Cyclists need to learn to give way

DonDaddyD

The lot of you! Yeah that's right I have absolutely had enough. The vast majority of cyclists on London roads (because I cannot speak for anywhere else) need to learn to give way when the quickest thing is to allow traffic to flow and keep moving.

I'm sick of this"I must keep going forward at all costs" attitude that you see at lights when cyclists are desperate to get to the ASL going as far as to demonstrate stupid levels of filtering. Or when approaching junctions/side roads with emerging cars when cyclists refuse to slow, give way and let the emerging car complete their move.

Todays tale:

Coming down Clapham road about 9.00pm today heading towards Oval train station. I approach Claylands road and see a Golf pulling out, I look around and there's guy on a Marin front suspension mountain bike is pretty far back, so far back he only needs to slow down to let the Golf go. I signal the Golf to emerge. The Golf driver to his credit acknowledges me and checks behind me before he fully commits to moving out....

AIR ZOUND "f-word"

It's the guy on the Marin swerving around the front of the Golf complaining "what the f*ck was that" because the guy attempted to move out.

If the cyclist had hit the Golf I would be making a clear statement to the police that the driver did nothing wrong. After, all I was ahead of the cyclist in question, managed to slow down from 20+mph (this is a road I sprint to 30+mph on and always slow down by the time I get to this side road), signal the Golf to move out and was still pedaling towards the driver at a decent speed. So why the cyclist behind me didn't have the foresight to slow down and work with traffic escapes me.

There is a time for offensive cycling and defensive cycling. What isn't necessary is to be needlessly aggressive.

JamesFree

You have to understand we have strava segments to beat and I would willingly pull out round a bus pulling out into oncoming traffic just to beat my best time from Clapham South to the Common

DonDaddyD

It happens when I'm driving as well.

I emerge from a side road attempting to join the main road. Cyclist and a car approaching me and I watch it happen. The car, ahead of the cyclist, slows down and signals for me to go.

I move out and I'm more than halfway in the road so fully committed. The cyclist either maintains his speed or speeds up slightly because what was once a space and time for me to move out is now filled with a cyclist intent on charging into me like a torpedo. In the end I wait for the cyclist to go around me and the car that let me go has now had to stop as I complete the move.

Just slow down.

Tom4

I see your point but technically the golf has to give way.

The fact that you waved the golf out was your choice not the guy behind you and perhaps the golf should of have the foresight to see the guy behind you before he pulled out.

Also why should a cyclist have to slow down when its their right of way? You wouldn't always expect a car to slow down for you to let you out of a junction. Yes its considerate to slow slightly to let a car out at a junction if you're a little way back but in my view it shouldn't just be expected.

:twisted:

DonDaddyD

JamesFree wrote:

You have to understand we have strava segments to beat and I would willingly pull out round a bus pulling out into oncoming traffic just to beat my best time from Clapham South to the Common

The first rule of commuting, racing or commuter racing (silly or otherwise) is be safe.

notsoblue

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Rich158

Totally with you on this one. A very similar niggle I have is cyclist pulling out to overtake a bus that is clearly indicating right to pull out into the traffic. I see it time and time again, stationary bus at a bus stop indicating right to pull away, traffic stops to let him out and the bus starts moving only for a cyclist who was a fair way back start to try and overtake the bus. The bus then has to stop holding up everything behind him, and then try and get past the cyclist who is now sat in the middle of the bus lane doing about 15mph. Why do this when it would have been just as easy to slot in behind the bus and keep the traffic moving with minimal disruption to your journey.

The one thing that seems to single out the majority of inconsiderate cyclists is they're all fecking nodders

CiB

Trouble is DD is that you're making a decision based on your parameters but that decision affects someone else who clearly doesn't share your parameters. Because in your view you may as well be slowing anyway that doesn't mean every other cyclist has to slow down at the same time, so in this instance I can't agree with your angst; if you and a car driver can come to an agreement that affects just the two parties go ahead. As soon as you start making unilateral decisions on a third party's behalf you're straying from the path of wisdom.

Sorry & all that, but you did ask.

sketchley

Golf driver in the wrong as legally has to give way. You signalling does not give him right of way. I get frustrated often on commute when a driver flashes another to turn right in front of them or pull out of a side road with no regard to the cyclists in the cycle lane who have right of way.

The fact that you looked and saw the other bike behind you before signalling means one of two things. Either you misjudged the speed of the bike and didn't think it would catch up before the golf pulled out or you assumed the rider would slow down when he saw what was going on, in both circumstance I think you were wrong to signal to driver to pull out and certainly the driver was wrong to pull out and should have given way to the other bike.

DonDaddyD

Tom4 wrote:

I see your point but technically the golf has to give way.

The fact that you waved the golf out was your choice not the guy behind you and perhaps the golf should have have the foresight to see the guy behind you before he pulled out.

Also why should a cyclist have to slow down when its their right of way? You wouldn't always expect a car to slow down for you to let you out of a junction. Yes its considerate to slow slightly to let a car out at a junction if you're a little way back but in my view it shouldn't just be expected.

:twisted:

Are the right or dead argument. :roll:

I checked the what was behind me before signalling the Golf. The driver nodded at me and checked himself to see what was behind me. I saw that. At the point the cyclist went around the Golf the driver was more than half way out about 3/4s across the width of a bus lane in actual fact. The cyclist could see me slow down and the car move out and chose not to slow down, which in and of itself is dangerous.

If a vehicle is fully committed (as in half way through) to making a maneuver then oncoming vehicles/cyclists/Peds should give way.

The cyclist could have and should have slowed down.

Torvid

DonDaddyD wrote:

The cyclist could have and should have slowed down.

I'm with DDD on this one if you where in a car would you have gone round the guy in front of you with someone pulling out of a side road? No so why do it on a bike, it just makes us all look like d1cks.

tailwindhome

DonDaddyD wrote:

I signal the Golf to emerge. The Golf driver to his credit acknowledges me and checks behind me before he fully commits to moving out....

AIR ZOUND "f-word"

It's the guy on the Marin swerving around the front of the Golf complaining "what the f*ck was that" because the guy attempted to move out.

If the cyclist had hit the Golf I would be making a clear statement to the police that the driver did nothing wrong..

You couldn't be more wrong here.

sketchley

Rich158 wrote:

Totally with you on this one. A very similar niggle I have is cyclist pulling out to overtake a bus that is clearly indicating right to pull out into the traffic. I see it time and time again, stationary bus at a bus stop indicating right to pull away, traffic stops to let him out and the bus starts moving only for a cyclist who was a fair way back start to try and overtake the bus. The bus then has to stop holding up everything behind him, and then try and get past the cyclist who is now sat in the middle of the bus lane doing about 15mph. Why do this when it would have been just as easy to slot in behind the bus and keep the traffic moving with minimal disruption to your journey.

The one thing that seems to single out the majority of inconsiderate cyclists is they're all fecking nodders

Different case with buses, Highway code says give way to buses if it safe to do so although this is not law just advice. The problem I have with this is bus driver who assume right of way and just pull out. Although I have to say this happens to me more in the car than it does on the bike, showing to me at least that bus drivers do look before pulling out. However best not get me started on bus drivers that deliberately block the cyclist from coming through on the CS7 forcing me to go round them.

sketchley

DonDaddyD wrote:

Tom4 wrote:

I see your point but technically the golf has to give way.

The fact that you waved the golf out was your choice not the guy behind you and perhaps the golf should have have the foresight to see the guy behind you before he pulled out.

Also why should a cyclist have to slow down when its their right of way? You wouldn't always expect a car to slow down for you to let you out of a junction. Yes its considerate to slow slightly to let a car out at a junction if you're a little way back but in my view it shouldn't just be expected.

:twisted:

Are the right or dead argument. :roll:

I checked the what was behind me before signalling the Golf. The driver nodded at me and checked himself to see what was behind me. I saw that. At the point the cyclist went around the Golf the driver was more than half way out about 3/4s across the width of a bus lane in actual fact. The cyclist could see me slow down and the car move out and chose not to slow down, which in and of itself is dangerous.

If a vehicle is fully committed (as in half way through) to making a maneuver then oncoming vehicles/cyclists/Peds should give way.

The cyclist could have and should have slowed down.

Have to disagree, the driver emerging from the side road must give way, even if only pulling out half way. The driver failed to judge the speed of the other cyclist and is therefore in the wrong. The driver should not of pulled out unless they could get 100% across the width of the bus lane before the cyclist arrived. Both of you misjudged the speed of the other cyclist.

dhope

Agree entirely that cyclists often should allow motorists to pull out for the good of mankind (and being considerate road users).

However - you didn't wave the Golf through. You indicated that you were prepared to let the Golf through. Golf then has to be aware of other road users too and shouldn't presume that you've spoken for all cyclists nearby.

DonDaddyD

CIB and Sketchley

No I totally get what your saying.

I just think if a car is halfway or more in completing a maneuver as your bike reaches it, then you should have been slowing down not riding straight into it.

Giving the sheer volume of cyclists in London, with the majority not giving way means that cars are left waiting at the side roads for an indefinite length of time (been there) because even though you could move out completely (but not complete the move) there is a bicycle (some distance back) hell bent on charging into you while all other vehicles are willing to slow down.

I thought the safest thing was to ride as though we are a part of traffic?

There have been numerous times when I have seen vehicles stranded, a quarter turn, in the main road and blocking traffic because they've been able to move out fully but not complete the move as cyclists have decided not to slow down or give way but instead ride straight across the front of them.

It's dangerous.

ooermissus

DonDaddyD wrote:

I signal the Golf to emerge. .

Isn't that equivalent to a driver flashing their lights at someone to say they're giving way? If so, the Highway Code wouldn't approve:

Only flash your headlights to let other road users know that you are there. Do not flash your headlights to convey any other message or intimidate other road users.

sketchley

The one time I might agree with you on this is a driver turning left into a side road from the same road as the cyclist even across a bus lane. If the car is indicating and it's safe to do so the cyclist should slow down and allow the turn. At the same time the car in question should not be overtaking cyclist then pushing in using this technique that is quite wrong as they should only overtake if there is enough room to then pull in front and make the turn.

bails87

There have been numerous times when I have seen vehicles stranded, a quarter turn, in the main road and blocking traffic because they've been able to move out fully but not complete the move as cyclists have decided not to slow down or give way but instead ride straight across the front of them.

So a car pulls out, in front of other vehicles, and then can't complete the manouver? Who's fault is that? The driver's. Don't pull out if you can't complete the manouver.

It's like drivers who want to turn right out of side roads so they wait til the lane nearest them is clear, park themselves in that, blocking the road, and then have to sit there, blocking traffic while they wait for a gap in traffic in the lane they want to be in.

I think I've only ever flashed my lights to let cars pull out three or four times in the 6 years I've been driving. It's dangerous. When I've been on the bike I've been approaching a left hand turn, a car has started to pass me, got level, then flashed for a car coming the other way to turn right. Just keep driving and let everyone else figure out what's going on, hitting the brakes to let others pull out when you know there are other people approaching doesn't strike me as a particularly sensible idea.

godders1

If there’s oncoming traffic a vehicle at a junction shouldn’t be “halfway or more in completing a manoeuvre”, they should be waiting until the road’s completely clear.

Of course if the line of sight down the main road is poor (e.g. it’s on a corner or bend in the road) then traffic on the main road should be slowing down in anticipation of the side road (and it might be sensible to let traffic out under those circumstances).

I totally agree that lots of people on the road should be more considerate and that just because something’s “allowed” by the law and HC that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s the correct/sensible/safe/considerate thing to do.

DonDaddyD

TailWindHome wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

I signal the Golf to emerge. The Golf driver to his credit acknowledges me and checks behind me before he fully commits to moving out....

AIR ZOUND "f-word"

It's the guy on the Marin swerving around the front of the Golf complaining "what the f*ck was that" because the guy attempted to move out.

If the cyclist had hit the Golf I would be making a clear statement to the police that the driver did nothing wrong..

You couldn't be more wrong here.

Really, if I'm in a car or on a motorbike/moped behind another car and see a car emerging from a side road. Do I go around the car in front maintaining my speed and hurtle myself towards the emerging car. OR do I slow down and flow with traffic.

MrChuck

bails87 wrote:

There have been numerous times when I have seen vehicles stranded, a quarter turn, in the main road and blocking traffic because they've been able to move out fully but not complete the move as cyclists have decided not to slow down or give way but instead ride straight across the front of them.

So a car pulls out, in front of other vehicles, and then can't complete the manouver? Who's fault is that? The driver's. Don't pull out if you can't complete the manouver.

It's like drivers who want to turn right out of side roads so they wait til the lane nearest them is clear, park themselves in that, blocking the road, and then have to sit there, blocking traffic while they wait for a gap in traffic in the lane they want to be in.

I think I've only ever flashed my lights to let cars pull out three or four times in the 6 years I've been driving. It's dangerous. When I've been on the bike I've been approaching a left hand turn, a car has started to pass me, got level, then flashed for a car coming the other way to turn right. Just keep driving and let everyone else figure out what's going on, hitting the brakes to let others pull out when you know there are other people approaching doesn't strike me as a particularly sensible idea.

I'm with bails on this.
Granted, the guy on the Marin in DDD's post should probably have backed off when the car had pulled out in front of him, and it's true that everybody would probably benefit if drivers and cyclists were a bit more relaxed about pushing forward all the time. But as I read it the car basically pulled out in front of a cyclist on DDD's say-so, which he shouldn't really have been giving.

HamishD

It's nice to be nice.

Agree 100% with DDD on this one . . .

rick_chasey

Bikes & motorised vehicles don't mix well.

HamishD

and don't get me started on Airzounds. :evil:

tailwindhome

DonDaddyD wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

I signal the Golf to emerge. The Golf driver to his credit acknowledges me and checks behind me before he fully commits to moving out....

AIR ZOUND "f-word"

It's the guy on the Marin swerving around the front of the Golf complaining "what the f*ck was that" because the guy attempted to move out.

If the cyclist had hit the Golf I would be making a clear statement to the police that the driver did nothing wrong..

You couldn't be more wrong here.

Really, if I'm in a car or on a motorbike/moped behind another car and see a car emerging from a side road. Do I go around the car in front maintaining my speed and hurtle myself towards the emerging car. OR do I slow down and flow with traffic.

Different question

You're saying the driver did no wrong.

The question should be "If I'm driving my car and emerge from a side road causing another vehicle to have to stop, slow down or change direction have I done anything wrong?"

The answer is yes.

Had the Golf driver been doing his driving test it would have been a fail.



EDIT

As for the cyclist I'm not sure how he can "Swerve round the front" and "Hurtle towards"

flimflam_machine

DonDaddyD wrote:

CIB and Sketchley

No I totally get what your saying.

I just think if a car is halfway or more in completing a maneuver as your bike reaches it, then you should have been slowing down not riding straight into it.

Giving the sheer volume of cyclists in London, with the majority not giving way means that cars are left waiting at the side roads for an indefinite length of time (been there) because even though you could move out completely (but not complete the move) there is a bicycle (some distance back) hell bent on charging into you while all other vehicles are willing to slow down.

I thought the safest thing was to ride as though we are a part of traffic?

I'm with you on the general point of keeping the traffic moving. If you can help somebody out at basically no cost to yourself then you should do so.

In situation though, I'm with Sketchley et al. If the situation was repeated without you there it would simply be a case of a motorist pulling out into the path of an oncoming cyclist i.e., the motorist completely in the wrong. If you and the Marin rider had been in cars then your stopping to wave the golf out would have been fine since he couldn't have passed you. But on bikes there's no way that you could effectively speak for him.

There have been numerous times when I have seen vehicles stranded, a quarter turn, in the main road and blocking traffic because they've been able to move out fully but not complete the move as cyclists have decided not to slow down or give way but instead ride straight across the front of them.

It's dangerous.

This really annoys me in London traffic. You always see cars turning right pulling out halfway across the road in order to force the traffic in the lane they want to join to make a gap or totally gridlock the road. Admittedly more people should make that gap in anticipation than actually do, but it still seriously gets my goat.

daviesee

One member of traffic decided to be courteous.
One member of traffic saw an opertunity and took it.
One member of traffic assumed everyone else would obey the highway code.

Who was in the wrong?

All three.

You shouldn't be courteous when it will impact on unknowing third parties.
You shouldn't pull out in front of on-coming traffic.
You shouldn't assume everyone else will act correctly.

Legal. Civil minded. Safe. Three very different entities.

frankieh

Slowing down and signalling people to pull out into moving traffic is really dangerous especially when your on a bike and incapable of blocking the traffic behind you. Probably best if you never do it again

veronese68

DDD should have clocked the Airzound in his shoulder check and realised the guy was obviously going to be confrontational so not let the Golf out.
Technically the guy in the Golf may well have been wrong. However, we live in a crowded city and if we all give each other a bit of space it makes life so much more pleasant for everyone. Live and let live.*

* This obviously doesn't apply to the ignorant twunt in a cheap piece of sh1t left hand drive Audi TT that nearly took me out last night by turning left at a roundabout from the right hand lane.

Sewinman

DonDaddyD wrote:

AIR ZOUND "f-word"

The above is all you need to know. He owns an Air Zound, thus he is a dick.