Braking from the hoods

Gallywomack

kelsen wrote:

How much travel is there on the levers before the brake pads bite? This might sound counterintuitive, but I find if your brakes are adjusted so there is a bit more travel, it gives better leverage when braking from the hoods. The other factor of course is getting better brake pads.

Cheers, yeah I shall try that and see if it helps.

JamesFree

phy2sll2 wrote:

Swissstop greens are the way to go.

+1 I can easily send myself over the bars or lock wheels without too much bother from the hoods!

jimmcdonnell

I have nothing to add to this thread, but thought that as 'braking' was spelled correctly (one-in-a-million on these forums!) then it deserved a read.

And only 1 post with the 'breaking' spelling! Lovely. It's a tough life being a pedant.

rolf_f

Here we go! I'll not go into the details of the test but I let the bikes roll up to speed from standstill not having easily transferable GPS computers at the time. Maybe I should re-do it as now I can ensure the speeds match.



I found it quite interesting - the Look is the only modern road bike. The Raleigh and Dawes have traditional drop brakes, the Peugeot is from 1990 and has high pivoted aero brakes and the Look Campagnolo Centaur 10 speed.

Interestingly, even the ancient rock hard brake blocks and steel rims of the Raleigh stopped it from the drops quicker than the Look stopped on the hoods.

I'm equally comfortable braking from drops or hoods - so I do think that the evidence is clear that the drops give better braking. The obvious exception is if you struggle to reach them but that suggests wrong setup or less than optimum choice of equipment.

veronese68

mudcow007 wrote:

its all about leverage init?

the fulcrum is the brake lever pivot point so the closest you are to the fulcrum the less force is exerted on the lever, lower on the lever (drops)...in the words of Jeremy Clarkson "POWER!!!!"

I think leverage is part of it. Braking in the drops the lever is longer. I think it's also that in the drops you are just squeezing in a very natural direction and can transfer a lot of power to the lever. From the hoods the movement of your fingers on the brake is a bit odd and unnatural. By having a bit of cable slack, or using shims, the lever is further back so you can apply more force to the lever because your fingers get closer to the natural squeezing action.
That made sense in my head, I hope it reads that way.

Headhuunter

Rolf F wrote:

Here we go! I'll not go into the details of the test but I let the bikes roll up to speed from standstill not having easily transferable GPS computers at the time. Maybe I should re-do it as now I can ensure the speeds match.



I found it quite interesting - the Look is the only modern road bike. The Raleigh and Dawes have traditional drop brakes, the Peugeot is from 1990 and has high pivoted aero brakes and the Look Campagnolo Centaur 10 speed.

Interestingly, even the ancient rock hard brake blocks and steel rims of the Raleigh stopped it from the drops quicker than the Look stopped on the hoods.

I'm equally comfortable braking from drops or hoods - so I do think that the evidence is clear that the drops give better braking. The obvious exception is if you struggle to reach them but that suggests wrong setup or less than optimum choice of equipment.

When I feel that I will need to brake/return to the hoods, I have generally slowed down quite significantly anyway so my braking distance is probably not so bad...

rick_chasey

You certainly had slowed down when we went down that steep road with the warning sign. I however needed the leverage from the drops, having bombed down the hill..

rolf_f

Rick Chasey wrote:

You certainly had slowed down when we went down that steep road with the warning sign. I however needed the leverage from the drops, having bombed down the hill..

Translation

what RIck Chasey really means wrote:

You are a big girly blouse who rides a pink Mixte with a basket on the front. I, on the other hand, am dripping with the power awesome.....

rick_chasey

Rolf F wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

You certainly had slowed down when we went down that steep road with the warning sign. I however needed the leverage from the drops, having bombed down the hill..

Translation

what RIck Chasey really means wrote:

You are a big girly blouse who rides a pink Mixte with a basket on the front. I, on the other hand, am dripping with the power awesome.....

Yeah, apart from the fact I had a 'lil brown moment.

HH's no slouch downhill and he seemed a bit surprised at the vigour at which I attacked the downhill.

(There was a t junction at the bottom of the steepest part, very poor roads, and we had to turn sharp right.)

Gallywomack

Headhuunter wrote:

When I feel that I will need to brake/return to the hoods, I have generally slowed down quite significantly anyway so my braking distance is probably not so bad...

Same here, but there will come a time when a car slips under my finely-honed SMIDSY radar and pulls out while I'm barrelling along at some insane speed (like, at least 15mph :shock: ). At such a time, if I'm on the hoods I may be in trouble. Still, when your number's up, your number's up I suppose... *adopts thousand-yard stare*

Aerozine50

When I first read this thread entry I thought it was a case of "Cycling to get out of the Ghetto", (Snigger)
Or would that be "Breaking from the hoods" ????....................

Anyway back to the serious question.....

Yep I can concur about the ancient machines needing a certain amount of anticipation.

My O'Brien 1962 needs you to be on the drops as soon as the tingling in your mind tells you something isn't right about the scenario on the road in front of you. You can brake from the hoods but it simply is about 1/4 as effective as a stiff grab from the drops. Also the ancient brakes are no where near as effective as the newer stuff as yes the pads are modern but the rest of the assemblies are original spec.

As for modern systems, well I can't comment - don't have a modern road bike.

SimonAH

Generally speaking when on the hoods you are applying pressure to the levers much closer to the fulcrum point than when in the drops - ergo less leverage - ergo less clamping force at the rims - ergo not as poweful in braking. You can acheive some adjustment by the positioning of the brifters on the curve of the bar (or by tilting the bars in the clamp) as pulling the hoods back to point more vertically will give more power to your grip when on the hoods - however IMO that looks weird and also makes it less efficient when you are in the drops as you will be only able to get fingertips on the lever (Topaxi).

I would say that unless you are a mostly hoods rider then you should have the levers in the optimum position for the drops - 'cos that's where you'll be when you are hammering along at 25mph and potentially really need to stop in a hurry.

What you need to do is immediately put in some decent pads - this will make by far the most difference (just make sure you bed them in by dragging them a bit when new). If that's still not enough then go and spend a few quid on a better front caliper (don't sweat the rear one). A DuraAce will set you back around £70 new and applies braking force like a well modulated Cathedral thrown off the back of the bike on a chain.

The idea is to make your braking more than adequate from the least efficient braking position.

Given, however, the current belly and the newness of the roadbike experience (so the likelihood that not much time will be clocked in the drops for a little while) I would simply loosen your headclamp slightly and rotate your bars back by a couple of degrees - that and decent pads will make a huge difference.

Hope this helps!

Headhuunter

Rick Chasey wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

You certainly had slowed down when we went down that steep road with the warning sign. I however needed the leverage from the drops, having bombed down the hill..

Translation

what RIck Chasey really means wrote:

You are a big girly blouse who rides a pink Mixte with a basket on the front. I, on the other hand, am dripping with the power awesome.....

Yeah, apart from the fact I had a 'lil brown moment.

HH's no slouch downhill and he seemed a bit surprised at the vigour at which I attacked the downhill.

(There was a t junction at the bottom of the steepest part, very poor roads, and we had to turn sharp right.)

Yeah you're a bit of a loony on the downhills from what I remember, I err on the side of caution, I've been almost caught out before hammering it down hills which I don't know and suddenly finding a T junction or a sharp turn...

Gallywomack

SimonAH wrote:

Given, however, the current belly and the newness of the roadbike experience (so the likelihood that not much time will be clocked in the drops for a little while) I would simply loosen your headclamp slightly and rotate your bars back by a couple of degrees - that and decent pads will make a huge difference.

Hope this helps!

Cheers, that's probably sage advice, I'll have a play around with the bar angle. It may be that it can come up a bit and still be OK in the drops anyway (there's a not-very-good pic of the steed on the pics thread btw, if anyone wants to cast an appraising eye over my set-up).

SwissStop greens are about to be ordered. I've already given myself a bit more slack btw, and that seems to have helped a bit.

rick_chasey

Headhuunter wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

You certainly had slowed down when we went down that steep road with the warning sign. I however needed the leverage from the drops, having bombed down the hill..

Translation

what RIck Chasey really means wrote:

You are a big girly blouse who rides a pink Mixte with a basket on the front. I, on the other hand, am dripping with the power awesome.....

Yeah, apart from the fact I had a 'lil brown moment.

HH's no slouch downhill and he seemed a bit surprised at the vigour at which I attacked the downhill.

(There was a t junction at the bottom of the steepest part, very poor roads, and we had to turn sharp right.)

Yeah you're a bit of a loony on the downhills from what I remember, I err on the side of caution, I've been almost caught out before hammering it down hills which I don't know and suddenly finding a T junction or a sharp turn...

Had to make up time somehow - and it was unlikely to be when pedalling was involved!

gosport_commuter

Gallywomack wrote:

Cheers, that's probably sage advice, I'll have a play around with the bar angle. It may be that it can come up a bit and still be OK in the drops anyway (there's a not-very-good pic of the steed on the pics thread btw, if anyone wants to cast an appraising eye over my set-up).

Just had a look at your steed here:
viewtopic.php?f=40012&t=12536578&start=1040#p17331424

and have to say your bars look like they are tilted far too much forward! you could probably rotate them a good 15 degrees or so up. Having them at that angle suggests to me that just resting on the hoods your wrists must be bent at an odd angle - which of course will affect your braking ability, but also will make longer rides uncomfortable.

Try rotating the bars until the flat end part of the drops (the lowest bit of the bars) is roughly parallel (not in-line, just parallel) to your top tube, or maybe even slightly further, and give it another go.

Another tip for setting lever positions ON the bars is to take a straight edge (steel rule) and place it on the bottom of the flat bit on the drops, the bottom of the brake lever should be somewhat in-line.

Get those 2 things sorted, and you should then fine tune from there.

Hope this helps.

rick_chasey

Indeed.

Boonen's Robaix bike is set up like this:

Gallywomack

GC,

Thanks, that's a big help and I will make the suggested adjustments and see how things go. Would be good if it leads to a slightly more comfortable position, I've been reasonably OK on the hoods so far but had a bit of hand pain, which I just put down to getting used to a new bike.

gosport_commuter

The hand pain is almost certainly due to the oblique angle you have put your wrists at - Keep us updated on your progress.

sketchley

Was thinking about this on ride in this morning. Hope this makes some sense without pictures. If not I'll take some pictures tonight.

Normal position of my hand on the hood is with the thumb down the inside of the hood parallel to it so that to knob of the hood is rested in soft bit between thumb and forefinger. In this position the amount of pressure I can put on the brakes is limited as only the top two fingers can really apply any pressure and only then to the top of the lever.

Focusing just on the right hand for the moment. When I need to brake I rotate my hand anticlockwise (to the outside) so the thumb ends up at right angles to the hood, with the thumb now resting on the knob of the hood. In this position all four fingers to apply pressure to the brake lever and much further down, so I get much better braking.

What I noticed this morning was that I was doing this without thinking, and rolling my hand around the hood when I needed to brake harder. I did wonder if the initial position with the parallel thumb is wrong and I'm only doing that so the pad on my hand rests on the bars like it would on a flat bar.

Hope that made sense.

Also just looked at picture of your bike and would echo everything said above about positioning.

Gallywomack

Right, I've rotated the bars back a bit as per the below. In that position, my wrists seem pretty neutral when on the hoods and the drops feel fine. Braking from the hoods felt like it might be a bit easier but hard to tell just pootling around the basement at work. Might leave things there for the time being, I'd prefer not to have to move the levers themselves as it'll obviously be a bit of a faff. If discomfort or braking issues persist I'll try that next (after fitting new pads which I'm going to do anyway, of course).

NB thought I'd remembered all the photography rules but forgot the valve stems at 6 o'clock. D'oh!

sketchley

I have Genesis too and the standard Tekro pads were rubbish. I put these on http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/190583533840? ... 1439.l2649 and I'm very happy compared to the original pads big big improvement. These are cartridge pads so when these wear out an upgrade to something better like Swissstop Yellow will be straight forward.

rolf_f

Gallywomack wrote:

NB thought I'd remembered all the photography rules but forgot the valve stems at 6 o'clock. D'oh!

Never mind the valve stems - the crank arms - THE CRANK ARMSSSS!!!!!

Gallywomack

Rolf F wrote:

Gallywomack wrote:

NB thought I'd remembered all the photography rules but forgot the valve stems at 6 o'clock. D'oh!

Never mind the valve stems - the crank arms - THE CRANK ARMSSSS!!!!!

Hmm, the rules seem to say 30 degrees - I suppose I'm closer to 45, but surely the crank arm in line with the downtube creates a more aesthetically pleasing effect??

Some things I'll never understand, I suppose.

rjsterry

Sketchley wrote:

Was thinking about this on ride in this morning. Hope this makes some sense without pictures. If not I'll take some pictures tonight.

Normal position of my hand on the hood is with the thumb down the inside of the hood parallel to it so that to knob of the hood is rested in soft bit between thumb and forefinger. In this position the amount of pressure I can put on the brakes is limited as only the top two fingers can really apply any pressure and only then to the top of the lever.

Focusing just on the right hand for the moment. When I need to brake I rotate my hand anticlockwise (to the outside) so the thumb ends up at right angles to the hood, with the thumb now resting on the knob of the hood. In this position all four fingers to apply pressure to the brake lever and much further down, so I get much better braking.

What I noticed this morning was that I was doing this without thinking, and rolling my hand around the hood when I needed to brake harder. I did wonder if the initial position with the parallel thumb is wrong and I'm only doing that so the pad on my hand rests on the bars like it would on a flat bar.

Hope that made sense.

Also just looked at picture of your bike and would echo everything said above about positioning.

I do this too. Hands 'on top' of the hoods for relaxed riding, then rotate to 'hanging on thumbs' when filtering through heavy traffic.

rolf_f

Gallywomack wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Gallywomack wrote:

NB thought I'd remembered all the photography rules but forgot the valve stems at 6 o'clock. D'oh!

Never mind the valve stems - the crank arms - THE CRANK ARMSSSS!!!!!

Hmm, the rules seem to say 30 degrees - I suppose I'm closer to 45, but surely the crank arm in line with the downtube creates a more aesthetically pleasing effect??

Some things I'll never understand, I suppose.

Crank arms aligned with seat tube (drive side down) or, if you are a bit avant garde, with the chain stay (again, drive side down)!

And you'd get some stick for leaving the rear light on and a lot of stick for the wheel reflectors

Gallywomack

I make no apology for trying to be visible! (Although the front reflector was far too uncool and came off straight away, and on the audibility front, the bell will follow suit before too long I should think).

TBH, the fact that I'm 'running' a pair of BMX-style pedals is probably an instant FAIL in the purism stakes anyway... 8)

Wrath Rob

In an emergency you'll be able to excerpt a lot of force from the hoods. When a car pulled out in front of me I managed to apply enough force to endo the bike about 4 inches from the car. Unfortunately I wasn't prepared for this and went over the bars and smacked myself on the front wing. If you can endo the bike from the hoods, then you an apply more than enough power.

phy2sll2

Rolf F wrote:

Gallywomack wrote:

NB thought I'd remembered all the photography rules but forgot the valve stems at 6 o'clock. D'oh!

Crank arms aligned with seat tube (drive side down) or, if you are a bit avant garde, with the chain stay (again, drive side down)!

Yeah, sorry Peter - looks like I gave you a bad steer there! :oops:

Maybe the source I was quoting meant thirty degrees above the vertical position, drive side down.

rjsterry

Wrath Rob wrote:

In an emergency you'll be able to excerpt a lot of force from the hoods. When a car pulled out in front of me I managed to apply enough force to endo the bike about 4 inches from the car. Unfortunately I wasn't prepared for this and went over the bars and smacked myself on the front wing. If you can endo the bike from the hoods, then you an apply more than enough power.

Oh, I don't know. A lot of it is to do with weight distribution. My Giant is quite front-heavy and if I'm stood up on the pedals, filtering through stationary traffic, it is remarkably easy to lock the back wheel as the brakes are applied and the weight comes off it.