The Strike
Comments
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EKIMIKE wrote::shock: Pie chart no. 1!! It's like an economic death sentence for someone my age.
A big thanks to the generations that precede me. Well done, c**ts. Think i might sod off to northern europe so i can live a decent life.
My Civil Service Pension is never going to afford me a house. :x0 -
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EKIMIKE wrote:At this rate i'll be lucky to ever get a house.
Chin up, the coalition are to the rescue
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EKIMIKE wrote:At this rate i'll be lucky to ever get a house.
Thats what i mean, I'm 24. There is not a chance in hell, if this continues as is, that i will ever EVER be in a possition to buy a house. Ever.
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If the government weren't printing so much money, devaluing the currency, artificially keeping interest rates low and deliberately causing inflation .... house prices would be massively crashing right now.
The main division is not public vs private sector, but intergenerational. Everything is being done to protect one generation (who already have all the wealth) at the direct and indirect cost to the other generation.
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Rick Chasey wrote:EKIMIKE wrote:At this rate i'll be lucky to ever get a house.
Chin up, the coalition are to the rescue
Great :roll:
To be honest home-ownership isn't a priority for a 20 year old. I'm pretty confident that the market will have adjusted to a true reflection of the true market for housing by the time I might need a house. There's only so long they can fix it like this.0 -
LeicesterLad wrote:EKIMIKE wrote:At this rate i'll be lucky to ever get a house.
Thats what i mean, I'm 24. There is not a chance in hell, if this continues as is, that i will ever EVER be in a possition to buy a house. Ever.
How many public sector strikes have you worked through in the past six or seven years since you were 17?
Divide and rule.Mañana0 -
pb21 wrote:LeicesterLad wrote:EKIMIKE wrote:At this rate i'll be lucky to ever get a house.
Thats what i mean, I'm 24. There is not a chance in hell, if this continues as is, that i will ever EVER be in a possition to buy a house. Ever.
How many public sector strikes have you worked through in the past six or seven years since you were 17?
Divide and rule.
Since we turned civil service 6 years ago, members have been on strike 3 times previous for various reasons, whether these were public-sector wide or MOJ only, or even HMCTS only, i don't know. And ive worked there since i was 16. Either way, just to add, they have all had ZERO effect on anything.0 -
Frank the tank wrote:verylonglegs wrote:EKIMIKE wrote:See this:
viewtopic.php?f=30005&t=12813962
or how about the drugs companies who used victims of the Bhopal disaster to be their lab rats:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ccuHy0EM8U
What about the Bhopal disaster itself? What about the mining companies who let toxic bi-products leak into ecosystems affecting not only the environment but also people? What about the weapons industry accountable for millions of deaths worldwide?
Come on. The financial industry is bad but it's not alone. It's doesn't make their greed any less distasteful but by vilifying the banks alone we do a huge disservice to ourselves as victims of corporate interests.
I feel we are reaching the crux of the real debate here, our relationship with corporatism. Do you think you can persuade people to give up what the corporates have made available for the masses? It's everything, from the computers we use to post on here, our nice shiny new bike bits and apparel...all the way to the films we watch and nice shiny tv's we use to watch them on. Can you imagine extolling the evils of the large companies to the masses and then telling them the things they'd miss out on if they didn't exist? I don't think it's an argument you'd win in all honesty.
I don't despute multinational corporations provide a lot of goods and employment for a lot of people but, those people and consumers also provide them with massive profits which instead of paying the proper amount of tax on,they don't. So the peoples exchequer goes short to the tune of £billions; £billions which would help fill the defecit.
When will the penny drop with some, this is all so avoidable IF you truely believed in a fair and just society rather than the one we inhabit at the minute.
Frank, think this video sums up your sentiment well - worth a watch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOP2V_np2c0"That's it! You people have stood in my way long enough. I'm going to clown college! " - Homer0 -
So there have been three strikes, by you don't know who for sure, and presumably about what, and they have had zero effect on ?
If it wasn't for unions and striking you most likely wouldn't be in a position where not being in a position to buy a house is a bad thing!Mañana0 -
GiantMike wrote:pease wrote:I wont be striking. The charity I work for provides much need housing and support for people with a disability. Whilst I'm angry with funding cuts there's still hundreds of people who still need support today...
Pease
Do you work in the public sector with a pension paid for by the Govt? Are you a member ofone of the Unions that has held a ballot regarding strike action? You do realise that the strike is a Union-led protest about Public sector pension reforms?
Nope I don't, I apparently work in the third sector (we rely on government funding for our new build homes and support services). I understand peoples concerns and anger but the country as a whole is on course to self destruct.
Strangely I'm on a days leave tomorrow to attend a few appointments about my kids hopefully these wont be affected. ..Insert witty signature here0 -
pb21 wrote:So there have been three strikes, by you don't know who for sure, and presumably about what, and they have had zero effect on ?
If it wasn't for unions and striking you most likely wouldn't be in a position where not being in a position to buy a house is a bad thing!
:roll: I forgot you knew my circumstances better than me.0 -
pease wrote:GiantMike wrote:pease wrote:I wont be striking. The charity I work for provides much need housing and support for people with a disability. Whilst I'm angry with funding cuts there's still hundreds of people who still need support today...
Pease
Do you work in the public sector with a pension paid for by the Govt? Are you a member ofone of the Unions that has held a ballot regarding strike action? You do realise that the strike is a Union-led protest about Public sector pension reforms?
Nope I don't, I apparently work in the third sector (we rely on government funding for our new build homes and support services). I understand peoples concerns and anger but the country as a whole is on course to self destruct.
Strangely I'm on a days leave tomorrow to attend a few appointments about my kids hopefully these wont be affected. ..
Just sayin' but if you're not in a Union that's striking you can't strike. It's like a club.0 -
Interesting points raised. I personally think many of you could do with reading some Marx though. Despite the plethora of 'experts' in the media, papers and elsewhere, there hasn't been a SINGLE economist to explaing the workings of the capitalist system in the depth that Marx did. Everyday they scratch their balls and ask why this is happening, yet if they really wanted to know, the silly old goat with the big beard explained it a hundred years ago.
It doesn't matter which way the pie is sliced, the rich will stay rich and the rest of us get to argue about the crumbs - as you are demonstrating here: already divided amongst public and private, educated and not, hard working and lazy, etc. The divisions are in place which is why the rich find it so easy to rule.......WE ARE ALL MUGS.
So far the only post to come close was Ricky's.........0 -
LeicesterLad wrote:pb21 wrote:So there have been three strikes, by you don't know who for sure, and presumably about what, and they have had zero effect on ?
If it wasn't for unions and striking you most likely wouldn't be in a position where not being in a position to buy a house is a bad thing!
:roll: I forgot you knew my circumstances better than me.
:roll: You've just told us!Mañana0 -
MaxwellBygraves wrote:Frank the tank wrote:verylonglegs wrote:EKIMIKE wrote:See this:
viewtopic.php?f=30005&t=12813962
or how about the drugs companies who used victims of the Bhopal disaster to be their lab rats:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ccuHy0EM8U
What about the Bhopal disaster itself? What about the mining companies who let toxic bi-products leak into ecosystems affecting not only the environment but also people? What about the weapons industry accountable for millions of deaths worldwide?
Come on. The financial industry is bad but it's not alone. It's doesn't make their greed any less distasteful but by vilifying the banks alone we do a huge disservice to ourselves as victims of corporate interests.
I feel we are reaching the crux of the real debate here, our relationship with corporatism. Do you think you can persuade people to give up what the corporates have made available for the masses? It's everything, from the computers we use to post on here, our nice shiny new bike bits and apparel...all the way to the films we watch and nice shiny tv's we use to watch them on. Can you imagine extolling the evils of the large companies to the masses and then telling them the things they'd miss out on if they didn't exist? I don't think it's an argument you'd win in all honesty.
I don't despute multinational corporations provide a lot of goods and employment for a lot of people but, those people and consumers also provide them with massive profits which instead of paying the proper amount of tax on,they don't. So the peoples exchequer goes short to the tune of £billions; £billions which would help fill the defecit.
When will the penny drop with some, this is all so avoidable IF you truely believed in a fair and just society rather than the one we inhabit at the minute.
Frank, think this video sums up your sentiment well - worth a watch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOP2V_np2c0
Excellent viewing. It's preaching to the converted in my case as you appreciate. I do think some others on here could do with looking at that link though.Tail end Charlie
The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.0 -
where did this myth that public sector pensions are subsidised come from ? Surely it's 100% paid for by taxpayers, because that's how the public sector is financed. Which is how it should be.
The private sector could take on most public functions, but then the taxpayers would be paying for their pensions, almost definitely for a poorer service, in my (vast) experience
Well I know what I mean anyway
Off to Asda now, then out for a pizza, all of which will be paid by the taxpayer, me and the missus both being striking local authority workers. Then out on one one of my seven bikes, all paid for by the taxpayer, including one paid for and subsidised, through bike2work
Surely it's those in neither the public or private sectors, ie genuine scroungers that are the problem, they are just a drain to everyone's resources
Enjoy your day fellow strikers and nonstrikers0 -
wiffachip wrote:where did this myth that public sector pensions are subsidised come from ? Surely it's 100% paid for by taxpayers, because that's how the public sector is financed. Which is how it should be.
Well, they're subsidised because they pay for their pension out of their pay. That payment into their pension is subsidised by their employer (in this case, the state).
Rather like my pension is subsidised by my company. They'll match up to 3% of my salary if I put it into a pension.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:wiffachip wrote:where did this myth that public sector pensions are subsidised come from ? Surely it's 100% paid for by taxpayers, because that's how the public sector is financed. Which is how it should be.
Well, they're subsidised because they pay for their pension out of their pay. That payment into their pension is subsidised by their employer (in this case, the state).
Rather like my pension is subsidised by my company. They'll match up to 3% of my salary if I put it into a pension.
Correct, so it's not subsidised, it's 100% funded by the taxpayer, the 6% I put in comes from the taxpayer, the bit my employer contributes comes from the taxpayer. It's all from the taxpayer. That's not a subsidy.
Anyway, back from Asda, now off to subsidise Mario's pension, or at least the taxpayer who paid me is
Ciao0 -
wiffachip wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:wiffachip wrote:where did this myth that public sector pensions are subsidised come from ? Surely it's 100% paid for by taxpayers, because that's how the public sector is financed. Which is how it should be.
Well, they're subsidised because they pay for their pension out of their pay. That payment into their pension is subsidised by their employer (in this case, the state).
Rather like my pension is subsidised by my company. They'll match up to 3% of my salary if I put it into a pension.
Correct, so it's not subsidised, it's 100% funded by the taxpayer, the 6% I put in comes from the taxpayer, the bit my employer contributes comes from the taxpayer. It's all from the taxpayer. That's not a subsidy.
Anyway, back from Asda, now off to subsidise Mario's pension, or at least the taxpayer who paid me is
Ciao
Massive economic logic fail...
How many times have I said this - it's not zero sum!
You could follow the money ad infinium and it'd eventually pass through everyone's hands. That's pointless.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:wiffachip wrote:where did this myth that public sector pensions are subsidised come from ? Surely it's 100% paid for by taxpayers, because that's how the public sector is financed. Which is how it should be.
Well, they're subsidised because they pay for their pension out of their pay. That payment into their pension is subsidised by their employer (in this case, the state).
Rather like my pension is subsidised by my company. They'll match up to 3% of my salary if I put it into a pension.
Or if you continue the example, your company pays for all of your pension because they pay you your salary from which you pay your contirbution. And that pay comes from the company's income, probably including money from tax credits, unemployment benefits, the salaries of Public Sector workers and the employees of other companies. And the money you spend on your pension gets invested by the pension fund, maybe buying Govt bonds, and the Govt uses this money to pay for military personnel, who pay income tax spend their remaining money on beer which pays the pension of the brewery workers and managers. Some managers buy Audis and the Govt gets 20% VAT on this sale and the Audi garage gets a profit and an income for its dubious staff which they use to buy drugs and porn. The corner shop owner who sells the porn uses this income to buy chocolate to sell, which generates an income for Mars PLC and VAT on the sales to his customers. Mars uses this money as part of a major investment project to expand its Europen operation and the construction workers .... etc etc etc. The cycle of cash continues to infinity.0 -
I refer you all again to Marx.....money is not wealth!!0
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GiantMike wrote:The cycle of cash continues to infinity.
Unfortunately - it doesn't though - not to infinity- and not in the easy way that you infer.
In a simplistic way (its the only way I can manage it
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As the dis-parency increases between the rich and the poor increases (an inevitable consequence of capitalism which I am sure others can explain much better than me), less is consumed - which creates a barrier to the financial powerhouses which crave profit (manufacturing has already been streamlined out of the UK with the gov choosing to side with the financial institutions as bastions of "growth generation" :roll:
They (the financial powerhouses) look at how the system can overcome this barrier - lack of CASH/spend/consumerism to generate more profit for themselves.
The idea a few years ago - was to introduce credit to everyone. Everyone jumped at the opportunity - spent more than they could afford....and now the CASH has run out again......and the difference between the rich and poor even greater
So the capitalists (read the stalwarts of growth - deemed to be mainly the financial institutions by the gov) are looking at how they might detour this barrier.....and as far as I can see it they are running out of options so are printing CASH.
There may become a point at which capitalists can't surmount the barriers that they create - in which case people will need to look beyond party politics.0 -
Oooh, good point. I forgot about credit. And mortgages etc.
Oh, and there's bartering too. Forgot about that.
You know what, I think it could all get quite confusing to work out where my money comes from and where it all goes.0 -
Having spent roughly the first half of my career in local government and the remainder in the private sector I have no sympathy. On pensions, I started a local government pension at 16 and the rate of payments then was about 5% from memory. After 8 years I left local government on a salary of £17k and have just had my annual statement which will give me a pension of well over £2k a year. By contrast I have made more than double the amount of contributions into a private pension fund over the last 10 years and have just checked what annuity I could get with my current pot. I would get £1.5k per year and that is without a lump sum or payments being made to my wife after my death. I would love to know where public sectors get invested if, as Union leaders claim, the scheme is in credit! My mum and dad have both recently retired with my dad having paid 50 years pension into a scheme through a private sector Union and my mum was a nursing assistant with 15 years NHS / previous local government scheme. On retirement my mum's pay was marginally higher and yet her pension is as good as my dad's despite the huge discrepancy in the amount of time they paid into their schemes.
On other issues I think it is a myth that public sector pay is low by comparison to private sector as a general rule although there are some areas where it does occur. For example, the company my wife works for pays a high rate to care workers by public sector standards and yet it is still lower than the Council equivalents. In my own line of work I earn slightly more than my public sector equivalent but I get at least 3 days a year less annual leave and in local government I would get flexi days for the extra time I work over my standard week (and would be paid for overtime). As a company we had to take a 10% pay cut in 2009 and have had a pay freeze since then as well as losing other benefits such as pension contributions and private fuel allowance (I know these seem like perks but they are part of what we signed up for when accepting the job in the same way that pensions are in the public sector). It has been painful and will continue to be for the forseeable future but it is preferable to the alternative which would have been more redundancies and possibly even the company going bust. Sometimes we just have to accept that there is insufficient money available to provide the pay and conditions we would like and I don't understand why the public sector feel they should be a special case.0 -
Pross wrote:Having spent roughly the first half of my career in local government and the remainder in the private sector I have no sympathy. On pensions, I started a local government pension at 16 and the rate of payments then was about 5% from memory. After 8 years I left local government on a salary of £17k and have just had my annual statement which will give me a pension of well over £2k a year. By contrast I have made more than double the amount of contributions into a private pension fund over the last 10 years and have just checked what annuity I could get with my current pot. I would get £1.5k per year and that is without a lump sum or payments being made to my wife after my death. I would love to know where public sectors get invested if, as Union leaders claim, the scheme is in credit! My mum and dad have both recently retired with my dad having paid 50 years pension into a scheme through a private sector Union and my mum was a nursing assistant with 15 years NHS / previous local government scheme. On retirement my mum's pay was marginally higher and yet her pension is as good as my dad's despite the huge discrepancy in the amount of time they paid into their schemes.
How many times does this need to be said. It is not a race to the bottom. You are making the case for improving private sector pensions, not for attacking public sector pensions (in order to pay off the deficit, which is of course the fault of teachers, dinner ladies, firemen etc.)...
If you and your old man wanted to do something to improve the working and pension standards in the private sector, I would stand with you."That's it! You people have stood in my way long enough. I'm going to clown college! " - Homer0 -
MaxwellBygraves wrote:How many times does this need to be said. It is not a race to the bottom.
Couldn't agree more:
I don't get overtime; therefore nobody else should?
MPs get very good expenses and I don't; therefore they shouldn't?
I get 5 weeks holiday a year. Some people get 4; therefore I should only get 4?
The race to the bottom just makes everybody worse off. You have to look at the big picture.0 -
I don’t get any bonuses, despite how hard or how much profit I bring to my company, therefore no one else should, including bankers.Mañana0
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I'm not in a race to the bottom. I'm not comparing public sectors pensions to mine when I object to them. I just agree that their pensions in their current state are unsustainable, it's as simple as that really.0
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pb21 wrote:I don’t get any bonuses, despite how hard or how much profit I bring to my company, therefore no one else should, including bankers.
OR, would you be better motivated at work if your employer gave you a bonus based on what profit you brought to the company?
Let's say you could get half the pay you get now, and the other half as a bonus (based on your current output). That way, if you work harder/smarter/whatever you could earn more so you and the company benefits. Used properly, bonuses are one of the best ways to motivate employees and that's the reason a lot of companies and unions settle disputes with 'productivity bonuses'. Work harder, get more; win-win.0
