Rowing - Any help??

Mr_Steve

I never realised how much I actaully pull on the bars even when light pedalling until today when I has an annoying creak on the bike. It was my headset that was loose and was creaking everytime I pedalled

Anywho I also rejoined the gym and as its pretty boring other than spinning I thought I could give rowing ago,

Will this improve my cycling much?

Tom Dean

No

Why did you join the gym if it's so boring?

pilot_pete

I came from 'erging' on a Concept 2 to cycling. Although it will not improve your cycling per se, it will increase your aerobic fitness. I found this transferred to the bike very easily.

Main thing is to study correct technique and practice getting your form right to prevent injury and to get a powerful stroke. Check out the Concept 2 website for details. Also, don't just get on there and row like mad, follow a training plan which you can also get from their website. This will get you maximum gains in the time available. When you join the 'Sub 7' club, let us know

PP

springtide9

Pilot Pete wrote:

I came from 'erging' on a Concept 2 to cycling. Although it will not improve your cycling per se, it will increase your aerobic fitness. I found this transferred to the bike very easily.

Main thing is to study correct technique and practice getting your form right to prevent injury and to get a powerful stroke. Check out the Concept 2 website for details. Also, don't just get on there and row like mad, follow a training plan which you can also get from their website. This will get you maximum gains in the time available. When you join the 'Sub 7' club, let us know

PP

+1

I use the C2 for general aerobic fitness. Not directly related to cycling, but have always thought it gives a pretty good aerobic workout of your core. It is also useful for your 'rest' days etc and to keep things a little more interesting. Have done little rowing over the summer due to riding the bike, but cycling has definitively helped on the rower - which in my mind means it works the other way around.

There is a BikeRadar Challenge Series in progress for 2011 if you are looking for motivation. See : http://concept2.co.uk/challengeseries
(the BR is under the "Mini Leagues")

bearfraser

Proper rowing on a scull or four will seriosly build up just about every muscle you have and some , i dont think this can be achieved on a rowing machine.

PhilPub

bearfraser wrote:

Proper rowing on a scull or four will seriosly build up just about every muscle you have and some , i dont think this can be achieved on a rowing machine.

Having had a taster (but nothing more) of real rowing I can bet this is the case. The only problem I found was the time commitment. It's a bit all or nothing with rowing isn't it?

I'm interested in the IR challenge as I'll be using it to compliment cycling/running fitness once my hip calms down post-keyhole surgery. (My surgeon is a competitive indoor rower, so I won't be making any ill-informed decisions...) See if I can get my sub-7 time a little more sub-7. Get back down to a "Lightweight" again by losing my belly and I'll be laughing. 8)

weapons

I scull once a week on my day of active recovery and to work other muscle groups.

I used to row competitively, training 15+hours a week and although I do a similar amount on the bike I would say i felt at a much higher level of overall fitness when I rowed.

trickydisco

isn't there a few rowers that made the transition to cycling? Rebecca Romero was one of them (medals in each sport)

keyser__soze

Chris Hoy was a rower too.

Zoomer37

Unless you doing a headstand on the seat and pedalling with your arms, I reckon you'd be better off spending the time on your bike if your looking to improve your cycling.

tc345

Zoomer37 wrote:

Unless you doing a headstand on the seat and pedalling with your arms, I reckon you'd be better off spending the time on your bike if your looking to improve your cycling.

You misunderstand that rowing is all about leg strength and power and therefore pretty well transferable to cycling. As others have said i used to do 15+hrs rowing training and feel that it gives better aerobic fitness than 15+hrs cycling.

legin

try the llanelli scarlets rugby team concept rowing training.i love rowing and have got quite good at it.i find it improves my fitness and its a good over all body work out.
try rowing 500m under 1.50minutes 2 -3 minutes rest and see how many sets you can do its a killer or 5000m under 20 minutes.
theres lots of different types of training if you google it.
i may be attempting a british record next year i can do 500m in 1.26 if i can drop a few seconds i could set a new record for my age and weight category.
go for it

Zoomer37

tc345 wrote:

Zoomer37 wrote:

Unless you doing a headstand on the seat and pedalling with your arms, I reckon you'd be better off spending the time on your bike if your looking to improve your cycling.

You misunderstand that rowing is all about leg strength and power and therefore pretty well transferable to cycling. As others have said i used to do 15+hrs rowing training and feel that it gives better aerobic fitness than 15+hrs cycling.

Nope, completely understood thanks. 15 hrs of rowing! Wow. You should try Zoomba. Its also ace for aerobic fitness, cycling, darts etc

tc345

Zoomer37 wrote:

tc345 wrote:

Zoomer37 wrote:

Unless you doing a headstand on the seat and pedalling with your arms, I reckon you'd be better off spending the time on your bike if your looking to improve your cycling.

Nope, completely understood thanks. 15 hrs of rowing! Wow. You should try Zoomba. Its also ace for aerobic fitness, cycling, darts etc

Do you mind me asking what you're original post was trying to say then!?

Zoomer37

tc345 wrote:

Zoomer37 wrote:

tc345 wrote:

Zoomer37 wrote:

Unless you doing a headstand on the seat and pedalling with your arms, I reckon you'd be better off spending the time on your bike if your looking to improve your cycling.

Nope, completely understood thanks. 15 hrs of rowing! Wow. You should try Zoomba. Its also ace for aerobic fitness, cycling, darts etc

Do you mind me asking what you're original post was trying to say then!?

Quite simple. If the OP wants to improve his cycling then there is nothing better he can do with his time than cycling.

tc345

Quite simple. If the OP wants to improve his cycling then there nothing better he can do with his time than cycling.[/quote]

Fair enough. However rowing isn't going to be deleterious to cycling performance and it is another good way to maintain, or gain, fitness at the gym over winter.

Mr_Steve

According to my Garmin ive done 276:54:18 of cycling this year. I cant physically fit anymore in than that especially as the weather is now officially shit and going dark early.

I go to the gym cos spinning is a damn site easier than grovelling away on a horrible turbo trainer, just thought rowing would be of benefit bearing in mind how much pulling on the bars i was doing.

Anyway i seem to remember Magnus Backstedt saying rowing is helpful ill go with that and try and see if i can get to the 2500m in 10min mark

springtide9

Mr_Steve wrote:

According to my Garmin ive done 276:54:18 of cycling this year. I cant physically fit anymore in than that especially as the weather is now officially shoot and going dark early.

I go to the gym cos spinning is a damn site easier than grovelling away on a horrible turbo trainer, just thought rowing would be of benefit bearing in mind how much pulling on the bars i was doing.

Anyway i seem to remember Magnus Backstedt saying rowing is helpful ill go with that and try and see if i can get to the 2500m in 10min mark

Great. Come and join....
http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtop ... t=12799966

I found it useful having an aim for each month over the winter months.

springtide9

legin wrote:

try the llanelli scarlets rugby team concept rowing training.i love rowing and have got quite good at it.i find it improves my fitness and its a good over all body work out.
try rowing 500m under 1.50minutes 2 -3 minutes rest and see how many sets you can do its a killer or 5000m under 20 minutes.
theres lots of different types of training if you google it.
i may be attempting a british record next year i can do 500m in 1.26 if i can drop a few seconds i could set a new record for my age and weight category.
go for it

1:26 for 500m..... Well done! Come and join.
http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtop ... t=12799966

springtide9

Zoomer37 wrote:

tc345 wrote:

Zoomer37 wrote:

Unless you doing a headstand on the seat and pedalling with your arms, I reckon you'd be better off spending the time on your bike if your looking to improve your cycling.

You misunderstand that rowing is all about leg strength and power and therefore pretty well transferable to cycling. As others have said i used to do 15+hrs rowing training and feel that it gives better aerobic fitness than 15+hrs cycling.

Nope, completely understood thanks. 15 hrs of rowing! Wow. You should try Zoomba. Its also ace for aerobic fitness, cycling, darts etc

I think you misunderstand what is involved in rowing... especially real rowing and not just ergos.

Whether you like him or hate him., I think James Cracknell has shown how well a top class rower can turn their hand to most endurance sports. I think some people loose sight of what is involved with taking part in endurance sports, it's about producing power by working your muscles, and sustaining it over periods of time. If the muscle groups are similar, as well as the motion, I'm not sure why some people don't understand that the fitness is transferable.
We all know if want to get better at cycling, cycling is the best training. But if it's cold and wet and the only option is using a gym or turbo, then cross training can be very beneficial so that you have variety to keep you motivated .

Barteos

...

weapons

As well as training the leg muscle groups, cross training by rowing will benefit other groups too, the core for instance. Rowers have to have rock solid cores to transfer the power from the legs, through the trunk and back to the oar handle. And a strong core is a good thing in cycling too - it will help you maintain your posture for longer in the saddle.

Mr_Steve

Barteos wrote:

As Zoomer37 said, the best way of improving your cycling is... cycling. It's a s simple as that.
Doing anything else (with the exception of specific exercises targeting your weaknesses) will compromise your performance.
Running or rowing won't do you any harm and will contribute greatly to your overall fitness but spending this time on the bike will be more beneficial.

As for pulling on the bars, when the bike is set up correctly and you maintain reasonably fast cadence, your hands should be just resting effortlessly on the bars and most of your upper body should be fairly relaxed.

Instead of hiding in a gym (as many people tend to do), you may use winter to address possible setup issues and work on your cadence and riding/pedalling style.

There is an assumption made here that everyone rides bikes not knowing what they are doing or rides around on bikes that do not fit. Do not tell me you dont pull on the bars when climbing 15% gradients of which there are a lot around here.

SBezza

Don't need much upper body mass to climb a 25% hill, most of the power required is still in the legs.

By riding a bike your core will get strong, but there is also cycling technique which can only be gained riding on the road.

To tc345, if 15+ hours of cycling didn't get you as fit as 15+ hours of rowing, trying riding that 15 hours a fair bit harder. Rowing is tough and it is probably not easy to have a easy row (though I know nothing about rowing), whereas it is all too easy to have a very gentle ride and think it helps.

Rowing will help fitness without a doubt, but it will not help cycling fitness directly, more just general fitness, which is still better than not riding at all. Rowing on a machine incorrectly is more likely to lead to an injury no doubt, so I would get instruction of how to do it correctly.

springtide9

Just some general comments about using the ergo..

Not that I'm an expert rower at all, just picked up tips form someone who got my into the ergo many years ago who rowed for he team at uni.

There is a big misconception that rowing is about upper body strength. It''s not surprising as you do see a few inexperienced people pulling like mad with their upper body on the ergo, and almost nothing with their legs, but these are obviously people who haven't had any sort of instruction; there is a lot of info on using the ergo properly on the C2 website.

As my mate put it, you can probably squat your body weight with your legs (so 2x body weight), but you are unlikely to be anything like as strong with your upper body.
Don't know the exact figures, but I guess it's probably 80+% legs (glutes/quads) and 20% pr less on the upper body. Obviously when you push with your legs, you need to support your core for the transfer of power through the arms.

Think is't all been said above about the best exercise for cycling is cycling... but for a lot of people it's not practical for many reasons.

I can generally grab a 60-90min gym/swim session every day, regardless of whether working from home or at work.
But cycling to work is out of the question (60 miles away). Same goes while at home.. generally have back-to-back meetings almost all the day, and it's not practical for me to take a real bike out in that time - it's 15 mins before I get away fro heavy traffic (which gives zero workout), and I'd need to make sure I factor in time - just I got a mechanical issue (puncture etc). It's much better use of my time using the gym for the full time period (I'm 2 mins walking distance at home and at work from a gym)

I have been reading a few books recently on competitive road cycling, the current one is the History of the Tour De France - A Race For Madman. It's interesting that over the years a lot of top cyclists have cross trained. Obviously they spend most of their time on the bike, but it's not all that they do. Can't remember his name now, but it was a saying that you are only as strong as your weakest part.

Barteos

Mr_Steve wrote:

Barteos wrote:

As Zoomer37 said, the best way of improving your cycling is... cycling. It's a s simple as that.
Doing anything else (with the exception of specific exercises targeting your weaknesses) will compromise your performance.
Running or rowing won't do you any harm and will contribute greatly to your overall fitness but spending this time on the bike will be more beneficial.

As for pulling on the bars, when the bike is set up correctly and you maintain reasonably fast cadence, your hands should be just resting effortlessly on the bars and most of your upper body should be fairly relaxed.

Instead of hiding in a gym (as many people tend to do), you may use winter to address possible setup issues and work on your cadence and riding/pedalling style.

There is an assumption made here that everyone rides bikes not knowing what they are doing or rides around on bikes that do not fit. Do not tell me you dont pull on the bars when climbing 15% gradients of which there are a lot around here.

I didn't mean to sound patronising and question your technique or the bike fit but your own words were "even when light pedalling" not just climbing 15% hills.
That's the reason why I assumed there may be a problem somewhere.

AidanR

As an ex-rower (still erg) and coach who has taken university crews to national titles (OK, that sounds a lot more impressive than it really is!), I can't resist weighing in

Firstly, technique. To get effective training done on the erg, good technique is a must. I draw a parallel between doing proper deep squats and using a leg-press machine in a half-arsed fashion in terms of difference in effectiveness. You can teach yourself to an extent, but it's difficult to really nail the technique without help.

Secondly, effect on cycling. Rowing is power-endurance, with most training based around 2000m racing. As such, it's quite different to road cycling. The cross-over with rowing and cycling tends to focus on track cycling. That's not to say that you can't use the erg for longer training, of course.

There's certainly a big focus on power from the legs in rowing (50% from the legs, 35% from the back, 15% from arms/upper back is my general rule of thumb), but it's over a much larger range of motion than cycling, and the legs move more slowly. You can benefit from it, but it will be limited.

I know many ex-rowers (mainly lightweights) who have switched to cycling (often time trialling). It's not because physically rowing has adapted them well to cycling, but mentally. Both sports are about pushing yourself to the edge of what you're capable of, whilst maintaining focus and technique.

This, however, is not necessarily something simply erging on your own in the gym will develop. As I alluded to above, it is difficult to really hurt yourself on an erg if your technique is poor (well, aside from injuring yourself!).

So it depends on what you want to achieve on the bike. Personally I feel that unless you are very serious about competing, it is best to cross train. I lift weights, erg, run, do yoga and do gymnastics strength training as well as cycle. Of course these things don't help my cycling all that much - specificity is key for this - but I'm not interested in being the fastest cyclist around. I'm happy with being decent at it, and am far more interested in being a healthy, strong and lean generalist.

pjm-84

No in simple terms.

springtide9

Found this thread..
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=5585

To quote:
You know I find it interesting that a lot of rowers and have competed at a high level (Olympics and so on), switch to cycling and have a lot of success. Aussie Cameron Wurf, rode last season for Fuji-Servetto, is an ex-rower, and rode the Australian TT Championships and had a good ride and rode at the Worlds in Germany in 2007. He was a top level rower. Rebecca Romero was a silver medalist for GB at the 2004 Athens Olympics in the women's quadruple sculls, retired in 2006, started cycling and was the British TT champion that year. Now she has a Gold Medal in the Individual Pursuit at the 2008 Beijing Olympics. And just the other day Amber Halliday won the women's TT in the Australian National Championships. She was at the Beijing Olympics for Australia in rowing.

If there was so little cross over, there would be no way a sports person could switch and be so competitive within a short period of time.As someone stated above, it tends to be TT type events.
I don't hink there is anything else to say, unless someone knows a few Darts players that have switched to cycling and have also done very well.

AidanR

There's some cross over, but that doesn't mean that using an erg is going to improve his cycling.

As I said, they both have an emphasis on leg power, they're both training the cardiovascular system in a similar way *for certain cycling events* and crucially they both train (or attract) the mental strength needed to push yourself to the edge.

That doesn't mean that some random guy on an internet forum will find that using an erg (likely with poor technique*) will make him a better cyclist. It's such a world away from the above that it's largely irrelevant. I'd also have to ask how many of these elite rowers continued to use an erg as integral part of their training after switching to cycling. I'm guessing not many.


*This isn't being rude - it takes years to coach someone to have truly effective rowing technique

springtide9

AidanR wrote:

There's some cross over, but that doesn't mean that using an erg is going to improve his cycling.

As I said, they both have an emphasis on leg power, they're both training the cardiovascular system in a similar way *for certain cycling events* and crucially they both train (or attract) the mental strength needed to push yourself to the edge.

That doesn't mean that some random guy on an internet forum will find that using an erg (likely with poor technique*) will make him a better cyclist. It's such a world away from the above that it's largely irrelevant. I'd also have to ask how many of these elite rowers continued to use an erg as integral part of their training after switching to cycling. I'm guessing not many.

*This isn't being rude - it takes years to coach someone to have truly effective rowing technique

I guess I'm coming from someone who has used an ergo for about 15 years now (I have never rowed properly) on and off, while cycling. As I've never been coached, it's unlikely my technique is fantastic, but I think it must be OK as my 2k time is reasonable for my age (6:50 @42yrs, 82kg).
In the last two years have come back to cycling after having small children, but and in these two years have removed the ergo at for periods of times from my weekly routines.
I am restricted to the gym during the week due to personal circumstances, and would say that my fitness improvements fitness tails off when I stop using the ergo. I'm sure if I had more time on a real bike this wouldn't happen, but I don't get that time - it's gym or nothing during the week.
What I find it most beneficial for is endurance strength training; I am pretty happy spinning all day at a decent cadence (100rpm is natural), but it's being able to push the bigger gears that kills me. I did the C2 Challenge Series last year over the winter, and it really seem to pay off for the summer. I personally find that the ergo really forces you to use your glutes, where as on the bike my glutes try to hide and leave my quads to do all of the work. Obviously quads do come into play as well. It has been noticeable being able to drive bigger gears for longer. I use Strava, which has been really useful for being able to track my progress compared to previous outings.

I am not sure why people think there is no cross over between sports. Personally think that is complete b/s unless you are at an elite level.
I trained for a Half Marathon last year, and only did 3 months of running training. I had not done any running for probably 25 years, apart from these 3 months, but completed the Half M in 1:39. Not saying 1:39 is super fast, but it's not too bad.
I also did the occasional duthalon this year, completing the running sections @ 6m30s miles (2x 2 miles), but apart from these events have done zero running since March.