, I've touched it.

cajun_cyclist

Oh, that must have been a thrill, thanks for telling us Ms. Tree. I happened to find this upon an image search so I'm not exactly sure if this was the real bike but I've seen Marco on a number of different bicycles at that. That Rendell book also describes his first bike, his first quality bike and so on.

No_Ta_Doctor

I struggle with Pantani.

I loved him as rider. His elegance out of the saddle, his breathtaking attacks, he was the epitome of the grimpeur. Without doubt he was the rider I most enjoyed watching since Millar.
His demise was tragic and heartbreaking and I wouldn't wish it on any rider.

But I still feel uncomfortable with the hero worship he receives to this day. He's part of the dark days of cycling, when the sport refused to take responsibility for the Festina affair. Pantani, as much as LA, Landis, Hamilton, Contador and all the rest betrayed the sport. I find it hard to forgive him, but even harder to hate him for it.

clanton

No tA Doctor wrote:

I struggle with Pantani.

I loved him as rider. His elegance out of the saddle, his breathtaking attacks, he was the epitome of the grimpeur. Without doubt he was the rider I most enjoyed watching since Millar.
His demise was tragic and heartbreaking and I wouldn't wish it on any rider.

But I still feel uncomfortable with the hero worship he receives to this day. He's part of the dark days of cycling, when the sport refused to take responsibility for the Festina affair. Pantani, as much as LA, Landis, Hamilton, Contador and all the rest betrayed the sport. I find it hard to forgive him, but even harder to hate him for it.

Well put.

dabber

Dabber wrote:

Tbh, since I originally asked the question re: The Works, I've held off from ordering from Amazon. This is as a result of reading the posts on this thread.
Pantani has always been the rider I've most enjoyed watching. Watching him climb and blow away the opposition is just amazing... very charismatic and flamboyant as well. Alpe D'Huez 1997... just amazing stuff.

Now, I'm not naive and I always knew he wasn't exactly doing it all unaided. However, having seen the posts here I don't think I'd really appreciated quite how much PEDs were involved.
So, do I really want to read this book and have all my illusions blown away. :shock:

Bottom line... I guess I'll have to read it now it's in my mind.

I know it's bad form to quote oneself but it's been a while since posting the above.. so please indulge me.

I knew I'd have to read the Rendell book and having done so I almost wish I hadn't. A very interesting read but the bottom line is that I can't now think of Pantani in the same "hero worship" terms as before. It's just not the same watching those videos of his expoits... very sad really.

dave_1

any rider around him or near him was likely juiced so if it were all clean he would have been in the lead groups for sure and maybe more. He got addicted to drugs cause he was introduced to them by cycling. Who let drug culture grow in the 1990s or said and say nothing today??

ocdupalais

Dabber wrote:

I knew I'd have to read the Rendell book and having done so I almost wish I hadn't. A very interesting read but the bottom line is that I can't now think of Pantani in the same "hero worship" terms as before. It's just not the same watching those videos of his expoits... very sad really.

Same here. Bloody shame, innit?!

For me the pinnacle was '99 Giro: Pantani responding to, then dropping, some of the other hero worshipped climbers of his generation (Heras, Gotti, Simoni, etc).

Magical stuff! Not so much David & Goliath, but David & Whole Bunch of Other Davids.

I know it's cod-psychology (is there any other sort?), but I suspect the way in which we all try to make sense of the whole 'drugs/cheating/fallen idols thing' often mirrors how we treat other relationships in our lives that have not panned out how we wanted. Some people are "killers" (you done me wrong: you're dead to me!) - others TRY to be more lenient but can NEVER stop banging on about it (bitter, moi?)... And some can seemingly get over the hurt, smash a few of them Belgian beers down (see other thread) and are champing at the bit for the next Classic/Tour etc, with their new love.

Some folk stay in touch - and are on good terms (have you forgiven D.Millar yet?)! - with their ex's: others couldn't think of anything worse.

Perhaps some learned and scholarly types on this 'ere forum can offer some bona fide scientific/psycho-analytical back-up to what I'm trying to say - I imagine there are labels for such stuff (not just d!ckh'ed or tw@t)?

Le Commentateur

I think he suffered from a narcissistic personality disorder that was fed by his cycling career and those who surrounded him and got out of control once he was exposed.

No_Ta_Doctor

OCDuPalais wrote:

Dabber wrote:

I knew I'd have to read the Rendell book and having done so I almost wish I hadn't. A very interesting read but the bottom line is that I can't now think of Pantani in the same "hero worship" terms as before. It's just not the same watching those videos of his expoits... very sad really.

Same here. Bloody shame, innit?!

For me the pinnacle was '99 Giro: Pantani responding to, then dropping, some of the other hero worshipped climbers of his generation (Heras, Gotti, Simoni, etc).

Magical stuff! Not so much David & Goliath, but David & Whole Bunch of Other Davids.

I know it's cod-psychology (is there any other sort?), but I suspect the way in which we all try to make sense of the whole 'drugs/cheating/fallen idols thing' often mirrors how we treat other relationships in our lives that have not panned out how we wanted. Some people are "killers" (you done me wrong: you're dead to me!) - others TRY to be more lenient but can NEVER stop banging on about it (bitter, moi?)... And some can seemingly get over the hurt, smash a few of them Belgian beers down (see other thread) and are champing at the bit for the next Classic/Tour etc, with their new love.

Some folk stay in touch - and are on good terms (have you forgiven D.Millar yet?)! - with their ex's: others couldn't think of anything worse.

Perhaps some learned and scholarly types on this 'ere forum can offer some bona fide scientific/psycho-analytical back-up to what I'm trying to say - I imagine there are labels for such stuff (not just d!ckh'ed or tw@t)?

I'll never love again after Festina.

scrumpydave

Somwetimes I switch to the drops on a climb and think of Marco...

frenchfighter

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bilobicles/

heavymental

Well put OCDuPalais.

takethehighroad

There's a new documentary on BBC Sounds about Pantani.

I've only just started listening, but I'm shocked (as will @rick_chasey as I think we're both 34) to find I'm the same age as Pantani was when he died

phreak

The link https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/series/p0fsc9pg

jimmyjams

phreak said:

The link https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/series/p0fsc9pg

Thanks a lot for the link.
I've listened to part 1, interesting but I hope it improves (I'm not convinced by the validity of some opinions so far expressed about him by those who barely knew him, or about Italy then - never met him, were never there then, etc). I was in Italy occasionally over those years, not for long, 4-5 weeks each year, but my impressions are different.

On another level ….one of those times I was in Italy coincided with when Pantani took part in the Giro, and what impressed me most was the efficiency of his fans.
Very near where I decided to wait and watch one stage, a Pantani-fan-club later arrived in a couple of pick-up trucks, and in no time they had erected a 8 m long wooden structure, 5 m high (so with two sitting/watching levels), and equipped with their own food and music. Dismantling as quickly afterwards.