Save The NHS - Drop The Bill

MaxwellBygraves

*Long post alert!*

"The collective principle asserts that... no society can legitimately call itself civilised if a sick person is denied medical aid because of lack of means" - Nye Bevan

Yet here we are over 60 years later, and Mr. Cameron wants to take that right away from us. He thinks he has the right to sell our NHS. To turn patients into customers. The Health and Social Care bill.

Interestingly enough, the Tories didn't just oppose the creation of the NHS. They voted against it at the first reading of the bill, the second reading of the bill and against it at the third reading of the bill. It would appear that in 2012 the Tories still have muchthe same amount of contempt for the NHS as they did post second world war upon it's creation. Despite spending millions upon millions on propoganda campaigns, 'detoxification' and such like, it has become clear that it's really just the same old nasty party in power.

I feel at this point I should make it clear that this is not an attempt to canvass votes for Labour or any other party. I know that Labour did plenty of damage to the NHS, using PFI schemes to construct new hospitals which met the needs of private contractors over and above the needs of patients and local people.

Obviously, David Cameron was very careful at neutralising the NHS as an issue before the last general election - Tory strategists know that if the NHS plays a key role in any election, you may as well just hand over the keys to Labour/Lib Dems for another 5 years. They spent a lot of money reassuring the public that they would not touch the NHS (that detoxifying previously mentioned). Remember these campaign posters that promised no top down reorganisation of the NHS - http://blog.plain-sense.co.uk/2011/02/o ... issed.html

Yet as the blogger correctly points out, if you read very carefully through the misleading language, the clues are there. But as David knows, telling the truth won't win you an election. Here we are barely a few years into the coalition agreement and David is apparently 'determined' to force through top-down reorganisation at any cost quite contrary to his 'Your mate Dave' election promises before the election.

See our 'dear leader' promising exactly the opposite of what he's doing 'at all costs'- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nH2EmVGowCk

So, what's wrong with the bill? Why is Cameron determined to force it upon us despite public, professional and patient opposition?Why are people worried about opening the door for private sector influence? Why should I be worried? What can I do to stop it? Below I've tried to cobble together some resources which hopefully answer some questions.

Michael Moore on the NHS, and why we should value it, from an American perspective - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VyQhhDwmr8

Seven simple, plain English reasons why the Health bill is wrong - http://myemail.constantcontact.com/Seve ... vKWWPlT67M

Statistics that refute the claim that compared to other countries the NHS hoovers up cash - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... per_capita

The myth of declining NHS productivity in the Lancet. This one is really important as Cameron and Lansley will bombard you with half truths and lies to convince you that the NHS is reudcing productivity and is inefficient - http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lance ... 0/fulltext

A good article in the Mirror talking about the impact of the reforms - http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/im ... rms-682688

Excellent article from Richard Murphy explaining why the NHS does not need the market - http://ht.ly/91WHh

Always on the money - the Daily Mash - http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/heal ... 202134887/

Polling data from Yougov showing that the majority of the public are opposed to the Health bill or simply don't understand - http://liberalconspiracy.org/2012/02/13 ... -nhs-bill/

MaxwellBygraves

Why healthcare is not like coffee - http://t1ber1us.wordpress.com/2011/08/0 ... fee-shops/

Why the private sector in the NHS is a bad idea - http://t1ber1us.wordpress.com/2012/02/1 ... hs-reform/

Why patient 'choice' won't save lives - http://www.lancet.com/journals/lancet/a ... 5/fulltext

Conservatives start squabbling over the negative effects of the bill - http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012 ... es-lansley

More Tory sleaze related to healthcare - http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011 ... e-liam-fox

Allegations from Labourlist that Cameron is avoiding PMQ's, particularly when he has questions to answer over unemployment/NHS - http://labourlist.org/2012/02/if-camero ... -the-test/

Why we must stop Cameron messing with the NHS - http://etonmess.blogspot.com/2012/02/pa ... orget.html

Evidence from Dr. Eoin Clarke that far from making the NHS more efficient they are adding to bureaucracy - eoin-clarke.blogspot.com/2012/02/holy-jesus-2-diagrams-that-emphasise.html

Yet here's my favourite and most scathing attack on the reforms...coming from, of all places, the Mail On Sunday bizzarely. Surely the game is up when the party political newspaper of the Conservatives, the Daily Mail publishes such an article - how private companies want to help Lansley and Cameron to dismantle the NHS - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... osals.html


Dr. Ben Goldacre, the Bad Science fella, on Lansley and the reforms - http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... d-evidence

So, what can anyone do about it?

Here's a great post from Dr. Eoin Clarke about practical things that people can do to show their dissatisfaction - http://eoin-clarke.blogspot.com/2012/02 ... blood.html

MaxwellBygraves

Sign Dr.Dr Kailash Chand's e-petition to drop the bill. It needs 100,000 signatures to enable the possibility of it being debated in the HoC - http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/22670

As you can probably tell, I care about the NHS passionately - I am well aware it is not perfect, but I am extremely grateful for the work their staff do which has benefited me, my friends and many of my relatives. I am sure this is the same for nearly everyone reading this.

The NHS belongs to all of us. The founding stone of the NHS is patient care, don't let a few stupid politicians and their millionaire cronies turn that into profit. I will try and post any additional material and information that comes to light as the process unfolds here when I can. Sorry for the long post, but I thought the issue warranted it.

I started on a quote from Nye Bevan so may as well finish on one - "the NHS will last as long as their are folk left with the faith to fight for it."

Cleat Eastwood

I signed the epetition on facebook. My mums old enough to remember the days when the doctor would come round and forgo taking money of her mum for treatment, and some families couldn't receive basic care for having no income - those days are within living memory, and with tory plans they are only a stones throw away. You woudn't think it was the 21st century sometimes.

TheStone

Although these changes don't look like a good idea (and I'll be surprised if they go through), are there really any plans to charge for healthcare or is it just politics?

MaxwellBygraves

TheStone wrote:

Although these changes don't look like a good idea (and I'll be surprised if they go through), are there really any plans to charge for healthcare or is it just politics?

Obviously Cameron will say no, but we've seen how he'll lie about anything to stay in power. It opens the door to privatisation, which is something neither Thatch nor New Labour would've dared do. As with all these things, it's softly softly to try and avoid any backlash and get it through quietly.

Cameron has gambled that people won't care, won't understand and won't be bothered to do anything about it. The biggest gamble of his political career and it's up to everyone to make sure he loses.

As I tried to illustrate in my original post, ideologically the Tories hate the NHS - a truly socialist idea which is at odds with so much of core Conservative philosophy, which is why it simply can't be trusted in their hands.

CiB

Sorry MB but posting a herem-scarem post that contains vague references to the end of the world along with a lot of links to Youtube (that I can't watch here) and other links that pre-suppose that I believe your arm-waving and that I have time to go off and read them all isn't good enough. Don't give me links to other people's opinions. Tell me yours.

What is Cameron doing then? Is it the case that in 6 month's time a trip to the doctor will be accompanied with a large bill as we leave his honoured presence? Will it be like the pre-war days when you had to be rich to be looked after? No. The idea that the NHS is being disbanded is bunkum.

Stick some facts here, and then compare them with what the NHS bill actually provides for, then we can discuss it.

MaxwellBygraves

CiB wrote:

Sorry MB but posting a herem-scarem post that contains vague references to the end of the world along with a lot of links to Youtube (that I can't watch here) and other links that pre-suppose that I believe your arm-waving and that I have time to go off and read them all isn't good enough. Don't give me links to other people's opinions. Tell me yours.

What is Cameron doing then? Is it the case that in 6 month's time a trip to the doctor will be accompanied with a large bill as we leave his honoured presence? Will it be like the pre-war days when you had to be rich to be looked after? No. The idea that the NHS is being disbanded is bunkum.

Stick some facts here, and then compare them with what the NHS bill actually provides for, then we can discuss it.

You've asked for facts but then said you can't be bothered to go off and read them when I've posted them?!

I've made my opinion perfectly clear. I believe the HSCB will open the way to privatising the NHS, and I've provided evidence to show that. For God's sake, even arch-Tories are against the Tory health bill!!

See here conservativehome.blogs.com/thetorydiary/2012/02/david-cameron-claims-that-the-nhs-bill-will-cut-bureaucracy-but-there-will-be-a-new-national-commiss.html

I suppose in the interest of balance, I should post an article in favour of privatisation: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... NTCMP=SRCH

Just be aware that the author is a former investment banker and nw currently a director of Circle, the healthcare firm that already privately runs one NHS hospital in England and stands to benefit from the bill.

MaxwellBygraves

But don't get any ideas about reading ConHome regularly - I've heard itn turns your brain to poo.

CiB

MaxwellBygraves wrote:

You've asked for facts but then said you can't be bothered to go off and read them when I've
posted them?!

Nope. I said I can't view Youtube links and don't have time to follow a dozen links that will invariably involve the same lengthy diatribe of an introduction and some shouty arm-waving before inviting me to believe that in the writer's opinion this <chunk of legalise / politico speak> means the end of civilisation as we know it.

I'll have a look tonight, if I can be ar$ed.

TheStone

MaxwellBygraves wrote:

Obviously Cameron will say no, but we've seen how he'll lie about anything to stay in power. It opens the door to privatisation, which is something neither Thatch nor New Labour would've dared do. As with all these things, it's softly softly to try and avoid any backlash and get it through quietly.

Cameron has gambled that people won't care, won't understand and won't be bothered to do anything about it. The biggest gamble of his political career and it's up to everyone to make sure he loses.

As I tried to illustrate in my original post, ideologically the Tories hate the NHS - a truly socialist idea which is at odds with so much of core Conservative philosophy, which is why it simply can't be trusted in their hands.

There's a huge difference between privatisation and people having to pay to use the service.
Also, you can't relate the current parties to what they voted for 3 generations ago. The world has changed a lot.

I'm not defending the tories or this bill, but some perspective is needed.
Contrary to what the papers like to print, the NHS is not the envy of the world.

bianchimoon

CiB wrote:

MaxwellBygraves wrote:

You've asked for facts but then said you can't be bothered to go off and read them when I've
posted them?!

Nope. I said I can't view Youtube links and don't have time to follow a dozen links that will invariably involve the same lengthy diatribe of an introduction and some shouty arm-waving before inviting me to believe that in the writer's opinion this <chunk of legalise / politico speak> means the end of civilisation as we know it.

I'll have a look tonight, if I can be ar$ed.

why on earth are you bothering reading this thread, if you can't be @rsed, hopefully one day there'll still be an NHs for people like you and your family, providing people like maxwell can be @rsed to sit up and do something about it

Pross

TheStone wrote:

MaxwellBygraves wrote:

Obviously Cameron will say no, but we've seen how he'll lie about anything to stay in power. It opens the door to privatisation, which is something neither Thatch nor New Labour would've dared do. As with all these things, it's softly softly to try and avoid any backlash and get it through quietly.

Cameron has gambled that people won't care, won't understand and won't be bothered to do anything about it. The biggest gamble of his political career and it's up to everyone to make sure he loses.

As I tried to illustrate in my original post, ideologically the Tories hate the NHS - a truly socialist idea which is at odds with so much of core Conservative philosophy, which is why it simply can't be trusted in their hands.

There's a huge difference between privatisation and people having to pay to use the service.
Also, you can't relate the current parties to what they voted for 3 generations ago. The world has changed a lot.

I'm not defending the tories or this bill, but some perspective is needed.
Contrary to what the papers like to print, the NHS is not the envy of the world.

Perspective? It's a Cake Stop debate on a political issue, there's no room for perspective or compromise (and very little room for facts)

TheStone

bianchimoon wrote:

why on earth are you bothering reading this thread, if you can't be @rsed, hopefully one day there'll still be an NHs for people like you and your family, providing people like maxwell can be @rsed to sit up and do something about it

But the NHS isn't going anywhere.

We already have lots of privatisation within it. PPP, drug companies, cleaners etc. The Labour party drove lots of PPP and no-one shouted that it was the end of the NHS, despite it being terrible short term thinking.

The real threat for the future of the NHS is government debt. We're continuing to spend much more than we have to ensure one generation has excellent healthcare, high wages and huge pensions. The interest and then the actual debt will have to be paid back by the future generations, greatly reducing the amount they'll have to spend on their own healthcare.

CiB

bianchimoon wrote:

why on earth are you bothering reading this thread, if you can't be @rsed, hopefully one day there'll still be an NHs for people like you and your family, providing people like maxwell can be @rsed to sit up and do something about it

Why? Because an attention-grabbing title pulled me in (well done Max), I read it to see what was going on but found it was a load of links with very few facts here. When I queried that and suggested that OP might like to put his own interpretation of those 'facts' here instead of just linking to other people's opinions he didn't like it. As a compromise I've made a vague offer of having a look tonight, but I'm out for most of the evening and might not remember or even bother when I get back.

There doesn't seem much point anyway. Only lefties can be correct when it comes to all things NHS, and obviously the Tory party can't wait to get shut of it. It makes you wonder what they've been messing about at when they've been in power for roughly half of the 60 years that the NHS has existed for and we still have it. :roll:

MaxwellBygraves

TheStone wrote:

MaxwellBygraves wrote:

Obviously Cameron will say no, but we've seen how he'll lie about anything to stay in power. It opens the door to privatisation, which is something neither Thatch nor New Labour would've dared do. As with all these things, it's softly softly to try and avoid any backlash and get it through quietly.

Cameron has gambled that people won't care, won't understand and won't be bothered to do anything about it. The biggest gamble of his political career and it's up to everyone to make sure he loses.

As I tried to illustrate in my original post, ideologically the Tories hate the NHS - a truly socialist idea which is at odds with so much of core Conservative philosophy, which is why it simply can't be trusted in their hands.

There's a huge difference between privatisation and people having to pay to use the service.
Also, you can't relate the current parties to what they voted for 3 generations ago. The world has changed a lot.

I'm not defending the tories or this bill, but some perspective is needed.
Contrary to what the papers like to print, the NHS is not the envy of the world.

Actually, if you read some of the links you'll find that comparatively speaking the NHS is one of the most efficient healthcare services in the world. Certainly, the idea that it's a money black hole or can't cope with private intervention is simply a lie.

And on the subject of ideology, in a sense your right. The world has changed a lot. Yet the dominant political discourse of our time, neoliberalism, of which the Tories are the embodiement, is quite simply the opposite of what the NHS stands for. Which is why 'hand-wringers' like me worry so much when we see any politcal party interfering with the NHS. Or in fact in politics at all :P In a nutshell, Cameron is trying to change reality (the NHS) to fit his ideology, which of course mirrors dominant political thinking (anti-public, pro-'individual' pro-markets etc etc).

MaxwellBygraves

TheStone wrote:

bianchimoon wrote:

why on earth are you bothering reading this thread, if you can't be @rsed, hopefully one day there'll still be an NHs for people like you and your family, providing people like maxwell can be @rsed to sit up and do something about it

But the NHS isn't going anywhere.

We already have lots of privatisation within it. PPP, drug companies, cleaners etc. The Labour party drove lots of PPP and no-one shouted that it was the end of the NHS, despite it being terrible short term thinking.

You're right, and as I made clear in my original post, New Labour privatised non essential services in the NHS such as food and cleaning etc. as well as continuing the use of PFI schemes to build new hospitals which i was totally against . Yet neither New Labour or Thatch, bless her, went as far as this. Which is why it is such a huge political gamble for the Tories and why I'm determined not to let it pay off.

TheStone

MaxwellBygraves wrote:

Actually, if you read some of the links you'll find that comparatively speaking the NHS is one of the most efficient healthcare services in the world. Certainly, the idea that it's a money black hole or can't cope with private intervention is simply a lie.

And on the subject of ideology, in a sense your right. The world has changed a lot. Yet the dominant political discourse of our time, neoliberalism, of which the Tories are the embodiement, is quite simply the opposite of what the NHS stands for. Which is why 'hand-wringers' like me worry so much when we see any politcal party interfering with the NHS. Or in fact in politics at all :P In a nutshell, Cameron is trying to change reality (the NHS) to fit his ideology, which of course mirrors dominant political thinking (anti-public, pro-'individual' pro-markets etc etc).

I agree that it's not the black hole it's often made out to be and we don't actually spend as much (as a proportion of gdp) as many other countries. But also, the service is pretty poor and in my (and people I know) experience it's not improved over the last decade despite the increase in cost.

I'd never suggest the USA model. They may have better healthcare (for many), but spend about double. A lot of this money is wasted on insurance companies, legal depts and a ponzi education system!

There's really not that much difference between the main parties any more. Tories would be slightly smaller govt, Labour slightly larger. Their differences on welfare, education and health are tiny. A lot of Tory voters are getting to that age where they are relying on healthcare. There's no way they make any major changes .... despite the rhetoric.

To me, this looks like another expensive and pointless tinkering exercise.

MaxwellBygraves

CiB wrote:

There doesn't seem much point anyway. Only lefties can be correct when it comes to all things NHS, and obviously the Tory party can't wait to get shut of it. It makes you wonder what they've been messing about at when they've been in power for roughly half of the 60 years that the NHS has existed for and we still have it. :roll:

Could it be because it's probably the single most popular issue with voters, now or in the past, and to touch it would be political suicide with voters? Which is why, as I've repeatedly tried to outline, this is a massive gamble for Cameron - he is risking his career on this.

I don't doubt that you yourself are in favour of the NHS - but to study real Conservative philosophy, rather than the ideas of people who vote Conservative, shows how the NHS isn't really compatible with their political beliefs. In the same way that if you asked a' normal' Labour voter whether they support the monarchy they would probably say yes (as most people are in favour of the monarchy), but proper Labour (not New Labour!) discourse would be against the idea of a monarchy. Successful politicians to win votes have to synthesize the ideas from philosophy into ideas which are palatable for the average voter. Cameron has done this with his bill, gambling that the electorate will buy it, I'm determined they won't.

CiB

MaxwellBygraves wrote:

...Which is why it is such a huge political gamble for the Tories and why I'm determined not to let it pay off.

? Pay off = work surely? We're getting there. It's not about whether this might actually be a good thing, or a good idea, it's about Mr Bygraves not letting a political gamble work. Fair enough; it's not as if you were hiding your antipathy to the Tories in the first place, but at least we now know your real agenda. Don't let the Tories be right, at any cost. Pffft.

bianchimoon

[/quote]
Only lefties can be correct when it comes to all things NHS, and obviously the Tory party can't wait to get shut of it. It makes you wonder what they've been messing about at when they've been in power for roughly half of the 60 years that the NHS has existed for and we still have it. :roll:[/quote]
The Conservative party voted against the NHS on it's first 3 readings back in the 40's, It's not their baby, and they'd like nothing better than to have 'New NHS' hey take your pick, make a fuss and try and save the NHS in the form we know it or do nothing and see what you think of 'New NHS' in 10 years time. Not disimilar to the way the dental service is going. Also, do you really want your local GP to be in charge of budgeting/sourcing/contracting/managing a GP commissioning cluster, don't you want a GP to have as much time as possible to spend with patients?

TheStone

MaxwellBygraves wrote:

You're right, and as I made clear in my original post, New Labour privatised non essential services in the NHS such as food and cleaning etc. as well as continuing the use of PFI schemes to build new hospitals which i was totally against . Yet neither New Labour or Thatch, bless her, went as far as this. Which is why it is such a huge political gamble for the Tories and why I'm determined not to let it pay off.

Aren't most GP surgeries now privatised?
They work on their own account, but get paid per patient/visit by the government.

I'm not supporting that, just not seeing what the difference is.

MaxwellBygraves

CiB wrote:

MaxwellBygraves wrote:

...Which is why it is such a huge political gamble for the Tories and why I'm determined not to let it pay off.

? Pay off = work surely? We're getting there. It's not about whether this might actually be a good thing, or a good idea, it's about Mr Bygraves not letting a political gamble work. Fair enough; it's not as if you were hiding your antipathy to the Tories in the first place, but at least we now know your real agenda. Don't let the Tories be right, at any cost. Pffft.

You've figured out I don't like the Tories, well done

Well done for ignoring my post though. Any political policy is in a sense a gamble. The electorate have to buy it for it to work. Which is why you never saw a Labour government attempt to remove the monarchy, even though it fits with real Labour discourse in many senses. It would be political suicide. Camerons usually a pretty shrewd operator, I'll give him that, but I think he's made the wrong decisions and slipped up. If I can't hold my democractically elected representatives to account, what can I do?!

TheStone

MaxwellBygraves wrote:

You've figured out I don't like the Tories, well done

Well done for ignoring my post though. Any political policy is in a sense a gamble. The electorate have to buy it for it to work. Which is why you never saw a Labour government attempt to remove the monarchy, even though it fits with real Labour discourse in many senses. It would be political suicide. Camerons usually a pretty shrewd operator, I'll give him that, but I think he's made the wrong decisions and slipped up. If I can't hold my democractically elected representatives to account, what can I do?!

I think you're giving all politicians too much credit.

The vast majority are just power hungry idiots who'd jump on whichever vehicle gets them where they want to go. They've all moved to the popularist centre ground, which is why we've ended up with this bizarre capitalist socialist hybrid, where everyone wins, no-one loses and everyone can have whatever they want whenever they want.
..... except the next generation.

MaxwellBygraves

TheStone wrote:

MaxwellBygraves wrote:

You've figured out I don't like the Tories, well done

Well done for ignoring my post though. Any political policy is in a sense a gamble. The electorate have to buy it for it to work. Which is why you never saw a Labour government attempt to remove the monarchy, even though it fits with real Labour discourse in many senses. It would be political suicide. Camerons usually a pretty shrewd operator, I'll give him that, but I think he's made the wrong decisions and slipped up. If I can't hold my democractically elected representatives to account, what can I do?!

I think you're giving all politicians too much credit.

The vast majority are just power hungry idiots who'd jump on whichever vehicle gets them where they want to go. They've all moved to the popularist centre ground, which is why we've ended up with this bizarre capitalist socialist hybrid, where everyone wins, no-one loses and everyone can have whatever they want whenever they want.
..... except the next generation.

Power hungry idiots, yes. But centrists? No.

Socialist? I wish

TheStone

MaxwellBygraves wrote:

Socialist? I wish

It's fairly close.

Free education to 18, health and security.
People moaned when we cut the rent available to 20k/year!
We're paying many mortgages indefinitely.
Welfare/tax credits, makes everyone with a few kids earning 0k-40k end up with much the same.
Higher tax rate 50% + 13% ENI + 1% NI .... plus 20% VAT, duties and council tax.

MaxwellBygraves

TheStone wrote:

MaxwellBygraves wrote:

Socialist? I wish

It's fairly close.

Free education to 18, health and security.
People moaned when we cut the rent available to 20k/year!
We're paying many mortgages indefinitely.
Welfare/tax credits, makes everyone with a few kids earning 0k-40k end up with much the same.
Higher tax rate 50% + 13% ENI + 1% NI .... plus 20% VAT, duties and council tax.

Those things aren't really socialist I'm afraid. Liberal, social democratic yes, but not socialist. Except perhaps the NHS.

daviesee

bagpusscp wrote:

JLM74 wrote:

MattC59 wrote:

I'm just going to watch for a while......................

Still laughing at this. Can you please post it on the NHS thread......

Consider it done

neiltb

Haven't read the whole thread so apologies if it jumps in the middle.

It's a very difficult scenario, health care. The costs are increasing dramatically for a number of reasons, some of it based upon the success of the service (keeping people alive, live people cost more to maintain than dead ones), the older folks then have new or longer chronic illnesses requiring expensive medications to keep them going longer, more population leads to more staff to look after them but at the same time we don't want to pay more.

We are at a precipice where something has to give and DC's probably doing the politician thing, trying to push off the decision until the problem belongs to someone else.

We can't keep throwing more and more money at the NHS, they have to improve, get leaner, better, but is letting private industry the best way? At least now the NHS will keep you alive as long as they can. private industry will keep you alive until your and your families money runs out.

MaxwellBygraves

neiltb wrote:

Haven't read the whole thread so apologies if it jumps in the middle.

It's a very difficult scenario, health care. The costs are increasing dramatically for a number of reasons, some of it based upon the success of the service (keeping people alive, live people cost more to maintain than dead ones), the older folks then have new or longer chronic illnesses requiring expensive medications to keep them going longer, more population leads to more staff to look after them but at the same time we don't want to pay more.

We are at a precipice where something has to give and DC's probably doing the politician thing, trying to push off the decision until the problem belongs to someone else.

We can't keep throwing more and more money at the NHS, they have to improve, get leaner, better, but is letting private industry the best way? At least now the NHS will keep you alive as long as they can. private industry will keep you alive until your and your families money runs out.

Actually I disagree. David Cameron is actually being quite radical for a politician - he's forcing through real changes which will fundamentally change the NHS forever. It's not the usual polticial pussyfooting. It's just not the real change it needs. Although I'm not against reform as such, many of the links I have provided show that the NHS is not the money blackhole David Cameron wants us to think it is.

I'm going to keep on hammering this point, Cameron has gambled that people won't care - prove him wrong.

MaxwellBygraves

daviesee wrote:

bagpusscp wrote:

JLM74 wrote:

MattC59 wrote:

I'm just going to watch for a while......................

Still laughing at this. Can you please post it on the NHS thread......

Consider it done

thanks hehe.