Russ Downing

Tusher

Thrilled for Endura, and I hope Russ is as pleased as he claims to be. I'd hoped he could still be signed by a Pro Tour Team, but it's not going to happen for him.

Is it better to be a big fish in a small pond, or a wee fish in the sea?

Anonymous

There are shedloads of golfers making loads of cash. Although there may be only 500 pros making significant profit on the major tours, even below the 2nd tier tours (Challenge tour & Nationwide Tour) there are myriad very minor tours such as the AlpsTour which each allow many players to earn 5 figures across a year with little travelling. These players will subsidise income with lessons (you'd not see many nearly-made-it-cyclists getting £20/£30 an hour to give lessons) and through prize money from even smaller events like pro-ams. I'd say there are closer to 5,000 golfers worldwide who make a substantial share of their income from prize-money.

Gavin Cook

How much do domestic pro´s earn more or less ?

prawny

The average ones probably about the same as me sitting on my arse in an office. Although I suspect they spend a lot less on bike gear than I do!

lyn1

Gavin Cook wrote:

How much do domestic pro´s earn more or less ?

2k to 20k depending how you define "pro" and a small number above that

hammerite

Gavin Cook wrote:

How much do domestic pro´s earn more or less ?

Not a huge amount. As they "only" need to train for a few hours each day I'd guess most of them have other sidelines to help pay the bills. The analogy with 3rd tier golfers earning a lot by adding in lessons works for some cyclists, some will do coaching, physio, massage therapy, bike company rep, etc......

dave_1

Dave_1 wrote:

to think of the number of times Downing will have been instrumental in setting his Sky team mate up to win and the Sky team winner will have said "thank you" to his sky team mates in front of media and repeats how " I couldn't have done it without my team" blah blah blah bet that feels like hollow praise to Russel Downing now!! I feel sorry for Downing and think Cav and the others should ease off on the hollow thanking of team mates comments next season..just take the credit as winner and don't give undue sense of worth/job security to domestiques with such hollow praise...the domestique thinks his job is safe ..but they are fired at the end of the season like Downing in many cases.

Good interview with Dan Lloyd today who also comments on the double bind situation I posted the above comments on 2 months ago regarding that system the UCI and Cavs/team leaders create...praise you for your team work even though you ride yourself into unemployment.

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/10666 ... -road.aspx

DL: I have worth to a team but I don’t have points – which a team needs to cement their place in the Pro Tour.

The points system is pretty complicated and not many people understand it.

Philippe Gilbert has spoken out against it; he says that he wants his team 100% committed, not 90% with the other 10% to keep an open for their own opportunities to grab points for themselves.

It’s ironic because it’s a sport which relies so much on team work; Mark Cavendish is always the first to say that he couldn’t do what he does without his team’s efforts for him.

mroli

Choppered wrote:

you'd not see many nearly-made-it-cyclists getting £20/£30 an hour to give lessons.

Interesting one this one... I'd put my hand into my pocket every so often to do a ride with Russ/Dean/Rob Hayles/Maggy leading - 5 people do it, they get the hourly rate, do a training ride and it still only costs as much as a sportive....

simon_e

Dave_1 wrote:

Thomas Drugs are me Decker gets a chance at Garmin in 2012. That's the upside down world of this sport.

Just re-read this a month later, after the Dan Lloyd interview. So they toss the likes of Hammond and Lloyd aside (too late for them to do any productive job-hunting) and sign this doper. OK, ex-doper. Perhaps JV feels it's more important for younger riders to develop.

It must be tough for guys riding at the top of the sport to stop when they still have something to offer. I hope both Roger and Dan find a niche somewhere, whatever it is.

warrior4life

Top domestic Pro's can get up to £35k, Well one does, Just signed for Raleigh as nobody wants to ride for them , The boss is not the best to work for or the most popular.
Quite a few top domestic pro's get £25k and they also get sponsorship deals on the side.
Russ Downing is a class rider and I'm sure he'll get chance to shine in races domestic and abroad, Hopefully he'll get in some races of a high standard and get some good results.

jimmythecuckoo

No-one wants to ride for Raleigh?

They should have phoned me

dave_1

PBo wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

Gavin Cook wrote:

Pross wrote:

I'm surprised so many people think he'll get snapped up elsewhere. I like Russ but at Protour level I'm afraid he's just an average domestique and with the number of teams folding I think there are better options looking for employment.

I think thats under estimating Russell´s ability. He has proven that he is more than an average domestique.

I recall Russell Downing managed a top 10 on one stage in a break away and survived a very serious crash to finish the Giro, so sky should have looked at that. Sky says it is about developing Britiish cyclists but that's a lie.

Did you write that last sentence with a straight face??? There might be good arguments for keeping him, there may not, but that is just ridiculous!

pretty good win by Russel Downing in Tour of Norway. Am sure he could win at World Tour level again..wonder if this will take him back into a world tour team?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/glava- ... -5/results

inkyfingers

I like Russ, but can't see him moving up to the World Tour again. At his age he's not going to get any better so is it better for him to be a small fish in a big pond (and spend most of his time dragging the bunch round the Belgian countryside), or a big fish in a small pond where he gets a chance to lead the team in races that suit him?

mroli

I guess the only person that can answer that is Russ....

dave_1

mroli wrote:

I guess the only person that can answer that is Russ....

He is too good or at least too talented to be wasted on UK level premier calendars,so it's a shame to watch a rider caught in that situation..clearly he's better than many currently signed World Tour riders and the kind of win he's just had shows he should not be stuck on a UK amateur race schedule.

Another good point made by Roche too re Cav and this "I'd like to thank my team, I couldn't have done it without them" guff (but half of the domestiques will get their p45 by Xmas cause they didn't win anything!). I wish they would stop thanking their team so much as cycling is an individual sport as those fired for doing too much teamwork often find out!!!


http://www.cyclingnews.com/blogs/stephe ... -cavendish

rick_chasey

Pro-cont?

Problem is, there are younger riders who have a longer shelf-life who are of similar ability.

mroli

Exactly Rick - Russ is riding a far more competitive schedule than UK events only - Endura have been incredibly proactive about growing as a team and taking on greater challenges and have been very succesful in doing so - they have some great riders - Voss/JTL/Blain/Downing and have got a lot of visibility this year.

simon_e

Dave_1 wrote:

Another good point made by Roche too re Cav and this "I'd like to thank my team, I couldn't have done it without them" guff (but half of the domestiques will get their p45 by Xmas cause they didn't win anything!). I wish they would stop thanking their team so much as cycling is an individual sport as those fired for doing too much teamwork often find out!!!

Roche's piece you linked to contains no insight whatsoever. What a pile of poo! Many 'internet forum people' could have written something equally trite and meaningless.

You presume is that thanking team-mates after a stage win is guff. Why not ask Cavendish what he really thinks? Or ask his former team-mates. Or the GB riders who buried themselves to help him win the Worlds. He can't win. He gets criticised whatever he says, and even when he doesn't say anything.

It's a team, yes, but they don't make a lifelong pledge of loyalty. We can only guess at the reasons why riders join or leave any outfit. The life of a professional cyclist is a precarious existence based on short term contracts and 1- or 2- year sponsorship deals. The drive to acquire riders with UCI points has a significant impact on a rider's marketability, as Russ, Dan Lloyd, and others know too well. But how can the man who wins stages and thanks his team take the blame for that?

No_Ta_Doctor

Dave_1 wrote:

cycling is an individual sport as those fired for doing too much teamwork often find out!!!

Was this a problem before the UCI team ranking on individual points earned came into effect?
If I were a DS putting together a team that was focussed on GC classification in GTs plus putting a world class sprinter into a points jersey I'd be sure to pack the squad with good domestiques. I'd obviously want them to be taking their chances when they got given them, but I would be picking them for their ability to tow Cav over an Alp or put him on the front 200m from the finish of a flat stage and to crank up the pace when Wiggins is trying to pull back a climber.

dave_1

Simon E wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

Another good point made by Roche too re Cav and this "I'd like to thank my team, I couldn't have done it without them" guff (but half of the domestiques will get their p45 by Xmas cause they didn't win anything!). I wish they would stop thanking their team so much as cycling is an individual sport as those fired for doing too much teamwork often find out!!!

Roche's piece you linked to contains no insight whatsoever. What a pile of poo! Many 'internet forum people' could have written something equally trite and meaningless.

You presume is that thanking team-mates after a stage win is guff. Why not ask Cavendish what he really thinks? Or ask his former team-mates. Or the GB riders who buried themselves to help him win the Worlds. He can't win. He gets criticised whatever he says, and even when he doesn't say anything.

It's a team, yes, but they don't make a lifelong pledge of loyalty. We can only guess at the reasons why riders join or leave any outfit. The life of a professional cyclist is a precarious existence based on short term contracts and 1- or 2- year sponsorship deals. The drive to acquire riders with UCI points has a significant impact on a rider's marketability, as Russ, Dan Lloyd, and others know too well. But how can the man who wins stages and thanks his team take the blame for that?

Cav doesn't need to thank the team on TV every time,..he should take the credit (like he rightly takes most of the money in annual salary) for the win himself or if the team mates are so great and indispensable then he should pay them far more to ride like that. Pro cycling is an INDIVIDUAL SPORT first and foremost as you will note from different levels of earnings riders receive and as many of these guys find out come Autumn too when not retained. Roche is right and is why I also get pissy over this politically correct overused repertoire of Cav's.

Turfle

So are you suggesting they don't help Cav at all?

That would be the only possible reason for not thanking them.

Also I'd be interested to know in which team sport everyone gets paid the same.

bigmat

Dave_1 wrote:

Simon E wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

Another good point made by Roche too re Cav and this "I'd like to thank my team, I couldn't have done it without them" guff (but half of the domestiques will get their p45 by Xmas cause they didn't win anything!). I wish they would stop thanking their team so much as cycling is an individual sport as those fired for doing too much teamwork often find out!!!

Roche's piece you linked to contains no insight whatsoever. What a pile of poo! Many 'internet forum people' could have written something equally trite and meaningless.

You presume is that thanking team-mates after a stage win is guff. Why not ask Cavendish what he really thinks? Or ask his former team-mates. Or the GB riders who buried themselves to help him win the Worlds. He can't win. He gets criticised whatever he says, and even when he doesn't say anything.

It's a team, yes, but they don't make a lifelong pledge of loyalty. We can only guess at the reasons why riders join or leave any outfit. The life of a professional cyclist is a precarious existence based on short term contracts and 1- or 2- year sponsorship deals. The drive to acquire riders with UCI points has a significant impact on a rider's marketability, as Russ, Dan Lloyd, and others know too well. But how can the man who wins stages and thanks his team take the blame for that?

Cav doesn't need to thank the team on TV every time,..he should take the credit (like he rightly takes most of the money in annual salary) for the win himself or if the team mates are so great and indispensable then he should pay them far more to ride like that. Pro cycling is an INDIVIDUAL SPORT first and foremost as you will note from different levels of earnings riders receive and as many of these guys find out come Autumn too when not retained. Roche is right and is why I also get pissy over this politically correct overused repertoire of Cav's.

You could say the same about football - is that an individual sport?! I can see that it gets a bit repetitive and boring the way Cav always thanks his team, but the point he is making is (and always will be) valid - he depends on his teammates for his success and I can understand why he makes a point of thanking them.

Should he be obliged to share his financial rewards with them as well? I presume they get a share of his race winnings and for all I know they may be rewarded in other ways - I certainly don't see it as Cav's job to
"pay them far more to ride like that" as you suggest.

The issue re ranking points is a tricky one. At the moment it is easy to see how a loyal domestique at a big team can get trapped as without ranking points, they are not that attractive to smaller squads in the event that they lose their place at the top table. It comes down to them needing to ensure that they got their own opportunities during the season and that they then TAKE those opportunities. I remember a race towards the end of last season where Russ went in as Sky's protected rider. He needed to win or come close but in the end was off the pace and I think wasn't even Sky's top finisher. No criticism of him - he would have been under a lot of pressure and was perhaps having a bad day - but for guys like him under the current system a lot probably turns on those kinds of ride.

I'm not sure how things could be improved - maybe award points to all team riders when one of their team wins a stage? I'd need to think about that a bit more...

Tom Butcher

Off topic somewhat but I think ranking points should go to the teams - after all we don't really need a league table of riders we can make our own minds up who is best looking at their palmares.

I know it might stop new teams coming in with big sponsors and getting automatic invitations to the big races but there are usually existing teams looking for new sponsors at the end of most seasons and if teams have to build through a season or two as pro conti or whatever that's maybe not a bad thing - and there are always wild card invitations for the odd exception.