The Strike

TheStone

fast as fupp wrote:

ever tried phoning your gas or electric company? or sky or virgin? as far as im aware they are private sector companies and dealing with them is usually a nightmare!

I agree, but for those services, we at least have a choice of different companies. Unfortunately people seem to flock to those with the cheapest headline price and don't take into account customer services .... so we end up with no companies that offer good customer services.

I wonder what the pay/pension difference between those and the public sector are?

zippypablo

NWLondoner wrote:

I work in the private sector and recently had to take a significant pay CUT to save my job.

Also whenever i've had to have any dealings with people in the Public sector they on the whole are disinterested and don't really give a toss!! While I know you can't tar everyone with the same brush, how many people can honestly say that they always receive a great service from the public sector??


Therefore I am against the strikes and believe that they will end up with a worse deal because of it!!!

I hope you don't need an ambulance, doctor or the fire service anytime soon
All public sector as you well know.
If they are all crap then the strike will have zero effect.

LeicesterLad

zippypablo wrote:

NWLondoner wrote:

I work in the private sector and recently had to take a significant pay CUT to save my job.

Also whenever i've had to have any dealings with people in the Public sector they on the whole are disinterested and don't really give a toss!! While I know you can't tar everyone with the same brush, how many people can honestly say that they always receive a great service from the public sector??


Therefore I am against the strikes and believe that they will end up with a worse deal because of it!!!

I hope you don't need an ambulance, doctor or the fire service anytime soon
All public sector as you well know.
If they are all crap then the strike will have zero effect.

Watch his private sector mates trying to put his house fire out whilst NWLondoner refuses any form of help from the 'oh so lazy arsed' fire brigade.

EDIT: On second thoughts, probably best not to call the fire service, they will only rob his house like they rob the state. Bloody spongers.

rick_chasey

EKIMIKE wrote:

PeteMadoc wrote:

Rick, we don't need a hypothetical world for this, America has private hospitals paid for by insurance rather than tax.

Anyways I'll try to explain. Public services are essential . . . schools, hospitals, police, universities etc . They encourage a secure, stable and educated workforce. But they do not make ANY money. They cost a lot of money, but they are worth it!

How do we pay for schools, hospitals, police etc? Well you need private companies, manufactures, retailers and so on to make lots of money, then they can employ people who will pay income tax and the companies will pay corporation tax. These private companies are the ONLY thing that can pay for public services.

the last 15 years have seen the pubic sector grow and government dept grow to ridiculous levels. When times were good this all seemed ok. But imagine you had a massive wage increase (private sector growth) and instead of saving you decided to spend more and get into more debt, not just more debt but more debt than ever before, that's what the labour government decided to do.

So the financial sector pyramid scheme collapsed and the government piled more debt upon dept to bail it out and to stop the country getting completely fooked public sector workers will have to take a hit on their pensions to prevent the UK triple AAA rating being pulled and screwing us over even more.

I'm not even sure what the point I'm trying to make is anymore. , , , ,

Oh yeah, we're probably all screwed

So wrong, on so many levels.

Rick said it before: It's not a zero sum game! That's a fact, not an opinion.

Try this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero%E2%80%93sum_game

Quite.

Try looking up the components of GDP.

Ah what the hell, I'll give them to you.

GDP = private consumption + gross investment + government spending + (exports − imports)

Bingo

shouldbeinbed

NWLondoner wrote:

I work in the private sector and recently had to take a significant pay CUT to save my job.

Also whenever i've had to have any dealings with people in the Public sector they on the whole are disinterested and don't really give a toss!! While I know you can't tar everyone with the same brush, how many people can honestly say that they always receive a great service from the public sector??


Therefore I am against the strikes and believe that they will end up with a worse deal because of it!!!

likewise in the public sector but we still lost 30% of the staff - you go figure out how were going to deliver the same level of service cos we're b/ggred if we can, we work very hard over 24/7 and seeing/picking up the sort of nastiness that very few people even want to think about let alone deal with and for this sort of abusive nonsense - whoopeeeeee

define the public sector you are talking about - have you had firemen that turned up 2 days after the event dragging on a silk cut, saying, ok whats all the fuss then? as you sit in the smoking remains of your house. you've no doubt dialled 999 for an ambulance at 3am, left a message on an answerphone naturally cos the operators are away of a 5 hour lunch break and a boy scout with a first aid badge bowls up on his skateboard the next morning after his paper round - right????? Your house gets broken into, you tell the police you'll be at work from 9-5 so someone had better be working some antisocial hours to suit your convenience - you get told to p**s or someone turns up?????

I've outed myself as working for the police, in Manchester so fairly equivalent to London ie. large densely packed conurbation - every crime me and my lot get to deal with is turned around in 24 hours for serious acquisitive crimes and 72 for the less invasive to personal property , major incident cases are never shut and we can turn up killers/rapists/armed robbers etcdecades later , we keep the unsolved stuff on constant computer search so if new offenders do come to light for the first time after the event, we'll still pick up on them.

you and your ilk's pig ignorant sweeping generalisations that the entire poublic service is feckless lazy and couldn't give a toss is so far from the truth you cant see it with a telescope. you can't tar everyone with the same brush but you'll give it a bl00dy good go anyway.

as a force we get plenty of letters from people grateful for the sensitive/quick/caring/going out of their way/giving of their own time etc way that they are dealt with usually at some of the worst and most frightening times of their lives.

NPower got a £2 million pound fine recently for their dire public service (me included) was cheering that one. everyone complains about the automated phone systems and the difficulty of speaking to a person and where has face to face customer service gone? that's the private sector customer service - frustrating and automatic. Need to speak to me, you'll get through to a human operator and direct to me none of this press 1,4,32,34,6,8,27 & 45 options then get put through to a call centre somewhere.
I've dealt with some real pillocks and just the sort of person you fantasize all public servants are, but see them for what they are 1 off let downs. I have the good grace and basic common sense not even to try tarring that entire industry with the same brush because to do so would make me sound like a bigoted idiot.

MaxwellBygraves

Stanley/shouldbeinbed, well said!

Democracy, use it or lose it. Strike on 30th Nov.

daviesee

shouldbeinbed wrote:

you've no doubt dialled 999 for an ambulance at 3am, left a message on an answerphone naturally cos the operators are away of a 5 hour lunch break .

Careful now. That did actually happen. Although it wasn't quite a 5 hour lunch.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-h ... s-11673344

bearfraser

Not only are we getting no pay rise for god knows how long , more monies into the pension pot , less out , yah de yada. We have recently standardised the hours worked ,(and yes i appriciate that it was phased in) so a lot of us are doing more hours for the same pay and holidays . Is any wonder we are P*&^%$£ Off.

neiltb

daviesee wrote:

shouldbeinbed wrote:

you've no doubt dialled 999 for an ambulance at 3am, left a message on an answerphone naturally cos the operators are away of a 5 hour lunch break .

Careful now. That did actually happen. Although it wasn't quite a 5 hour lunch.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-h ... s-11673344

In the SAS (Scottish Ambulance Service) they have been trying to work this out for a while. You don't get paid when you are on your break, you start your break by calling in and then that's it, you go on a call (which they can) you don't get paid, you don't get your break back.

How would you like it if your boss said you get lunch from 12 to 1 but if I ask you have to work through it, then called you at 1155 every day to immediately do a job that takes 2hr?

forward_loop

MaxwellBygraves wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

-spider- wrote:

The Government have us where they want us. Here we are, bickering amongst ourselves about who should get what and why we should be in a race to the bottom. At the same time there are powerful forces in Westminster that are insisting that we need to cut the tax on high earners from its current 50%.

Are we mad or what?

That's the point I've been making. Why the hell do the working masses turn on each other in such a way?

Well said Frank.

This is oh soo true - in principle, not just in relation to the 50% tax, but avery back room deal this represents. Look at everyone - arguing about lunchbreaks, about how poor the (whole of the ) public sector was whenI worked for them, how I am expected to work 220 hours/week in the private sector and manage this without moaning or I get fired, etc etc etc etc.

Personally I see democracy slowly being eroded and government becoming increasingly marginalised, to the extent of criminal law manipulated to suit a government stance at any particular time. I just wonder what the next steps would be

I would also like to add, for no particular reason my dislike of the Daily Mail - for ably helping us down this path

Its a sad state to be in - and I can only see it getting worse.

neiltb

democracy is dead, when technocrats are installed to run countries with no votes but at the whims of the financial world, you know who is running the show.

daviesee

neiltb wrote:

In the SAS (Scottish Ambulance Service) they have been trying to work this out for a while. You don't get paid when you are on your break, you start your break by calling in and then that's it, you go on a call (which they can) you don't get paid, you don't get your break back.

How would you like it if your boss said you get lunch from 12 to 1 but if I ask you have to work through it, then called you at 1155 every day to immediately do a job that takes 2hr?

Happens on a regular basis.............

Edit:- I get a knock on the door at 3:00 AM because next door neighbour is having a heart attack, I do whatever I can do to help regardless of what I was doing previously and getting paid doesn't come into it. It has happened.

GiantMike

neiltb wrote:

democracy is dead, when technocrats are installed to run countries with no votes but at the whims of the financial world, you know who is running the show.

The technocrats are required when a populist democratic Govt has neither the will nor the competence to run its own economy.

However, your point about democracy is valid but only because the public is happy to be lied to. Consider the recent decline of our economy and the massive debt we have accrued. Not only did we all know it was going on, we re-elected the Govt that was doing it (Labour, 2005).

Democracy works when people know what they want and know when they're getting it. Deomcracy doesn't work when self-serving politicians do whatever they want to get/remain in power knowing that they will be gone before the truth emerges.

So, back to the strike. If people feel that they are being misrepresented or lied to they must speak up and have a voice. It's time for everybody to wake up to the realities and requirements of democracy; it goes a lot further than turning up to a polling booth every 4-5 years to put a cross in the box of another smarmy politician. It's about making decisions about the real issues that concern us all.

neiltb

daviesee wrote:

neiltb wrote:

In the SAS (Scottish Ambulance Service) they have been trying to work this out for a while. You don't get paid when you are on your break, you start your break by calling in and then that's it, you go on a call (which they can) you don't get paid, you don't get your break back.

How would you like it if your boss said you get lunch from 12 to 1 but if I ask you have to work through it, then called you at 1155 every day to immediately do a job that takes 2hr?

Happens on a regular basis.............

Edit:- I get a knock on the door at 3:00 AM because next door neighbour is having a heart attack, I do whatever I can do to help regardless of what I was doing previously and getting paid doesn't come into it. It has happened.

did you get to go back to bed?

I guess if you are an ambulance tech you shouldn't expect a break? they took a pay cut of .75hr per shift (8hr). there are still 3 shifts per day, but you get paid for 7.25hr.

EKIMIKE

GiantMike wrote:

The technocrats are required when a populist democratic Govt has neither the will notr the competence to run its own economy.

True, but who's interests are these technocrats acting in? The banks who have bought up the debts of the failing economies. The banks have agreed to do this, the technocrats have agreed to protect against default (at all costs to society). The debt 'assets' on the banks balance sheets are protected. Bingo. A few get rich at the cost of entire societies.

They're bastards. They know exactly what they're doing. I've said it before, the party politics is irrelevant. This is all about the neo-liberal/free market discourse which looms over and above part politics. You can be conservative, labour, liberal - the neo-liberal/free market family will welcome all-comers. That is if you have power (over people) and bring wealth making opportunities to the club.

The technocrats are intermediaries - yes men with little chance of success in mainstream populist politics, but fantastic bureaucrats. They're happy to hold the ship for those with career ambitions in politics who simply don't want to be the face of 'the bad times'. The golden boys of politics are scared to hold power right now because they know they will be vilified and their popularity will drop like a brick. The technocrat doesn't seek popularity. He will take his cheque for weathering the storm and when it passes, the golden boys will hail coming of the new prosperous era with themselves as the face of new hope.

So why did Cameron take power you ask? Frankly, either he didn't foresee the sh1t-storm he was walking into, or he hoped he could shovel the sh1t onto the lib dems and pray some of his flagship policies prevailed. No Big Society, No Boom in Manufacturing and Business. His career in politics is in tatters, tainted forever. Thankfully it's everything he and his 'chaps' deserve.

But we'd be fools to think this government is any different to those of Brown, Blair, Major or Thatcher. They have all served their neo-liberal/free market masters.

MaxwellBygraves

EKIMIKE wrote:

GiantMike wrote:

The technocrats are required when a populist democratic Govt has neither the will notr the competence to run its own economy.

True, but who's interests are these technocrats acting in? The banks who have bought up the debts of the failing economies. The banks have agreed to do this, the technocrats have agreed to protect against default (at all costs to society). The debt 'assets' on the banks balance sheets are protected. Bingo. A few get rich at the cost of entire societies.

They're bastards. They know exactly what they're doing. I've said it before, the party politics is irrelevant. This is all about the neo-liberal/free market discourse which looms over and above part politics. You can be conservative, labour, liberal - the neo-liberal/free market family will welcome all-comers. That is if you have power (over people) and bring wealth making opportunities to the club.

The technocrats are intermediaries - yes men with little chance of success in mainstream populist politics, but fantastic bureaucrats. They're happy to hold the ship for those with career ambitions in politics who simply don't want to be the face of 'the bad times'. The golden boys of politics are scared to hold power right now because they know they will be vilified and their popularity will drop like a brick. The technocrat doesn't seek popularity. He will take his cheque for weathering the storm and when it passes, the golden boys will hail coming of the new prosperous era with themselves as the face of new hope.

So why did Cameron take power you ask? Frankly, either he didn't foresee the sh1t-storm he was walking into, or he hoped he could shovel the sh1t onto the lib dems and pray some of his flagship policies prevailed. No Big Society, No Boom in Manufacturing and Business. His career in politics is in tatters, tainted forever. Thankfully it's everything he and his 'chaps' deserve.

But we'd be fools to think this government is any different to those of Brown, Blair, Major or Thatcher. They have all served their neo-liberal/free market masters.

Spot on.

As long as politicians are too happy to be the puppets of major corporations, this neoliberal world order will continue to put profit before people.

Socialism for the rich, capitalism for the poor.

GiantMike

MaxwellBygraves wrote:

As long as politicians are too happy to be the puppets of major corporations, this neoliberal world order will continue to put profit before people.

Socialism for the rich, capitalism for the poor.

Basically you're saying that people are self-interested. So what's the alternative then?

TheStone

Governments have become too large and have too much power.

They now decide which companies succeed and fail.
Via minimum wage and tax credits, they've decided what are incomes are.
They decide which banks to bailout and how much profit they can make.
They tell the banks who to lend to.
The rental and house purchase market is completely skewed via housing benefit, SMI and 400 different schemes
They tell the BoE when to print money to control their own lending costs.
etc .... etc .... etc

They shouldn't have these powers. If they didn't have these powers, there would be no lobbying. They should be taxing us in a fair manner and then spending money on services (and some redistribution) that people want and need.

Everything else is just control and distorting markets.

daviesee

neiltb wrote:

did you get to go back to bed?

Once the ambulance had left

I guess if you are an ambulance tech you shouldn't expect a break? they took a pay cut of .75hr per shift (8hr). there are still 3 shifts per day, but you get paid for 7.25hr.

I would have thought common sense would prevail. Take the call, then take a break.
Continuous call outs means that there is not enough manpower. I don't expect anyone to be over worked and expecially not when lives are at stake.
Anyway, my point was that you were alluding to a hypothetical extreme case that would "never" happen when in fact, it has.

GiantMike

TheStone wrote:

Governments have become too large and have too much power.

So where should the limits of Govt be set and by whom? Who should start this reform process? Should they be (self-interested) technocrats or (self-interested) politicians, elected under a reform mandate? Or maybe a cross-section of the general public, selected randomly to extoll the years of experience and determine the role and responsibilities of Govt.

Let's face it, self-interested individuals will always rise to the top and serve themselves. There is no (viable) alternative means of Govt anywhere else in the World. Almost everybody get's shafted, but not enough to make a big enough noise about it.

So, back to the strikes again, the Unions are an essential antidote to the outrageous power of Govt.

MaxwellBygraves

GiantMike wrote:

MaxwellBygraves wrote:

As long as politicians are too happy to be the puppets of major corporations, this neoliberal world order will continue to put profit before people.

Socialism for the rich, capitalism for the poor.

Basically you're saying that people are self-interested. So what's the alternative then?

I believe that democracy is the only system of government whereby any rules that the populous are subjected to can be called legitimate. However, the neoliberal, free market (as in, free market when it suits me) elite has emerged as the dominant ideology in politics since Reagan and Thatcher. Profit over people. Everything and everybody reduced to commodities and consumers. If you don't suscribe, you're a dirty commie etc. This means that trans-national corporations can effectively do what they want, which has massive effects on the lives of ordinary working people.

What we need is simply more democracy and more education. By more democracy, I mean open up the economy to democratic control. After all, it affects our lives, shouldn't we have a democratic say in how it works and affects people? We also need, at the very least, an improved electoral system. The current system actively excludes minorities who might actually want change. As Mike said, we're stuck with the 3 same parties all singing from the neo-liberal hymn sheet. The current system is set up to keep it like that.

People will tell you that people are too stupid to be involved in politics and to have a say over the economy - but then, when the system is set up to benefit the rich most, isn't that what you'd expect them to say?

ETA: This is why it's so important that, not only on Wednesday, but all of the time people should be able to express their dissatisfaction with policy etc. If we are passive and submit, that is exactly what those in power want us to do, so things can carry on how they have been. If you're unhappy, do something about it! Democracy, use it or lose it.

MaxwellBygraves

GiantMike wrote:

Let's face it, self-interested individuals will always rise to the top and serve themselves.

Only if people let them. Why do you think governments do so little to tackle voter apathy (which is steadily on the increase)? Because then they can do what they want without anyone questioning it.

TheStone

GiantMike wrote:

TheStone wrote:

Governments have become too large and have too much power.

So where should the limits of Govt be set and by whom? Who should start this reform process? Should they be (self-interested) technocrats or (self-interested) politicians, elected under a reform mandate? Or maybe a cross-section of the general public, selected randomly to extoll the years of experience and determine the role and responsibilities of Govt.

Let's face it, self-interested individuals will always rise to the top and serve themselves. There is no (viable) alternative means of Govt anywhere else in the World. Almost everybody get's shafted, but not enough to make a big enough noise about it.

So, back to the strikes again, the Unions are an essential antidote to the outrageous power of Govt.

I think you're right. Very difficult to change things.

I agree on the unions too. Unions and peoples right to strike are very important. I have no problem with the public sector strikes, just on this occasion I don't agree with what they're arguing for.

If we were running a surplus and had money saved for these pensions, then my opinion would be different. At the moment we're just adding liabilities to our children who won't be able to afford anywhere near what we as generation think we deserve ... but can't afford.

MaxwellBygraves

Good video here for anyone that is interested on how greed of bankers bought this countries economy to it's knees, and how politicians and the public have let them get away with it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhHi4SKMNvA

Mad Roadie

MaxwellBygraves wrote:

Good video here for anyone that is interested on how greed of bankers bought this countries economy to it's knees, and how politicians and the public have let them get away with it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhHi4SKMNvA

True - and we should be pi55ed off with them - but like the Strikers they too wrecked the economy, but the strikers want to wreck to recovery too, just so they can have a day off to do christmas shopping

ihazon303

Apologies if this has already been said. I got a bit bored of wading through all this.

My wife is a science teacher, and my parents were both science teachers. There is a real dearth of talent in the teaching profession, especially in the sciences (real subjects), and the way we both view the proposed changes to teaching is the removal of one significant perk of the job.

I work solidly in the private sector (pharmaceuticals) and I fully support her decision to strike, with that motivation. It would be lovely to tell them all to lump it because the world is struggling for cash, but the risk as we see it is that that recruitment into her thankless profession will be hampered down the line.

My wife could earn considerably more money doing a job like mine. I guarantee she would be better at it than I am. But I'd be very concerned about the teaching profession missing out on others like her because there aren't enough reasons not to take a comfortable job in industry.

TheStone

MaxwellBygraves wrote:

Good video here for anyone that is interested on how greed of bankers bought this countries economy to it's knees, and how politicians and the public have let them get away with it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhHi4SKMNvA

You can blame a lot of different sets of people. Personally I blame the bankers and the governments the most (not sure which order).

I get the feeling the governments have done a deal with the banks. "We give you $1tr and you take all the blame".

The banks should never have been bailed out in the way they were. Investors and counterparties should have taken large haircuts, but, with the exception of share holders, they were all given 100%.

This was a failure of socialism, trying to make up for a failure of capitalism. Now the mess gets worse.

MaxwellBygraves

Mad Roadie wrote:

MaxwellBygraves wrote:

Good video here for anyone that is interested on how greed of bankers bought this countries economy to it's knees, and how politicians and the public have let them get away with it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhHi4SKMNvA

True - and we should be pi55ed off with them - but like the Strikers they too wrecked the economy, but the strikers want to wreck to recovery too, just so they can have a day off to do christmas shopping

How the strikers have 'wrecked the economy' is really beyond me...please enlighten me.

MaxwellBygraves

TheStone wrote:

You can blame a lot of different sets of people. Personally I blame the bankers and the governments the most (not sure which order).

Good! Are you prepared to let them get away with it by making ordinary people pay big time for it?

finchy

Mad Roadie wrote:

but the strikers want to wreck to recovery too, just so they can have a day off to do christmas shopping

Is this a joke, are you trolling, or do you actually believe this?

FYI, when you go on strike you don't get paid. Also, why the hell would they want to wreck the recovery?