JTL
Comments
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Pross wrote:iainf72 wrote:I did a bit of comparing who did better or worse under the Sky system a while ago. There are quite a lot of people who got worse so it's clearly not for everyone
Dowsett commented in the latest Cyclist mag that Movistar isn't that different from Sky, just Sky got to the n'th degreee
Who has gone better since leaving? Gerrans is the obvious choice but can't really think of anyone else. I had high hopes for Nordhaug but he's had a nothing season (although mainly due to injury I think), Dowsett has possibly done better but you would expect him to be improving with age and experience. Even Cav hasn't improved his results since leaving (arguably one of his worst seasons other than the Giro red jersey). Plenty of riders seem to have stalled since moving to Sky though, unless I was a young stage racer with ambitions of GT success in a few years I don't think I would go there for reasons other than money.
Rogers has a good year (certainly a good Tour).0 -
inseine wrote:Pross wrote:iainf72 wrote:I did a bit of comparing who did better or worse under the Sky system a while ago. There are quite a lot of people who got worse so it's clearly not for everyone
Dowsett commented in the latest Cyclist mag that Movistar isn't that different from Sky, just Sky got to the n'th degreee
Who has gone better since leaving? Gerrans is the obvious choice but can't really think of anyone else. I had high hopes for Nordhaug but he's had a nothing season (although mainly due to injury I think), Dowsett has possibly done better but you would expect him to be improving with age and experience. Even Cav hasn't improved his results since leaving (arguably one of his worst seasons other than the Giro red jersey). Plenty of riders seem to have stalled since moving to Sky though, unless I was a young stage racer with ambitions of GT success in a few years I don't think I would go there for reasons other than money.
Rogers has a good year (certainly a good Tour).
Arguably had a better season last year though.0 -
Just to make it clear, i wasn't really having a go at JTL, I would probably have done the same thing thing as cycling is a short career, especially when you don't really get going till you're 27.
My point was simply that he must have known that he'd get more money at Sky, but far fewer opportunities to ride for himself.
The disappointing thing for me is just how little we've seen of him this year, even riding as a team mate. Something isn't right, we just don't know if it's physical or mental."I have a lovely photo of a Camargue horse but will not post it now" (Frenchfighter - July 2013)0 -
Yes, its unheard of in cycling for a rider to be really good then really shit, that never happens, its never down to certain things either
Blog on my first and now second season of proper riding/racing - www.firstseasonracing.com0 -
Pross wrote:inseine wrote:Pross wrote:iainf72 wrote:I did a bit of comparing who did better or worse under the Sky system a while ago. There are quite a lot of people who got worse so it's clearly not for everyone
Dowsett commented in the latest Cyclist mag that Movistar isn't that different from Sky, just Sky got to the n'th degreee
Who has gone better since leaving? Gerrans is the obvious choice but can't really think of anyone else. I had high hopes for Nordhaug but he's had a nothing season (although mainly due to injury I think), Dowsett has possibly done better but you would expect him to be improving with age and experience. Even Cav hasn't improved his results since leaving (arguably one of his worst seasons other than the Giro red jersey). Plenty of riders seem to have stalled since moving to Sky though, unless I was a young stage racer with ambitions of GT success in a few years I don't think I would go there for reasons other than money.
Rogers has a good year (certainly a good Tour).
Arguably had a better season last year though.
Yep - last year was Rogers' most successful season for a good few years - and this season's not even coming close to it0 -
inkyfingers wrote:Just to make it clear, i wasn't really having a go at JTL, I would probably have done the same thing thing as cycling is a short career, especially when you don't really get going till you're 27.
My point was simply that he must have known that he'd get more money at Sky, but far fewer opportunities to ride for himself.
The disappointing thing for me is just how little we've seen of him this year, even riding as a team mate. Something isn't right, we just don't know if it's physical or mental.
Yeah...Big Maggy has said in his commentary that he thinks that its just taking JTL a long time to adjust to racing at this level, but that he thinks he'll get there. Guess we'll see - he has another year on his contract, doesnt he...0 -
I think any rider new to the top level of racing would love to get a Sky contract. Why not?
Best equipment, best personalised coaching, probably, every detail taken care of. Great development process. If you do a good job in the lesser races you will get the chance in the bigger stuff.
With JTL I dont believe Sky would have thrown him in to races if, as they like to point out, he was not "hitting the numbers". It would be interesting to find out just what the problem is.0 -
mike6 wrote:I think any rider new to the top level of racing would love to get a Sky contract. Why not?
Best equipment, best personalised coaching, probably, every detail taken care of. Great development process. If you do a good job in the lesser races you will get the chance in the bigger stuff.
With JTL I dont believe Sky would have thrown him in to races if, as they like to point out, he was not "hitting the numbers". It would be interesting to find out just what the problem is.
If I were a rider with ambitions in one day racing I would go to OPQS or several other teams before considering Sky. Their strength is their single mindedness in trying to win big stage races, their weakness is their single mindedness in trying to win big stage races at the expense of concentrating on trying to win single day races.0 -
I guess the lesson in all of this might be Mr Sutton is a better judge of ability the Dave...Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0
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iainf72 wrote:I guess the lesson in all of this might be Mr Sutton is a better judge of ability the Dave...
Uncle Shane's a fair judge of talent, to be sure, but even he can screw up - he told Laura Trott she was too small to make it as a trackie
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why do people assume sky pay more? surely riding for the worlds top team is worth a few £k off any salary"Unfortunately these days a lot of people don’t understand the real quality of a bike" Ernesto Colnago0
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RichN95 wrote:
On the other hand, the whole point of setting up the team in the first place was to give British riders a chance, so it would be remiss of them not to give him a shot.iainf72 wrote:I guess the lesson in all of this might be Mr Sutton is a better judge of ability the Dave...
Oh, fo' shizzle.
I suspect they know who they'd want through the door though, and JTL and Downing were a bit left field.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
iainf72 wrote:I guess the lesson in all of this might be Mr Sutton is a better judge of ability the Dave...
100% correct
Dave doesn't know cycling so well0 -
He doesn't need to, he's very good at hiring backroom staff who do know what they are doing. Brailsford is effectively a project manager but a very good one.0
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Pross wrote:mike6 wrote:I think any rider new to the top level of racing would love to get a Sky contract. Why not?
Best equipment, best personalised coaching, probably, every detail taken care of. Great development process. If you do a good job in the lesser races you will get the chance in the bigger stuff.
With JTL I dont believe Sky would have thrown him in to races if, as they like to point out, he was not "hitting the numbers". It would be interesting to find out just what the problem is.
If I were a rider with ambitions in one day racing I would go to OPQS or several other teams before considering Sky. Their strength is their single mindedness in trying to win big stage races, their weakness is their single mindedness in trying to win big stage races at the expense of concentrating on trying to win single day races.
Quite. I agree not all riders are GT riders, but with there development system and single minded approach to getting the best out of all the riders, not just the stars, it would seem to be the best of all starts. If you are young and new to the pro ranks what better place to get the best coaching and advice, to see what your potential is. If after a couple of seasons you find you are a better one day rider, then you move on, but with all the benefits of the Sky system in your legs and head.0 -
I'm inclined to go with Brian Smith's on-record comments in April that the Sky way of training wasn't working and that he was having to change his coach and go back to how he trained in 2012.0
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Whatever has happened its a shame for the lad that a career that looked like it was taking off this time last season has come to a grinding halt.
Especially as Sky were so keen to sign him they helped Endura defend his lead in the TofB last year (IMO)0 -
mike6 wrote:If you are young and new to the pro ranks what better place to get the best coaching and advice, to see what your potential is. If after a couple of seasons you find you are a better one day rider, then you move on, but with all the benefits of the Sky system in your legs and head.
Why is there this assumption that Sky have the best coaching and advice? It may be that it is the best for some but not for others. They are a big money team who have hired well but I'm sure there are plenty of other good innovative coaches in the world some working for teams that would be more suited to the kind of rider JTL is.
it's a hard life if you don't weaken.0 -
argyllflyer wrote:I'm inclined to go with Brian Smith's on-record comments in April that the Sky way of training wasn't working and that he was having to change his coach and go back to how he trained in 2012.
I agree I don't think training is one size fits all. How he was training was working for him and he was producing useful results. I also suspect that the pressure to succeed might also be telling a little.0 -
I see your point. But that would imply that Sky are cleaner than Endura, when everyone knows UK Postal are so doped up that their power meters are actually cleverly disguised vials of some new wonder drug which can only be detected by monitoring the bobbing of a rider's head.okgo wrote:Yes, its unheard of in cycling for a rider to be really good then really shoot, that never happens, its never down to certain things either
Or something like that. Sometimes it's hard to tell what conspiracies I'm meant to believe.N00b commuter with delusions of competence
FCN 11 - If you scalp me, do I not bleed?0 -
Yellow Peril wrote:argyllflyer wrote:I'm inclined to go with Brian Smith's on-record comments in April that the Sky way of training wasn't working and that he was having to change his coach and go back to how he trained in 2012.
I agree I don't think training is one size fits all. How he was training was working for him and he was producing useful results. I also suspect that the pressure to succeed might also be telling a little.
Training is most certainly not "one size fits all", and knowing, as we do, Sky's attention to detail, he will have his own personal plan. Perhaps it is taking him time to adjust to it,he has come to top pro racing later than most. After years of doing his usual training perhaps the step up is proving more difficult than all concerned thought.
He has been a promising rider for a long time but never stepped up. Is he prone to illness or injury?0 -
mike6 wrote:
Training is most certainly not "one size fits all", and knowing, as we do, Sky's attention to detail, he will have his own personal plan. Perhaps it is taking him time to adjust to it,he has come to top pro racing later than most. After years of doing his usual training perhaps the step up is proving more difficult than all concerned thought.
He has been a promising rider for a long time but never stepped up. Is he prone to illness or injury?
The condition of the main GC squad was clearly off in the Tour so perhaps this is a wider problem for them. Was it not EBH that was quoted (off record) saying they'd arrived in Corsica tired?
Now Cycling News' forum is back up I can post what exactly Brian Smith said in April about the Classics squad's failure and JTL during the Fleche Wallonne commentary:"They've got it wrong. They've got to realise that not everybody's Bradley Wiggins. Bradley's got a big... (interrupted by Contador changing bike) ...You've got to remember they've so much success on the track and most of them were training, the team pursuit and team sprinters, were training to the letter. And when it comes to the road, it's so many variables and Bradley Wiggins is only - within the world, you know, 5% of bike riders or even humans - that can take that amount of work and he's come at the right time. Chris Froome is another one that can take the amount of work that Kerrison gives them at Team Sky, the coach there. And not everybody's like that and everybody's different.
I believe the success of the Tour de France and the stage race riders.... they've had tremendous success, and they're producing some great results, but when it comes to the Classics, taking the Classics teams to Tenerife and training them over there hasn't worked but the thing is, Dave Brailsford has taken a chance. He's taken them over there to something that works for stage race riders, and he's taken a chance and it hasn't worked. So, hats off to him for taking that chance but I think he has to put his hands up and say "we got it wrong".
Nobody... very few riders in that Team Sky, apart from possibly Chris Froome, can do the amount of work that Bradley Wiggins has done in the past to win what he has won, and I think the Classics team went out and I believe from the training in Tenerife that one of the most experienced riders that they've got in the Classics team pulled, stopped, stopped the whole team from training on a day and said "this is too hard, we cannot do this." And a lot of the riders have gone into these races feeling jaded. I was in Maastricht at the start of Amstel Gold, and just looking at their faces, it's as if they didn't seem happy, they had a bit of pressure on themselves because every Classic that goes by there's more and more pressure on them.
I had a word with Jon Tiernan-Locke, and he obviously has been doing... learning from these Classics, he's been getting bottles and looking after a lot of good riders. But even himself, he was getting trained by Kerrison but it wasn't doing him any good and over the last few weeks he's decided to change his coach and go to another person, and go back to what was working last year because he believes that the form he had with Endura Racing was better than he is at the moment, so from looking at these different scenarios, yeah there's great champions like Bradley Wiggins but not everybody in Team Sky is Bradley Wiggins and can cope with the training methods there.
I think you have look at when I was a pro and maybe Sean was a pro, and 75% of the work was on feel, 25% was on science, and I think now it's 50-50 but Sky have gone 75 Science and probably 25% on feel and for me I think they have to go back to a bit more on the feel of the riders, and maybe talk to the riders and get them back to enjoying themselves a wee bit more.
Last year, he (JTL) was as good as Joachim Rodriguez at these sort of finishes, he is one of the best in the world. This year he feels a bit tired, jaded, and it's just because of the workload and the training he's been doing. He wants to go back to what he was doing last year.0 -
mike6 wrote:Yellow Peril wrote:argyllflyer wrote:I'm inclined to go with Brian Smith's on-record comments in April that the Sky way of training wasn't working and that he was having to change his coach and go back to how he trained in 2012.
I agree I don't think training is one size fits all. How he was training was working for him and he was producing useful results. I also suspect that the pressure to succeed might also be telling a little.
Training is most certainly not "one size fits all", and knowing, as we do, Sky's attention to detail, he will have his own personal plan. Perhaps it is taking him time to adjust to it,he has come to top pro racing later than most. After years of doing his usual training perhaps the step up is proving more difficult than all concerned thought.
He has been a promising rider for a long time but never stepped up. Is he prone to illness or injury?
You're making assumptions here - you certainly don't know it and it certainly isn't true.
JTL is struggling to make the jump to pro-tour, hardly a surprise as it is very hard!0 -
argyllflyer - thank you, very interesting insight from B Smith.http://www.georgesfoundation.org
http://100hillsforgeorge.blogspot.com/
http://www.12on12in12.blogspot.co.uk/0 -
Rodrego Hernandez wrote:mike6 wrote:Yellow Peril wrote:argyllflyer wrote:I'm inclined to go with Brian Smith's on-record comments in April that the Sky way of training wasn't working and that he was having to change his coach and go back to how he trained in 2012.
I agree I don't think training is one size fits all. How he was training was working for him and he was producing useful results. I also suspect that the pressure to succeed might also be telling a little.
Training is most certainly not "one size fits all", and knowing, as we do, Sky's attention to detail, he will have his own personal plan. Perhaps it is taking him time to adjust to it,he has come to top pro racing later than most. After years of doing his usual training perhaps the step up is proving more difficult than all concerned thought.
He has been a promising rider for a long time but never stepped up. Is he prone to illness or injury?
You're making assumptions here - you certainly don't know it and it certainly isn't true.
JTL is struggling to make the jump to pro-tour, hardly a surprise as it is very hard!
No, I am not making assumptions. I was an endurance coach for over 20 years and the days of one size fits all coaching is long gone. JTLs training might not suit him, but you can bet your life it was tailored specifically for him and not straight out of a book. Sky are paying these guys lots of money, riders and support staff, and will expect value from there coaches as well as riders.
Every athlete is different and JTL could merely be struggling with the new workload, and expectations. He is a talented guy and should get back on track.0 -
So he changed coaches in April-ish? but there is no sign of his form returning to last season's level.0
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Pross wrote:So he changed coaches in April-ish? but there is no sign of his form returning to last season's level.
Well, up to and around when Brian Smith said that, he had started 6 one day races and finished in time (if at all) twice, and only finished once in four stage races.
Thereafter, he then DNF'd the Bayern-Rundfahrt but has since finished both Tour de Suisse and Tour of Austria in a domestique role. An improvement on the first 3/4 months of the season when he seems to have been in poor condition.
No idea what he's training for just now but seems pretty busy in the SW. It's not impossible he's training to peak for the last few months of the season. Lombardy or perhaps Milano-Torino if Sky enter?0 -
mroli wrote:argyllflyer - thank you, very interesting insight from B Smith.
Yeah - thanks argyllflyer.
Brian's comments about Wiggins (and Froome) are a reminder to all - especially the doubting snides - that these guys are seeking to absorb the science of operating at the extremities of human capacity, but can only actually express it (i.e. perform) artistically. In other words, you can seem to be as much of a robot as you like (Kiriyenka, I'm looking at you...), but, as a human being, you're flawed, fallable and Froomey...
Brian Smith's comments made me feel prouder than ever about Wiggins and Froome - as athletes. They both reigned supreme and are examples of where Sky got it right. JTL is clearly a work in progress. In some ways, his team having the flexibility of approach in providing him with what he needs to turn things around will be as big an achievement as some of their more prominent victories.
He only needs to win one big race this year and he's the new Phil Gilbert!0 -
Maybe.
But he'd better not hang about trying to find the sweet spot.
He's 29 in December isn't he, and older than Froome-dog.
Realise that the top guys are peaking in their 30s, but that's not that far away for him.Can I upgrade???0
This discussion has been closed.
