Cyclists need to learn to give way

greg66_tri_v2.0

Sewinman wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

AIR ZOUND "f-word"

The above is all you need to know. He owns an Air Zound, thus he is a dick.

Damn. You beat me to this. It's precisely what I was going to say.

veronese68

FrankieH wrote:

Slowing down and signalling people to pull out into moving traffic is really dangerous especially when your on a bike and incapable of blocking the traffic behind you. Probably best if you never do it again

I was on a motorbike and slowed to let a colleague pull out from a side turn. Slowed in the middle of the lane and made a really obvious gesticulation with my head at him to pull out. The car behind mounted the kerb to get round me on the inside and clouted my elbow with his wing mirror.
Not surprisingly I caught the bloke up rather quickly and had a few choice words. My colleague was a few cars back and was ready to jump out of his car and lamp the bloke if things got any worse. So yes, slowing down can be dangerous.

DonDaddyD

Another thing I think people are forgetting. We are only on bicycles.

If I see a car emerging/moving out (not waiting) from a side road and have time to think about two possible outcomes:

1). I have time to brake and slow down/stop

2). Continue at my speed and either skim past his bumper or ram myself into the front of his car torpedo style.

Then I'll choose option 1 every single time.

First rule of commuting is safety. First rule of braking is anticipation.

Sure he, arguably, should have given way (that I think is debatable if the guy is fully committed to completing the move). As I said earlier we are only on bicycles, should I hit his car or should he hit me I may not die, I may not have altering injuries but it will effing hurt! If slowing from 20+mph to 17mph for a few seconds will help me avoid that...

Well you choose. It don't hurt to tap the brakes.

pdw

bails87 wrote:

It's like drivers who want to turn right out of side roads so they wait til the lane nearest them is clear, park themselves in that, blocking the road, and then have to sit there, blocking traffic while they wait for a gap in traffic in the lane they want to be in.

Unfortunately, it's often a choice between doing that and being stuck pretty much indefinitely. I used to live on a street with an exit to a busy road. You could wait a long time for a gap in the traffic on one side of the road, never mind a gap on both sides simultaneously.

I would normally wait for a big gap in the first lane of traffic and pull out. Once you're in that position, someone in the second lane of traffic will usually make room for you very quickly. It was rare that anyone in the first lane would have to slow down, because I'd usually pick a big enough gap. I used the same approach whether I was driving or cycling.

sketchley

DonDaddyD wrote:

Another thing I think people are forgetting. We are only on bicycles.

If I see a car emerging/moving out (not waiting) from a side road and have time to think about two possible outcomes:

1). I have time to brake and slow down/stop

2). Continue at my speed and either skim past his bumper or ram myself into the front of his car torpedo style.

Then I'll choose option 1 every single time.

First rule of commuting is safety. First rule of braking is anticipation.

Sure he, arguably, should have given way (that I think is debatable if the guy is fully committed to completing the move). As I said earlier we are only on bicycles, should I hit his car or should he hit me I may not die, I may not have altering injuries but it will effing hurt! If slowing from 20+mph to 17mph for a few seconds will help me avoid that...

Well you choose. It don't hurt to tap the brakes.

Agreed first rule is safety, which is why you should not have signalled, why the car should not of pulled out, and why the cyclist should not of swerved round the front. Your OP and thread title seamed to suggest you only think the cyclist was in the wrong.

sketchley

pdw wrote:

bails87 wrote:

It's like drivers who want to turn right out of side roads so they wait til the lane nearest them is clear, park themselves in that, blocking the road, and then have to sit there, blocking traffic while they wait for a gap in traffic in the lane they want to be in.

Unfortunately, it's often a choice between doing that and being stuck pretty much indefinitely. I used to live on a street with an exit to a busy road. You could wait a long time for a gap in the traffic on one side of the road, never mind a gap on both sides simultaneously.

I would normally wait for a big gap in the first lane of traffic and pull out. Once you're in that position, someone in the second lane of traffic will usually make room for you very quickly. It was rare that anyone in the first lane would have to slow down, because I'd usually pick a big enough gap. I used the same approach whether I was driving or cycling.

I have less issue with this as you have waited for gap in the first lane. This is very different from pulling out in front of cyclist in the first lane which is what happened in the OP.

Drysuitdiver

Tom4 wrote:

I see your point but technically the golf has to give way.

The fact that you waved the golf out was your choice not the guy behind you and perhaps the golf should have have the foresight to see the guy behind you before he pulled out.

Also why should a cyclist have to slow down when its their right of way? You wouldn't always expect a car to slow down for you to let you out of a junction. Yes its considerate to slow slightly to let a car out at a junction if you're a little way back but in my view it shouldn't just be expected.

:twisted:

no such thing as right of way. priority is the phrase you look for.

if you were a car and slowed down to let another car out but the car behind you didn't like it and overtook and hit the car pulling out how do you think that one would pan out. its the same here.

Wallace1492

It's clear that the cyclist has right of way.... The emerging car blocked the cycle lane. I think the car should have waited till it could clear the lane before emerging.

I see this too often that a car "flashes" another to emerge and does not realise that I am going along at a decent pace in the cycle/bus lane. However, I am usualy aware of what is happening and can take avoiding action.

DDD, you cannot decide that as you have stopped to allow the car out that everyone should. You must realise that although your awesomeness seemingly has no bounds, you are yet to be able to control the minds of mere mortals.

Maybe the cyclist simply wanted to "pummel nothing but the open air ahead"

bails87

I should add, of course, if someone has already pulled out into the lane you shouldn't think "He shouldn't have done that, I'm going to keep going" and just plough into the side of the car/bus/bike that's pulled out. But that doesn't mean that if you see someone at a junction you should stop to let them pull out.

DDD, seriously, don't signal to 'tell' people to pull out unless there's no-one behind you. in which case, they can wait for you to pass, so don't do it then either. It's dangerous.

DonDaddyD

OK I accept that I shouldn't have signaled I don't normally do. I wont be doing that again.

But seriously, I checked how far the guy was and was thinking (wrongly) that the car could make the turn (I could have) and the cyclist would surely slow down though judging the distance I didn't think he needed to. The driver checked behind me I saw him do it.

That the car was half way into the road, half way into completing the move (or to put in visual terms 3/4s across a bus lane so nothing could get past) as the cyclist reached the car and then proceeded to swerve around the vehicle beeping the Zound and complaining. It makes me think that even if he wasn't technically wrong (I think he was) he should and could have slowed down.

What bothers me is that at no point did he have any intention of slowing down even when faced with a massive VW Golf halfway across his lane halfway through performing a turn.

Just give way it doesn't hurt.

Wallace1492

You saw the driver looking, how do you know what he was looking at?

Ok, been the devil's advocate, it all depends on the distances, speeds, and other traffic factors as to whether it was safe or not.

Did the car not complete the move because there was queuing traffic? If so then he should not have pulled out abnd blocked the lane.

Was there plenty room to pull out and clear the lane? If so then again should not have pulled out as there was not sufficient time to carry out manouver safely (by that I mean forcing another road user to slow down and/or take avoiding action)

Was perhaps a mix of imcompetent driver and an agressive cyclist.

DonDaddyD

Wallace1492 wrote:

You saw the driver looking, how do you know what he was looking at?

Ok, been the devil's advocate, it all depends on the distances, speeds, and other traffic factors as to whether it was safe or not.

Did the car not complete the move because there was queuing traffic? If so then he should not have pulled out abnd blocked the lane.

Was there plenty room to pull out and clear the lane? If so then again should not have pulled out as there was not sufficient time to carry out manouver safely (by that I mean forcing another road user to slow down and/or take avoiding action)

Was perhaps a mix of imcompetent driver and an agressive cyclist.

I see your point.

If I see a car halfway across my lane, I'm slowing down.

MonkeyMonster

tbh, the title has it mostly. there are a number of cyclists out there who need to learn/realise that letting the car/van/lorry do it's manuever will assist the overall flow of traffic and to let them and not be a fecking prick.

veronese68

Regardless of everything else the other cyclist was acting like a complete tool. We should ride assertively, not agressively.

cee

regardless of the technicalities of this....D had right of way, but gifted it to the golf, the marin rider failed to see what was going on, or decided he could be technically in the right and was desperate to honk his airzound....

Other side.. D should not have signalled (come on....who hasn't done this whilst driving a car?), the golf should have made sure that D wasn't the only guy heading towards him.

people need to give a little....in fact, no....people just need to stop taking as much.

Ride hard

I'm in the minority by the looks of things, but I'm with DDD on this one.

Yes, I agree with Frankieh that it might have been a dangerous move, especially when DDD wasn't in a car, ergo could not stop the flow of traffic behind, but come on it only takes a bit of common sense and respect to other road users. Granted mr marin might have been in a rush for some reason unknown, but it was still dangerous and makes all cyclists look like twats. Put it this way, its the same impatient behaviour shown when a car comes from behind and cuts across to turn left causing me to pull on the brakes (this happened to me 2 nights ago on shooters hill) despite the fact I'm doing 25+ mph and more than keeping up with traffic ie not holding anyone up. When that happens I always think was that dumb move worth the 3 seconds it saved the driver? And I'm sure all of you on here who have been in the same situation would agree its not.

And for those people quoting from the Highway Code as to why a cyclist signalling a motorist/bike/whatever to filter into traffic is a no no, how many times do you see cars going at 30 max in a 30 zone? How many times do you see buses/cars/lorries/motorbikes/cyclists stationary on box junction?.....etc etc etc. Now, I'm not saying to throw the HC away as anarchy would then ensue, but I am saying that you need to use your own judgement within reason. DDD saw the traffic was backed up and assessed he would let the car out. His only crime is that he did not expect the unexpected ie mr marin on a mission not willing to slow down too.

On another note, what on God's green earth is an Air Zound?

Torvid

@ridehard

An Air Zound

bails87

Marin Rider wrote:

So there I was on my way to work, making good time, when I spotted a spindly legged roadie* up ahead.

He was crawling along** so the gap was closing pretty quickly. I was just about to pass him, near a side road, when he slowed down. "Damn", I thought, "I won't be getting that scalp" because I thought he was turning off. Next thing I know, a car has pulled out of the side road despite the two of us being yards away from the junction. I don't know how the driver didn't see us riding towards the junction. I managed to swerve out of the way, and gave him a blast of the airzound in case he hadn't realised what he'd done.

* :twisted:
** :twisted:

aripallaris

sorry but have to agreed that the driver is in the wrong. he/she does not have right of way pulling into moving traffic when its unsafe to do so. in this case it was unsafe as a cyclist was coming up ahead.

you have to remember that objects in your mirror will appear further than they actually are, so your judgement of his speed and distance would have been distorted somewhat. thats not to say your to blame, but nor is the cyclist.

he had right of way to continue. Also, he would have had no clear as to whether you let this other driver out. hel/she will be riding and judging based on instinct.

gtvlusso

I am with DDD on this one (like it matters....)

car already manouvering, safest and most sensible course of action is to slow down and assess.

Although the car does not have right of way, whats the point in getting upset about it when you clearly have space and time to adapt to the drivers course of action?!

I am sure that we have all been in the way of traffic before whilst driving (parking, turning) and we rely on other road users to allow us to continue the manouvre, even though we do not have right of way.

It is easier to give way and live, than enforce every road rule, be a pr1ck about it then get knocked off and complain.

I suspect the individual who used the airzound, just wanted a legit reason to use the airzound.....

Good vision and good response to oncoming situation on DDD's behalf.

I see no issue here - carry on!

bails87

From DDDs tale it sounded like the Golf was actually waiting, until DD waved him out.

I signal the Golf to emerge. The Golf driver to his credit acknowledges me and checks behind me before he fully commits to moving out

So a poor response to an oncoming situation (potential collision between traffic behind and Golf in front) IMO.

It should have been:-Is the Golf going to pull out in front of me?
Yes:- stop/slow down/move to avoid it
No:- Don't wave him out, just keep riding.

gtvlusso

Ah - I was under the impression that the car was already doing whatever and DDD facilitated during said manouvre.

bails87

gtvlusso wrote:

Ah - I was under the impression that the car was already doing whatever and DDD facilitated during said manouvre.

I don't know, the original post was a bit misleading. Perhaps deliberately, DDD you sly fox.

If someone's blocking the road then obviously it's stupid to just ride into them.

Also, we haven't addressed the point of a guy on a MTB with suspension who was going faster than DDD.....

gtvlusso

:-)

DonDaddyD

1). The Mountain bike guy wasn't going faster than me. At the time no cyclist on that road was. I had overtaken everyone doing about 25mph.

2). On that road after the third lights heading to Oval I slow and get prepared to stop as the road narrows, traffic thickens and the side roads are always in use.

3). As I approach the side road I see a VW Golf creep and peeping.

4). I check around notice the white van to my right has stopped creating a space for the car to move out and a gap ahead of the white van for the car to move into. I check my shoulder behind me. The Marin was some distance away.

5). Having checked, I gesture to the guy to move out. I'm giving way. (I accept that I shouldn't have done this).

6). The guy nods at me and leans forward and looks past me to what I believe is up the road to see if anything else is coming.

7). He begins to move out. He is slower than I would have been. (This ultimately save the Marin from an off).

8). He is 3/4 of the way across the width of a bus lane, at an angle because he is turning left. So pretty much has emerged from his road.

9). While still trying to complete his move so still moving, a cyclist (Marin) hurtles directly at him from my right and swerves around his bumper (the guy is still moving you can see him moving) the Marin beeps its Air Zound and complains.

Now IMO whether the guy should have emerged or not, what I don't understand (and I've had all day to think about this) is why the cyclist did not slow down until arriving at the guys bumper where he had to brake sharply and swerve. There was clearly 2 tons of car in front of him directly in his lane.

As I keep saying it would not have hurt to slow down and let the guy finish his move.

timmyflash

Too many words to read all of this, but what i have learnt is that i need an airzound.

HamishD

timmyflash wrote:

Too many words to read all of this, but what i have learnt is that i need an airzound.

Nooooo ! Don't do it. They are, as has been stated previously, used almost exclusively by twats.

If you have time to use an airzound you have, logically, the time to avoid the situation where you would use one and therefore you don'#t need to use it. Consequently the only excuse for using one is for acting like a bell-end who doesn't know how to ride.

You may, however, want to use one for creeping up on people and scaring the bejaysus out of them, in which case carry on.

RoadyForever

I give way when I cycle or drive. I don't mind easing off to let someone through or turn right (a little patience goes a long way). But do not expect me to use the brakes, I am not dumping fuel for anyone!

optimisticbiker

HamishD wrote:

timmyflash wrote:

Too many words to read all of this, but what i have learnt is that i need an airzound.

Nooooo ! Don't do it. They are, as has been stated previously, used almost exclusively by twats.

If you have time to use an airzound you have, logically, the time to avoid the situation where you would use one and therefore you don'#t need to use it. Consequently the only excuse for using one is for acting like a bell-end who doesn't know how to ride.

You may, however, want to use one for creeping up on people and scaring the bejaysus out of them, in which case carry on.

Sorry, disagree... AirZounds are perfect if you have to commute (as I used to but not now) anywhere where large crowds of tourists insist on crossing when the little red man says no... e.g. Oxford Street area... its the only thing that makes them stop... shouting has little effect and a bell is next to useless... an AirZound definately gets the desired result!

whyamihere

Devil's advocate:

Imagine a scenario from the Marin rider's point of view:

He sees a car waiting to emerge from a side-road, and another cyclist further up the road approaching the car. The cyclist does a shoulder check, possibly in anticipation of having to avoid the car driver, but the driver's stopped and appears observant. It seems clear that the car isn't going to pull out. A sound distracts you, and you do a shoulder check of your own to check it out.

As you turn back, you see the car suddenly start to pull out. Realising you've been caught out, you take the only evasive action available, and nip in front of the car. The cyclist ahead seems to have managed to slow down somewhat, so it looks like he won't be taken out by the maniac behind the wheel either.