Powertap SL+ are rubbish

LikeUStoleIt

i'll chip in with my tale of powertap sl+ woe as well...

mine had to have a complete torque tube replacement just before xmas, and now the blimmin' thing has died again. it's been consistently wet here for the last month, and i suspect, like others, that water seeping in is the problem.

it's back at paligap now, so i'm just waiting on what they have to say.

hardware issues aside, i must say i've been hugely impressed with paligap- their service really is top class.

amaferanga

I had a recent dealing with Paligap over a Cycleops turbo that was outside warranty and it didn't cost me anything, but I doubt I'll get lucky again. If I do decide to get it fixed I just hope that the turn around time is short.

amaferanga

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

amaferanga wrote:

Just wondering if it's time to jump ship and try a Power2max.

For turbo workouts you'll just be replacing one problem with another (significant torque zero drift in the opening half hour of any session).

That's true, but I wonder if that's something that can be sorted out with a future firmware update?

I just wish there was an alternative to the PowerTap that works well and doesn't cost significantly more.

whojanicanackerov

The torque tube seems to have a magnet taped to it with black insulation tape.Maybe when this gets wet it becomes unstuck and magnet comes loose? causing the damage?

mclarent

amaferanga wrote:

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

amaferanga wrote:

Just wondering if it's time to jump ship and try a Power2max.

For turbo workouts you'll just be replacing one problem with another (significant torque zero drift in the opening half hour of any session).

That's true, but I wonder if that's something that can be sorted out with a future firmware update?

Whether it can or not, I don't fancy being a beta tester. Know what you mean about pricing though. I reckon an Elite+ training wheel is the way to go, too heavy to race with any pleasure (speaking from experience) but does the job, and mine's been bulletproof.

bigcgilmour

Just sending my Elite+ back for the 2nd time. Its also out of warranty and quote

"If the electronic internals of the hub are in need of replacement then this will be £425 as it all needs to be replaced with new parts."

This is ludicrous, I can almost get a new one for that!!! Not sure I'd recommend it to anyone - on the other hand a mate of mine has one and has never had any trouble whatsoever with it!!!

mclarent

That's pretty crap, how long you had it for? Mine's 2 years old and been hammered, all conditions.

Barbarossa

I got my SL+ SH in the spring. I've done about 3000km with it and a couple of CX races. No problems except for the bearings which I changed myself at a cost of about 8€ and 15 minutes of time. The only issue that I have at the moment is that I brake tracks are worn to the point of needing a new rim.

amaferanga

mclarent wrote:

.... Mine's 2 years old and been hammered, all conditions.

Like mine really. And until a few days ago I had nothing bad to say about it (the only 'problem' I'd had until this was with dodgy Boots own brand batteries that only lasted a few hours).

mclarent

amaferanga wrote:

(the only 'problem' I'd had until this was with dodgy Boots own brand batteries that only lasted a few hours).

Haha! +1!

amaferanga

I left the hub cover off and the battery compartment out last night and all day today and the hub has come alive again this evening. If it was a moisture problem then it's a mystery since I hadn't ridden outside with it for over a week when it stopped working (though the last outdoors ride I did was a wet one, but nothing exceptional). Not convinced it's fixed yet though.

Alex_Simmons/RST

amaferanga wrote:

I left the hub cover off and the battery compartment out last night and all day today and the hub has come alive again this evening. If it was a moisture problem then it's a mystery since I hadn't ridden outside with it for over a week when it stopped working (though the last outdoors ride I did was a wet one, but nothing exceptional). Not convinced it's fixed yet though.

Moisture inside the hub can be due to condensation occurring when the hub goes from warm to cold conditions. Leaving it open to dry out is the best best.

magliaceleste

Just chipping in with the other point of view. Got two SL+ wheels and both have been fine (one pair used during Winter). Only thing I've had to do is change batteries once.

mclarent

I reckon you can find unsatisfied customers of any power system, from SRM down. Just have to google it.

overthehill

whojanicanackerov wrote:

Just send Poligap a link to this thread and how customers are losing faith in their product and in them for the excessive repair fee`s after all when your paying £600+ for sommething you would naturally expect it to out live the warranty by a damn good few years.They can`t come with "oh it`s got water in it and that`s why it failed"
Because if that is what they are actually saying to customers Then they should advertise as follows.
POWERTAP HUBS PLEASE DO NOT RIDE IN RAIN AND DODGE PUDDLES DO NOT GET WET"
Maybe they don`t because sales would dwind

Isn't that a bit like having a go at the ticket collector because the train is late :?: Paligap are only an authorised service centre for Saris, they don't have anything to do with product deslgn or retail prices.

I've got 3 Powertap wheels myself - a legacy one (with the yellow cover), a wired Pro and an SL built into a Cosmic Carbone. They are all quite a few years old and I can't say I have any major issues really. The legacy one can't be serviced any more as the relevant bits are no longer available (which I think is a bit naughty, since these helped to buld the company up in the first place), though I did have the bearings changed by Paligap last year. I also had the Pro serviced. This is built into a n Open Pro and they decided to true it but then didn't dish it correctly (rubbed against one of the chainstays) so had to take it to a wheel builder to adjust. The SL has been totally trouble free. The one bugbear relates to the yellow head units losing their HR functionality on the wired unitys at least.

Overall though I've been quite satisfied with ownership.

whojanicanackerov

SO sorry to all offend i was just shocked at the prices to repair the Powertap

jimmurray

Only got my SL+ two months and has just gone back to get the bearings replaced. Guy I ride with, bearings have gone on his again after being replaced three months ago.

bigcgilmour

So its been confirmed I require another torque tube, 300+ quid. I can't believe this, if I needed to replace my tv every year I'd be well peeved. Not a happy bunny!!!

magliaceleste

Regarding bearings:

Send them back to get new bearings and my guess is that the service centre will simply fit the same kind of rubbish bearings.

It's so easy to replace bearings on the SL+ that it IMO seems almost crazy to send it away*

I've just replaced one set of my PT bearings and freehub with new hybrid ceramics (just because I could). I can honestly say I've never worked on an easier wheel. It's also very pretty easy to make sure that you caused any calibration problems by doing a "stomp test" before and afterwards. Not that you should cause any problems since you are not touching any of the electronic gubbins that measures the torque. Testing calibration procedure below:

http://www.cyclepowermeters.com/powerta ... k-76-c.asp

There is a youtube video showing you how to change the axle of Powertap SL, which gives enough of a clue. Obviously much better if you have a proper bearing presses/extractors available. The bearings are standard 6802 2RS and 6902 2RS (different combinations depending if you have a Campag or Shimano freehub).

* unless your PT is still under warranty in which case you should send it away as doing it yourself may invalidate your warranty.

amaferanga

magliaceleste wrote:

Regarding bearings:

Send them back to get new bearings and my guess is that the service centre will simply fit the same kind of rubbish bearings.

It's so easy to replace bearings on the SL+ that it IMO seems almost crazy to send it away*

I've just replaced one set of my PT bearings and freehub with new hybrid ceramics (just because I could). I can honestly say I've never worked on an easier wheel. It's also very pretty easy to make sure that you caused any calibration problems by doing a "stomp test" before and afterwards. Not that you should cause any problems since you are not touching any of the electronic gubbins that measures the torque. Testing calibration procedure below:

http://www.cyclepowermeters.com/powerta ... k-76-c.asp

There is a youtube video showing you how to change the axle of Powertap SL, which gives enough of a clue. Obviously much better if you have a proper bearing presses/extractors available. The bearings are standard 6802 2RS and 6902 2RS (different combinations depending if you have a Campag or Shimano freehub).

* unless your PT is still under warranty in which case you should send it away as doing it yourself may invalidate your warranty.

While it is an easy job, I'd urge cation. I did mine (Pro+) earlier in the week and it changed the zero offset. Previously the zero offset was around 515-520 (within spec), but post bearing change it's nearer 530 (out of spec). The good news is that it doesn't seem to have affected the power readings as these are consistent with speed and RPE on the turbo before and after bearing change. Also, while the NDS was pretty rough, the DS was fine and I didn't bother with the bearings in the freehub (since it's badly cut up by the cassette so I'll be changing it soon anyway). The NDS bearing change is literally a 5 minute job requiring only a mallet or hammer and bit of wood and in the future I'll probably only change the NDS.

magliaceleste

That's a fair point. I figured, give it a go and worse case then send it back to the service centre as my PTs are both out of warranty.

One other thing I should mention is that having the cranks even slightly off of level changes the tests results so you have to be careful when testing.

I've not seen where you can view the Zero Offset on a Garmin head unit (edit: Maybe it's because I have auto-zero on?).

I can't see how this figure matters in your example, as it is simply the zero point which is prone to move (hense the need for Autozero). What I am saying is, is your zero reading not the same simply because the temperature had changed since it was measured initially?

My understanding is that if the hub is not zeroed correctly you'll see watts when you are coasting.

amaferanga

magliaceleste wrote:

That's a fair point. I figured, give it a go and worse case then send it back to the service centre as my PTs are both out of warranty.

One other thing I should mention is that having the cranks even slightly off of level changes the tests results so you have to be careful when testing.

I've not seen where you can view the Zero Offset on a Garmin head unit (edit: Maybe it's because I have auto-zero on?).

I can't see how this figure matters in your example, as it is simply the zero point which is prone to move (hense the need for Autozero). What I am saying is, is your zero reading not the same simply because the temperature had changed since it was measured initially?

My understanding is that if the hub is not zeroed correctly you'll see watts when you are coasting.

The zero offset should, according to Saris, be in the range 512 +/- 12. If it's outside of this range then they consider it to be out of spec. If you then sent your hub off for a bearing change then they might recommend a new torque tube at £375! I think though that the important thing is the stability of the zero offset. It will change a bit due to temperature changes, which is why there's an autozero function, but provided it doesn't fluctuate wildly then it's probably ok. AIUI autozero only works when there's not too big a change though, which is why you should always manually zero at the start of a ride and if there have been BIG temperature changes during a ride.

You can't view the zero offset on Garmin's unless you have a fairly new hub with the latest firmware. For older hubs you need a LYC - I bought one recently just for this purpose.

magliaceleste

Thanks. OK, I remember seeing that on the LYC now. Annoyingly I flogged mine when I got an 800 and Garmin added the torque test thinking I wouldn't need it. Gah!

moonshine

can someone point me to the best place to but high end replacement bearings and confirm the bearing requirement for a PT SL+ with the 15mm axle?
I would quite like to get some replacements bearings in the shed before the ones on my PT die.

Cheers

Gerry

magliaceleste

got mine from here last week. Took about 5 days to get to me in the UK:

http://www.roulement-ceramique.fr/bicycle,us,2,1.cfm

These are hybrid bearings. I couldn't find full ceramics in the UK or even any hybrids from the various bearing suppliers. Even if they were listed they didnt actually have them. The difference to decent steel bearings is probably negliable but it seems hard to also find any ABEC3 steel bearings from a reputable supplier such as FAG or SKS.

The bearings you'll need for the axle for an SL+ will be 1x 6802 2RS (aka 61802 2rs) and 1x 6902 2rs (aka 61902 2rs). The freehub for Campagnolo requires 2 x 6802 2rs. The Shimano freehub is different, i'd have to check.

moonshine

cheers for that.... ill look into these.
Gerry

moonshine

here too...
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/cgi-bin/gfo ... 357#264435
with link to ceramic bearings..http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/Kit8577
.. am i correct in thinking ABEC7 are highet quality than abec5? Ah, wikipedia is my friend!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABEC_scale -
The ABEC scale is an industry accepted standard for the tolerances of a ball bearing. It was developed by the Annular Bearing Engineering Committee (ABEC) of the American Bearing Manufacturers Association (ABMA). There are five classes from largest to smallest tolerances: 1, 3, 5, 7, and 9. The higher ABEC classes provide better precision, efficiency,[citation needed] and greater speed capabilities, but do not necessarily make the components spin faster.[1] The ABEC rating does not specify many other critical factors, such as smoothness of the rolling contact surfaces, ball precision or quality/type of steel used.
The bearing material is not specified in the ABEC grades. Bearings not conforming to at least ABEC 1 can not be classified as precision bearings as their tolerances are too loose.
The scale is designed to allow a user to make an informed decision about the type of bearing they are purchasing. High rated bearings are intended for precision applications like aircraft instruments or surgical equipment. Lower grades are intended for the vast majority of applications such as vehicles, mechanical hobbies, skates, skateboards, fishing reels and industrial machinery. High ABEC rated bearings allow optimal performance of critical applications requiring very high RPM and smooth operation.

People find that abec 5 bearings are actually faster than abec 7

Gerry

amaferanga

For a Shimano freehub you'll need: One of these and Three of these

If you only do the NDS bearing then you'll only need the first one (6802). I bought mine form this store and would recommend them. Even the stainless ones I bought are (apparently) much better quality than the original PowerTap ones. No point in spending much more on ceramics.

jimmurray

Well I sent my SL+ and wheel back over three weeks ago and still waiting, ridiculous!
Regarding the bearings, when I reported the fault I was told that the original bearings they fit are in fact crap but that they fit better quality ones when returned due to failure. Whether this is nonsense or not I don't know but i'm expecting, that if I ever do get it back, it will only be a matter of time before it goes again.

bahzob

OP Snap. I posted this a while back with my vies http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=40011&t=12800576