Do SOME cyclists bring trouble upon themselves

spen666

I am probably tempting fate here, but it seems to be some time since I had a real run in with another road user.

Reading these and other cycling message boards, it seems that some people seem to have numerous clashes / incidents with other road users- I'm thinking of near misses, objects being thrown at / other rows etc

I then recalled some debate on here around an incident involving Martin Porter - who blogs as the cycling lawyer - and an incident last december when a motorist was cautioned and he was trying to get the police to prosecute. The nature of that debate is irrelevant for this purpose.

However, I have just rad his blog to check if he ever got the motorist prosecuted - not suprisingly he didn't - but reading through the blog, it seems he is involved in several criminal cases involving motorists.

He records his rides on a helmet cam, so there is evidence there.

The question is why does he seem to attract these incidents when most of us don't?

Is it:
1. The personality of the cyclist
2. The behaviour of the cyclist/ riding style
3. The use of helment cam to gather evidence the rest of us let go/ put down to experience
4. coincidence/ chance

bails87

Riding in accordance with Cycle Craft (ie, properly) attracts the anger of a lot of motorists because it causes them to have to slow down and make more of an effort to get past.

Of course, some people over react, some take things too personally, some act stupidly and make things worse for themselves.

davmaggs

I think a lot of it is down to the cylist. it does seem that the campaigner/youTube warriors find a lot of trouble and so I suspect they either look for it or don't take steps to avoid it the way the rest of us do.

There might also be something in route selection. Certain routes just have more bottlenecks, chavs, tourists wandering about etc

rick_chasey

I'd suggest people who are particularly hot on 'cyclists' rights' and getting police involved with everything etc, are less likely to avoid a potentially inflammatory situation.

I used to be like that. I got LOADS of hassle.

Now I'm pretty calm about more or less anything that happens, and if I can spot a way to avoid hassle, I will, even if I have right of way etc.

Guess what, I get MUCH less hassle.

So yes, people bring it on themselves.

Even the most zen cyclist around will get some abuse however - though that abuse is unlikely to escalate.

I got pushed off my bike by a passenger leaning out of his window - the first I knew of a car being there I was already heading pretty sharpish towards the ground.

Edit: For what it's worth, I found the rage/anger I got on the road really very addictive. I very occasionally crave it.

phy2sll2

I have thought this on many occasions.

A half hour ride to work involves thousands of decisions about positioning, speed, making observations and so on. Guiding all of these is your appetite for risk and attitude towards other road users.

Taking a no compromise stance along the lines of 'I'm where I should be and everybody else needs to work around me' should, we're often told, result in a safer outcome. I'm not so sure any more. Perhaps it increases, as an unwanted side-effect, the likelihood of having run-ins of the type recorded by the 'YouTube warriors' (I like that term, by the way!)

Equally, riding in the gutter is clearly not a safe option.

Is 'road-sense', perhaps, something guided by the principles of Cycle Craft et. al. but developed on through experience? A sort of 'you have to know the rules so you can break them' approach?

chris_bass

I think a lot of it has to do with the area too, i recently moved and now my journey doesn’t go through any bad areas or any particularly high traffic areas and the only problems i have encountered since (admittedly two this week but that’s a rarity!) has been in the last mile or so as i get towards work and therefore more people!

I’d like to think i ride pretty respectfully to other road users and pedestrians

Sewinman

1,

then

2,

then

3,

But not 4.

ex-pat scot

I ride with a few other guys from work at various points in my commute.

One of us (a Special Constable - should know better!) has real issues with traffic and drivers. He is regularly taking evasive late action, involved in shouting matches with drivers and chasing angrily after them. It's not a great deal of fun riding with him in town.

The other 3 of us seem rarely affected.

Why?
2 reasons I think.

First: he has poor road awareness and hazard perception. He does not seem to read the roads, traffic and potential hazards until almost upon them. Drivers on mobiles, harassed mothers not concentrating on cyclists, parked cars, iPod-cocooned pedestrians, others on bikes, bad drivers. He just hares towards them regardless. When they do pull out / in / stop he's forced into evasive action.
Second: he has a short fuse. Chases every altercation down, sprinting after any drivers and shouting / swearing / banging windows to vent his ire.

Both of these mean I'm very cautious riding near him. He was talking this morning of bying a helmet cam to record the bad behaviour of others. Frankly it might give him a bit of an insight into his own road sense. We do tell him when he's getting wound up, but it's difficult to point out a lack of general road awareness and hazard perception.

DonDaddyD

Spen the answer is number 3.

A helmet cam will always record more traffic infringements than we would care to remember. Because it's there to look at once the journey is over it is easier to report and comment on the footage. Whereas, if there was no footage the cyclist would likely forget about it once he got home, unless, of course, the encounter was really bad.

I would argue that the majority of these camera using cyclists don't encounter anymore incidents than me a non-helmet camera cyclists. They've got source material to remind them, I don't.

Also 'Cycle craft' (not aimed at you Spen). The application of reading and applying Cycle Craft doesn't automatically and suddenly make a cyclist safe on the road. That is very much down to the cyclists mentality and ability on a bike. Much like passing a driving test and reading the highway code doesn't automatically and suddenly make a motorist a safe driver. It is not a bible that absolves you of making mistakes once you've read it to the back page.

clanton

I agree with the general trend on here - that some cyclists DO attract - or look for- more flack than others. That said I had a long leisurely ride yesterday on my day off (not strictly speaking a commute!) and had THREE near misses - one of which was crazy beyond belief. If I'd had a helmet cam I would have taken that footage to the cops. Just a bad day I think in my case....

Sewinman

DonDaddyD wrote:

Spen the answer is number 3.

A helmet cam will always record more traffic infringements than we would care to remember. Because it's there to look at once the journey is over it is easier to report and comment on the footage. Whereas, if there was no footage the cyclist would likely forget about it once he got home, unless, of course, the encounter was really bad.

I would argue that the majority of these camera using cyclists don't encounter anymore incidents than me a non-helmet camera cyclists. They've got source material to remind them, I don't.

Also 'Cycle craft' (not aimed at you Spen). The application of reading and applying Cycle Craft doesn't automatically and suddenly make a cyclist safe on the road. That is very much down to the cyclists mentality and ability on a bike. Much like passing a driving test and reading the highway code doesn't automatically and suddenly make a motorist a safe driver. It is not a bible that absolves you of making mistakes once you've read it to the back page.

The question was about 'run ins with other road users', not just normal incidents. Headcam wearers tend to sprint and chase cars so they can knock on the window and chastise the motorist, and when they get the inevitable reaction they can declare triumphantly that its all on camera. They are motivated by being in the 'right', and being morally superior to 'them'. I would call that a personality trait and not one I am very fond of.

I agree with your memory point - I forget most of the dodgy incidents that I encounter. I probably would not if I could be arsed to upload them to youtube etc.

notsoblue

Ugh, some people seem to be implying that those who have unpleasant experiences on the bike somehow deserve it. Thats a pretty repugnant attitude to have.

I get my fair share of random abuse and bullying from other road users, sometimes I let it slide but most of the time I'll follow it up with them.

The problem with the opinion that some cyclists have it coming is that for motorists that bully people on bikes, their very presence on the road gives them justification to act like pr1cks. If there is any one thing that has caused me to be the target of abuse then its the simple act of riding in primary.

If someone randomly honks and drives aggressively around me when I'm just riding in primary at the speed of the traffic on a road like NKR, I'm probably going to pull up next to them and ask them WTF their problem is when they inevitably get stuck in traffic 20 yards later. I'm fully aware that I run the small risk of doing this one day to someone who will react violently. But if you were walking to work, or doing your shopping, or just minding your own business while on foot and somebody rudely pushes you out of the way or insults you, do you just let it slide or do you say something?

notsoblue

"Do some cyclists bring it upon themselves"....jesus, just that question alone is insulting enough.

Sewinman

notsoblue wrote:

"Do some cyclists bring it upon themselves"....jesus, just that question alone is insulting enough.

It is pretty telling that your immediate reaction to this thread is to be insulted.

notsoblue

Sewinman wrote:

notsoblue wrote:

"Do some cyclists bring it upon themselves"....jesus, just that question alone is insulting enough.

It is pretty telling that your immediate reaction to this thread is to be insulted.

Yeah, I'd imagine it is! What conclusions are you drawing from that?

DonDaddyD

Sewinman wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Spen the answer is number 3.

A helmet cam will always record more traffic infringements than we would care to remember. Because it's there to look at once the journey is over it is easier to report and comment on the footage. Whereas, if there was no footage the cyclist would likely forget about it once he got home, unless, of course, the encounter was really bad.

I would argue that the majority of these camera using cyclists don't encounter anymore incidents than me a non-helmet camera cyclists. They've got source material to remind them, I don't.

Also 'Cycle craft' (not aimed at you Spen). The application of reading and applying Cycle Craft doesn't automatically and suddenly make a cyclist safe on the road. That is very much down to the cyclists mentality and ability on a bike. Much like passing a driving test and reading the highway code doesn't automatically and suddenly make a motorist a safe driver. It is not a bible that absolves you of making mistakes once you've read it to the back page.

The question was about 'run ins with other road users', not just normal incidents. Headcam wearers tend to sprint and chase cars so they can knock on the window and chastise the motorist, and when they get the inevitable reaction they can declare triumphantly that its all on camera. They are motivated by being in the 'right', and being morally superior to 'them'. I would call that a personality trait and not one I am very fond of.

I agree with your memory point - I forget most of the dodgy incidents that I encounter. I probably would not if I could be arsed to upload them to youtube etc.

You mean you don't do this?

I still think my point still stands. Without the camera even if I were to argue with the motorist, and it does happen, unless it was really bad I probably wouldn't even remember.

Also having the camera is like a protective shield. "I've got you on camera, so I can be a prick and you can't deck me". So yeah I suppose some do go looking.

clarkey cat

I see cyclists banging on car windows and then huffily exclaiming "DO YOU WANT TO WATCH WHERE YOU'RE GOING? YOU NEARLY RAN ME OVER" in the squeaky annoying voice that only a city tosser dressed in lycra can really pull off.

joelsim

Yes they do. As do some motorists. As do some pedestrians.

Road sense is something some people will never have.

I say ban everyone with no road sense, and lock all the chavs up.

Problem sorted.

notsoblue

clarkey cat wrote:

I see cyclists banging on car windows and then huffily exclaiming "DO YOU WANT TO WATCH WHERE YOU'RE GOING? YOU NEARLY RAN ME OVER" in the squeaky annoying voice that only a city tosser dressed in lycra can really pull off.

If someone intentionally almost runs you over, you just let it slide?

Sewinman

notsoblue wrote:

Sewinman wrote:

notsoblue wrote:

"Do some cyclists bring it upon themselves"....jesus, just that question alone is insulting enough.

It is pretty telling that your immediate reaction to this thread is to be insulted.

Yeah, I'd imagine it is! What conclusions are you drawing from that?

Tendency towards indignant rage as a first reaction? To be fair I have no idea if you are a headcam mercenary.

In reference to do cyclists bring it on themselves, I think the key word should be 'some'. In any group there are always people who bring stuff on themselves.

clarkey cat

If someone intentionally almost runs you over, you just let it slide?

yes I do actually

notsoblue

clarkey cat wrote:

If someone intentionally almost runs you over, you just let it slide?

yes I do actually

Why does it bother you that others don't?

Monkeypump

notsoblue wrote:

"Do some cyclists bring it upon themselves"....jesus, just that question alone is insulting enough.

You obviously spotted the 'SOME' in the title, yet still refuse to acknowledge that a single cyclist has ever got themselves into trouble (of their own making)?

Jeez - didn't think you were one of the MBC-style crusaders.

W1

notsoblue wrote:

"Do some cyclists bring it upon themselves"....jesus, just that question alone is insulting enough.

Surely some do? Or are you really of the view that all altercations between motorists and cyclists are always the fault of the motorist?

Or cut out motorists all together, and think about other cyclists - do some cyclists bring arguments/near misses with other cyclists upon themselves? Of course!

bails87

Just for Sewinmann I might put up an entire ~1 hr 45 mins video of my whole commute tomorrow, just to show that not all helmet cam wearers "sprint and chase cars so they can knock on the window and chastise the motorist, and when they get the inevitable reaction they can declare triumphantly that its all on camera. They are motivated by being in the 'right', and being morally superior to'them'. "

Sweeping generalisations are always wrong. :winik:

notsoblue

Sewinman wrote:

notsoblue wrote:

Yeah, I'd imagine it is! What conclusions are you drawing from that?

Tendency towards indignant rage as a first reaction? To be fair I have no idea if you are a headcam mercenary.

Nope, I don't use a headcam. I'm pretty forgiving about genuine mistakes, I understand that cyclists aren't very visible. Indignant rage isn't my first reaction.

Sewinman wrote:

In reference to do cyclists bring it on themselves, I think the key word should be 'some'. In any group there are always people who bring stuff on themselves.

This is a pretty loose definition that favours aggressive drivers, don't you think? Is riding in primary "bringing it on themselves"?

neiltb

of course some do, I get pi$$ed at the peeps on BSO's that use the cycle lanes, on the wrong side of the road that expect me to move out of my lane to let them pass. they brought my disapproving looks upon themselves.

bails87

I'm sure I've pointed it out before, but perhaps the reason why we see more videos of helmet cam wearers having 'incidents' is because...er.....they've got cameras! Plenty of other people might have arguments with drivers, but if it's not on video then there isn't going to be a video of it, is there? Likewise, all the people with cams, who ride like 'non-cam users' don't have any arguments to post up, so you don't see a video of nothing happening.

Sewinman

notsoblue wrote:

Sewinman wrote:

notsoblue wrote:

Yeah, I'd imagine it is! What conclusions are you drawing from that?

Tendency towards indignant rage as a first reaction? To be fair I have no idea if you are a headcam mercenary.

Nope, I don't use a headcam. I'm pretty forgiving about genuine mistakes, I understand that cyclists aren't very visible. Indignant rage isn't my first reaction.

Sewinman wrote:

In reference to do cyclists bring it on themselves, I think the key word should be 'some'. In any group there are always people who bring stuff on themselves.

This is a pretty loose definition that favours aggressive drivers, don't you think? Is riding in primary "bringing it on themselves"?

What definition are you referring too? Re riding primary - depends on the circumstances.

notsoblue

Sewinman wrote:

Sewinman wrote:

In reference to do cyclists bring it on themselves, I think the key word should be 'some'. In any group there are always people who bring stuff on themselves.

This is a pretty loose definition that favours aggressive drivers, don't you think? Is riding in primary "bringing it on themselves"?

What definition are you referring too? Re riding primary - depends on the circumstances.[/quote]

"some cyclists". My point is that riding primary at all is provocative to the kind of motorist that is likely to get annoyed at cyclists..

MrChuck

Definitely they do. That's not to excuse the behaviour of the drivers giving 'it' out, but often these situations don't have to come up in the first place. It's not appeasing drivers to try and avoid those situations, it's just a bit of road sense IMO.
But there are some people that these things seem to happen to surprsingly frequently, a bit too frequently to be just teh roll of the dice I think.

Obviously as notsoblue says there are some drivers who'll give it out whatever but I think they're actually pretty rare.