Help please - Mis sold a bike:(

ronny123

Hi. I bought a bike on ebay and it was delivered next day by courier.
I unpacked the bike and whilst assembling it I noticed a crack in the carbon frame. I informed the seller within an hour of receiving the bike and they denied any knowledge of the damage. Upon closer inspection of the ebay listing photos, the crack can clearly be seen on the bike, however, just looking at the photos and not the bike itself this mark can be mistaken for a surface mark, but the damage is obvious when looking at the bike in person.

Unfortunately I think I'm at the mercy of the individual who sold me the bike now. I initially paid by PayPal, but the seller refunded this and said he doesn't accept PayPal and that a bank transfer or deposit was the only method he would accept. I discussed with the seller and agreed to go with this.

Can anyone give me any advice on what action I should take to resolve this situation?

Thanks in advance.

benjboy

Contact ebay and start a dispute.Or find out where he lives and beat the crap out of the shite head.. :evil: :twisted:

ronny123

I'd love to pay him a visit and have a chat but he's over 200 miles away:(
Ebay aren't offering any help.

ooermissus

I guess you could try (or just threaten) small claims - it's fairly easy to do, but you may still have trouble getting him pay up if you win the case. Make sure you get copies of the ebay page, including the original photos.

Not paying by paypal was probably not the best idea, but I guess you don't need me to rub that in.

Bobbinogs

ronny123 wrote:

Ebay aren't offering any help.

Have you started the dispute process? It does take a little while, and you have to go through the steps that sre outlined, but it is effective most of the time.

When you say "aren't offering help", what exactly did they say?

wheelygood

Report to ebay as I thought it was compulsory to offer Paypal payment method. Maybe he's saying he's offering it but then as you said sending it back and then hassling for alternative payment methods. Sounds dodgy.

sloppyschleckonds

CAN YOU POST A PICTURE ON HERE OF THE CRACK?

ronny123

Bobbinogs wrote:

ronny123 wrote:

Ebay aren't offering any help.

Have you started the dispute process? It does take a little while, and you have to go through the steps that sre outlined, but it is effective most of the time.

When you say "aren't offering help", what exactly did they say?

As it didn't go through PayPal, they won't allow me to start a dispute:(

ronny123

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

CAN YOU POST A PICTURE ON HERE OF THE CRACK?

I'll try to. It's a 1 inch crack on one of the seatstays. This doesn't sound like much but it's certainly obvious that it's structural and not just a scratch.

giant_man

One of the pitfalls of buying a cheap bike on the bay, sorry to hear it mate .....

Monty Dog

The fact that he declined paypal and insisted on a bank transfer could indicate that the seller is a scammer - perhaps you could post the ebay listing?

ooermissus

giant mancp wrote:

One of the pitfalls of buying a cheap bike on the bay, sorry to hear it mate .....

If you don't use paypal.

STEFANOS4784

If ya get no joy from the seller though, don't despair completely. A call to a carbon repair company like the one linked below may be worth a shot

http://www.carboncyclerepairs.co.uk/index.html

Gazzaputt

Have his address? Threaten to take the bike back to him in person.

200 miles isn't far if you've been done over for a lot of money.

ronny123

The guy denies any knowledge of the damage but says he has made a claim against the courier company. He said he'll refund me if I send the bike back to him. However, I have screengrabs of his ebay ad which show the crack in the frame, including one of the rear mech which cuts off the cracked seatstay by mm's, so I'm sure he was very aware of it. He says he won't refund until I return the bike at my expense and wants me to bubble wrap the box he sent it in as the courier company might want to use it as evidence??

I want my money back asap as I'm both skint and bikeless now, but I don't trust this guy to not pull some further shenanigans once the bike is back with him.

danthegoat

I had a similar issue with a guitar start a dispute he has is responsible for the bike until it reaches your door. He is at fault even if the courier damaged it. Ebay will do something but you need to open a dispute!

STEFANOS4784

Don't just send it back and hope :shock: Reeks of a scamming c0ck to me. Prebook the train fair. Should be quite cheap and risk free-ish. Also post the ebay link so we can all cast our own judgment over the alledged crack.

ronny123

Here's a pic of the crack:
I'd rather not post ebay links yet as I'm still hoping the guy may cooperate. If it comes to making a small claim then I'll make as much noise as I possibly can as he sells bikes regularly on ebay.

rolf_f

What's his feedback rating?

turnerjohn

is the carbon actually damaged or is this just the lacquer ? looks like it could just be the lacquer and in this case easy repair....hopefully !

nochekmate

If he sells bikes regularly on ebay then threaten him with both negative feedback and possible small claims court action. Damming feedback will curtail his sales somewhat! I once sent a bike that did get damaged in transit. Buyer complained and accused me of selling him the bike with a damaged downtube. What did I do? Gave him a full refund in order to keep my 100% feedback which is always worth a few quid on sales prices.

Likelihood is that unless he has taken out additional insurance he will only be covered for £50 by courier company.

As for bank transfer - sounds fishy in this case but I have asked for bank transfer in the past rather than Paypal due to loss of fees which are extortionate on expensive sales.

Not just a lacquer mark for me - looks rather deep. Dont let it drop (the case against him and the bike perhaps!) Good luck

bobgfish

Deep or not. Would you trust it? As said above. His feedback is important and ebay sellers do';t like a damaged reputation.

RedJohn

Sure looks like a crack to me. I wouldn't ride it.

The seller is responsible for getting it to you safely, if you paid him/her for delivery (including if it was sold with delivery included). If he said local pickup only, and you arranged a courier, then it's your responsibility.

Assuming the former, he may or may not have taken out additional insurance with the courier, or have transit insurance as a standard policy anyway. His lookout one way or the other though.

If he's knowingly sold it with the crack - and that's not exactly a subtle easy-to-miss one - then he's mis-represented it. Can you post a pic off the ebay ad showing the crack?

So ... I think you shouldn't send it back yourself without getting the payment back. He should also be liable for the return costs.
Also, he hasn't shown himself to be trustworthy, so if he picks it up with a view to then refunding payment, make damn sure you get a receipt for its collection as soon as he or his courier picks it up. Don't let the bike go without one! You could even draw it up yourself in advance, then all they have to do is sign it.

Your recourse if he doesn't play ball ... small claims court, as suggested above. You could easily do this while you still have the bike. I've had to do this once before, a totally different situation though, but it was easy enough and the court staff help you to make sure you get it right. You might even find that he settles as soon as the court documents arrive and he sees that you're serious - chances are he's hoping that if he ignores you long enough you'll go away. As far as getting the money afterwards goes - yes, not always easy, but you can use a debt collection agency :evil: once the debt is established by the court.

The other thing you can do, if he's selling them for a living - even a sideline one - is take it up with trading standards (via your local authority, or his, or both), who will be able to lean on him quite forcefully.

Here's another thought: Double check the address you have for him is the real one - phone book, 192.com, companies house, etc.

And lastly ... I didn't know that Ebay wouldn't allow a dispute if you didn't use Paypal. They aren't getting any less greedy are they?

turnerjohn

could just bet superfical but yeh O.P is in the right and should get his money back !

I won a Look frame on eBay for my bro which he luckily went to pick up (and pay cash) but there was a massive crack under the BB...bro sent me a photo; it was huge...really can't see how the guy didnt see it...some people will try anything ! :shock:

RedJohn

The continuous line through the scrape from left to right is (almost) certainly a crack. You can see how the surface scrapes stop / change when they get to the line. If it was just a scrape, that line wouldn't be evident, and the scrapes wouldn't have such abrupt ends/disjoints in the middle.

At least, that's how it looks in the pic - to be certain, you'd have to have it inspected for real by an expert.
Whaddya mean, covering my ass?

markos1963

You say you can see the damage in his Ebay pics? Have you not heard of Caveat Emptor? You have the opportunity to ask him questions and you didn't take it. A small claims court might not take your side. Don't get me wrong I'm not having a go at you and the seller is clearly chancing his luck. Personally I would have pulled out of the sale when he refused PayPal as he clearly knows how to use the system and would have smelled a rat.

RedJohn

markos1963 wrote:

You say you can see the damage in his Ebay pics? Have you not heard of Caveat Emptor?

That's a good point. However, and especially if the seller is a business, the buyer has a right to expect that goods are fit for purpose.

From what I remember ... and this may be different doon sooth ... a private seller has to answer your questions honestly but doesn't have to volunteer information you don't ask for (which is why it's a good idea to ask open questions: "Does it have any faults or damage?" is better than "is that a crack in the seatstay 3.2cm above the dropout?"), but a business seller has to make you aware of all faults without being asked

Also, if the pics have been taken in such a way as to hide/reduce the crack, as the OP suggests, then that's definitely mis-representing.

ronny123

RedJohn wrote:

markos1963 wrote:

You say you can see the damage in his Ebay pics? Have you not heard of Caveat Emptor?

That's a good point. However, and especially if the seller is a business, the buyer has a right to expect that goods are fit for purpose.

From what I remember ... and this may be different doon sooth ... a private seller has to answer your questions honestly but doesn't have to volunteer information you don't ask for (which is why it's a good idea to ask open questions: "Does it have any faults or damage?" is better than "is that a crack in the seatstay 3.2cm above the dropout?"), but a business seller has to make you aware of all faults without being asked

Also, if the pics have been taken in such a way as to hide/reduce the crack, as the OP suggests, then that's definitely mis-representing.

I'm going to struggle to explain, but... In a couple of the ebay pics the crack is visible as a mark, but the pics don't show it close enough to identify it as anything more than a superficial scratch, but the mark is very clearly in the exact same location as the crack that I've photographed, there are several close ups in the ad but none taken of that part of the bike.

ronny123

Here's a cropped image of one of the ebay ad pics:

nochekmate

Well he's been a bit naughty with that pic as he could easily have done a close-up. At the same time even if that is the best resolution/pic that you could see on eBay then there would have been sufficient in the pic for me to ask a question about the 'mark' on the stay.

All of this does not excuse his responsibility as a seller. He's misrepresented the bike by not mentioning the damage and I would pursue him. I would imagine that when threatened with small claims court action, he would cough up.

Personally, if I knew his address, I would be paying him a visit - he would not like the fact that you knew where he lived.

markos1963

RedJohn wrote:

markos1963 wrote:

You say you can see the damage in his Ebay pics? Have you not heard of Caveat Emptor?

That's a good point. However, and especially if the seller is a business, the buyer has a right to expect that goods are fit for purpose.

From what I remember ... and this may be different doon sooth ... a private seller has to answer your questions honestly but doesn't have to volunteer information you don't ask for (which is why it's a good idea to ask open questions: "Does it have any faults or damage?" is better than "is that a crack in the seatstay 3.2cm above the dropout?"), but a business seller has to make you aware of all faults without being asked

Also, if the pics have been taken in such a way as to hide/reduce the crack, as the OP suggests, then that's definitely mis-representing.

Fit for purpose only applies to new goods, for secondhand 'as described' is the factor. If the seller is only a casual seller of bikes he has no official technical knowledge per say so he could argue in court that he thought the crack was just cosmetic. He could also argue that as he posted a pic on the listing all be it a small one he isn't a pro photographer and it was the buyers right to ask him specific questions.
I'm only saying this so the OP doesn't go rushing into court thinking he has an open and shut case. My approach would be to get the frame looked at by a CF repairer and get a quote for a repair(if it can be done) and respray. Give this to the seller and ask him to refund you that amount or refund the full cost of the bike. See how he takes this before any threat of legal action. BTW the seller has every right to receive the goods back before a refund, you wouldn't go back to a shop with a faulty item and expect them to give you a refund without the item.