Russ Downing

Tusher

So sad for Downing, although at least he can look back and say he spend two years in the premier league and finished one of the toughest GTs.

So true about the life of a domestique, no matter how good they are.

pedro118118

Like anyone else, Russ isn't owed a living by Sky. Or any other team for that matter. Bottom line is, it is a competitive market place and there a great many riders looking for limited spots on WorldTour (?!) teams.

Has Russ done enough to prove his worth - that's open to debate. He seems like a nice guy and has acheived some noteworthy results during his time at Sky, but they must plan for the future. With the egos of Cav AND Wiggo to massage.

When you have the likes of Pozzato/Visconti etc having to take a step down, then you know that the market place is tight.

pedro118118

Like anyone else, Russ isn't owed a living by Sky. Or any other team for that matter. Bottom line is, it is a competitive market place and there a great many riders looking for limited spots on WorldTour (?!) teams.

Has Russ done enough to prove his worth - that's open to debate. He seems like a nice guy and has acheived some noteworthy results during his time at Sky, but they must plan for the future. With the egos of Cav AND Wiggo to massage.

When you have the likes of Pozzato/Visconti etc having to take a step down, then you know that the market place is tight.

Turfle

How long should Sky be required to keep him? Every extra year they keep him is one less year of getting paid for another rider.

It sucks that riders (and many sportsmen) struggle in their post-athletic careers, but hanging onto riders over riders you believe are better, is not a solution. Neither is the frankly bizarre suggestion that domestiques shouldn't be thanked for their work.

squired

If you are a domestique surely the key is to make sure you are seen as invaluable to star riders in the squad. There are plenty of examples of domestiques that move squads with key riders. Or for example, I remember Philipe Gilbert requesting Adam Blythe (who have both gone to BMC) in a few races last season. If a rider is requesting you to be in races with him your job is generally going to be safer.

In a sense it is like being in a normal workplace. Even if someone is in a support role, some make themselves invaluable, while others don't.

Without having inside knowledge it is hard to say for certain that the above is true for Downing, but I wouldn't be surprised. I think his age (i.e. not going to improve further) and the desire to change the dymanic of the squad to fit with Cav were also big factors.

timturpinfleck

The British domestic scene has moved on a long way since Russ moved to Sky. I feel a move to someone like Endura would be good for him, as he could pass on his experience to the younger riders and place well in races for them. He would get a good race schedule at Endura given the calibre of rider that he is and would probably be team leader along with Camano. He would have a good quality team around him and we know Endura are still trying to improve their squad as Brian Smith tried to sign Andy Fenn.

Also, what is happening with Jeremy Hunt, as he is another rider that isn't being kept on.

Cleat Eastwood

Funnily enough I came across an interview with Mark 'the scally' McNally from 2009 and he said his team at the time, Halfords, would have won more races if it wasn't for Downing. They used to call him the 'Hob Nob that wont break', and gives an example of the halfords team dropping Russ in a race round Pendle only to have him over take them on the final climb and lose them all on the descent.

I like his clothes too. Good luck to him where e'er the sport wind takes him.

simon_e

timturpinfleck wrote:

The British domestic scene has moved on a long way since Russ moved to Sky. I feel a move to someone like Endura would be good for him, as he could pass on his experience to the younger riders and place well in races for them.

Much as everyone was chuffed to bits to see Russ at Sky perhaps he hasn't been able to do 100% of what they've wanted or his style doesn't fit in with DB's plan for world domination. Expectations are bound to be extremely high at that level and with teams merging and closing it's a buyers' market.

The two years he's had won't be lost - not only has he had those two seasons at the peak of the sport but also all that experience as "the 'Hob Nob that wont break" (great moniker!), kicking arse at home pretty often too. And he will come with the label of "former Team Sky rider", which should get some much-needed attention for the events he will attend.

I never feel sorry for anyone that has to give up being paid to be a full-time athlete. They are fortunate enough to earn a living riding a bike / driving / kicking a ball, something most people can't ever hope to get near. Of course they worked hard to do it but they know it will end so it's up to them to choose to plan for the future or wait and see what happens. It's more annoying when talent is wasted, like Robert Millar's woefully short tenure at BCF after he retired.

dave_1

Simon E wrote:

timturpinfleck wrote:

The British domestic scene has moved on a long way since Russ moved to Sky. I feel a move to someone like Endura would be good for him, as he could pass on his experience to the younger riders and place well in races for them.

Much as everyone was chuffed to bits to see Russ at Sky perhaps he hasn't been able to do 100% of what they've wanted or his style doesn't fit in with DB's plan for world domination. Expectations are bound to be extremely high at that level and with teams merging and closing it's a buyers' market.

The two years he's had won't be lost - not only has he had those two seasons at the peak of the sport but also all that experience as "the 'Hob Nob that wont break" (great moniker!), kicking ars* at home pretty often too. And he will come with the label of "former Team Sky rider", which should get some much-needed attention for the events he will attend.

I never feel sorry for anyone that has to give up being paid to be a full-time athlete. They are fortunate enough to earn a living riding a bike / driving / kicking a ball, something most people can't ever hope to get near. Of course they worked hard to do it but they know it will end so it's up to them to choose to plan for the future or wait and see what happens. It's more annoying when talent is wasted, like Robert Millar's woefully short tenure at BCF after he retired.

dave_1

Simon E wrote:

timturpinfleck wrote:

The British domestic scene has moved on a long way since Russ moved to Sky. I feel a move to someone like Endura would be good for him, as he could pass on his experience to the younger riders and place well in races for them.

Much as everyone was chuffed to bits to see Russ at Sky perhaps he hasn't been able to do 100% of what they've wanted or his style doesn't fit in with DB's plan for world domination. Expectations are bound to be extremely high at that level and with teams merging and closing it's a buyers' market.

The two years he's had won't be lost - not only has he had those two seasons at the peak of the sport but also all that experience as "the 'Hob Nob that wont break" (great moniker!), kicking ars* at home pretty often too. And he will come with the label of "former Team Sky rider", which should get some much-needed attention for the events he will attend.

I never feel sorry for anyone that has to give up being paid to be a full-time athlete. They are fortunate enough to earn a living riding a bike / driving / kicking a ball, something most people can't ever hope to get near. Of course they worked hard to do it but they know it will end so it's up to them to choose to plan for the future or wait and see what happens. It's more annoying when talent is wasted, like Robert Millar's woefully short tenure at BCF after he retired.

:roll: I do feel sorry for some of them ex pros..crap pay, no transferable skills, uses many years when other uses of that time would've been better, horribly hard training, doors slammed in your face by sponsors who suddenly decide they're out. I am tempted to say you have not done a sport too seriously hence your 'never feel sorry for" comment

iainf72

Dave_1 wrote:

:roll: I do feel sorry for some of them ex pros..crap pay, no transferable skills, uses many years when other uses of that time would've been better, horribly hard training, doors slammed in your face by sponsors who suddenly decide they're out. I am tempted to say you have not done a sport too seriously hence your 'never feel sorry for" comment

But the other option could be working in the factory and then losing your job when times are tough. It's all about risk, you make your choice and take your chances. Then you get guys like Manuel Q or Pinotti who keep their education up and have a career.

dave_1

iainf72 wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

:roll: I do feel sorry for some of them ex pros..crap pay, no transferable skills, uses many years when other uses of that time would've been better, horribly hard training, doors slammed in your face by sponsors who suddenly decide they're out. I am tempted to say you have not done a sport too seriously hence your 'never feel sorry for" comment

But the other option could be working in the factory and then losing your job when times are tough. It's all about risk, you make your choice and take your chances. Then you get guys like Manuel Q or Pinotti who keep their education up and have a career.

Why are you saying they would otherwise be down a factory? I think you shouldn't assume one's only other choice would be working in a factory..that is a minority...many many young people have the opportunity or create the opportunity to go into various interesting careers..I think you really need to accept the odds of making a decent living from this sport are slim..not many like Gilbert, Cav or Evans

iainf72

I accept it, agreed. We all know the world isn't really fair. You'll get people who will market themselves well during their cycling career and come out of it with enough contacts to land some kind of gig.

No one is forced into cycling.

And if we drag it back to Russ, he's been doing it for years as a domestic pro, the guy knows the score and I'm pretty sure he's not bitter about it.

dave_1

iainf72 wrote:

I accept it, agreed. We all know the world isn't really fair. You'll get people who will market themselves well during their cycling career and come out of it with enough contacts to land some kind of gig.

No one is forced into cycling.

And if we drag it back to Russ, he's been doing it for years as a domestic pro, the guy knows the score and I'm pretty sure he's not bitter about it.

I think some occupations could be relatively fair as the experience built up, the skills, simply carries one on and takes one on through their career development...but definitely professional cycling does not have an upwardly promoting structure..it's the opposite that happens and it's poorly paid.

I think seeing too many clips of Gilbert or cav punching the air/pointing at the sky on the line makes one forget it's a bit lousy for many of them post cycling. Life isn't fair in any walk of life but esp not this sport.. better not to see cycling through rose tinted spectacles either is all I mean

Gavin Cook

So , no news where he is going yet ?

RichN95.

Dave_1 wrote:

I think some occupations could be relatively fair as the experience built up, the skills, simply carries one on and takes one on through their career development...but definitely professional cycling does not have an upwardly promoting structure..it's the opposite that happens and it's poorly paid.

I think seeing too many clips of Gilbert or cav punching the air/pointing at the sky on the line makes one forget it's a bit lousy for many of them post cycling. Life isn't fair in any walk of life but esp not this sport.. better not to see cycling through rose tinted spectacles either is all I mean

But Dave, the minimum wage for a World Tour rider is 40k Euros. That's a decent wage someone in their 20s. Many will be on a more than that, and they can add bonuses. Cyclists tend to live a fairly simple life, so unless they blow all their money on sports cars they will have enough money post career to fund an education and most will have language skills which is always a bonus. They are hardly left without hope, especially compared to the average person of their age these days.

And there are over 500 World Tour riders. For all their wealth, tennis and golf don't support 500 professionals.

dave_1

RichN95 wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

I think some occupations could be relatively fair as the experience built up, the skills, simply carries one on and takes one on through their career development...but definitely professional cycling does not have an upwardly promoting structure..it's the opposite that happens and it's poorly paid.

I think seeing too many clips of Gilbert or cav punching the air/pointing at the sky on the line makes one forget it's a bit lousy for many of them post cycling. Life isn't fair in any walk of life but esp not this sport.. better not to see cycling through rose tinted spectacles either is all I mean

But Dave, the minimum wage for a World Tour rider is 40k Euros. That's a decent wage someone in their 20s. Many will be on a more than that, and they can add bonuses. Cyclists tend to live a fairly simple life, so unless they blow all their money on sports cars they will have enough money post career to fund an education and most will have language skills which is always a bonus. They are hardly left without hope, especially compared to the average person of their age these days.

And there are over 500 World Tour riders. For all their wealth, tennis and golf don't support 500 professionals.

many have raced for 10 years and perhaps not at that wage..and how long are they paid that..2 years and then back to a team with a bike paid, petrol paid and and a jersey I think

and how do we know many will be on more than 40,000 euros? Also, can we see a standard employment contract?

RichN95.

Dave_1 wrote:

many have raced for 10 years and perhaps not at that wage..and how long are they paid that..2 years and then back to a team with a bike paid, petrol paid and and a jersey I think

But how many people do you think the sport owes a living to? There's already 500+ World Tour riders (a lot). And there's plenty of Pro Conti's doing quite nicely. Just because someone can ride a bike, it doesn't mean he has the right to make a living from it. There's only so many wages that the sport can support.

A friend of mine was a hockey player - got 200 caps for New Zealand, played in three World Cups and an Olympics (should have been two). He was better at his sport than Russell Downing is at cycling. But he never made any real money from it. He had to work various jobs and studied for an engineering degree. He made do and now runs his own engineering company.

No cyclist is owed a living. They're not special. They have to work jobs with uncertain futures just like everyone else.

dave_1

RichN95 wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

many have raced for 10 years and perhaps not at that wage..and how long are they paid that..2 years and then back to a team with a bike paid, petrol paid and and a jersey I think

But how many people do you think the sport owes a living to? There's already 500+ World Tour riders (a lot). And there's plenty of Pro Conti's doing quite nicely. Just because someone can ride a bike, it doesn't mean he has the right to make a living from it. There's only so many wages that the sport can support.

A friend of mine was a hockey player - got 200 caps for New Zealand, played in three World Cups and an Olympics (should have been two). He was better at his sport than Russell Downing is at cycling. But he never made any real money from it. He had to work various jobs and studied for an engineering degree. He made do and now runs his own engineering company.

No cyclist is owed a living. They're not special. They have to work jobs with uncertain futures just like everyone else.

the sport should pay a damn good living to those in the world tour level or breaking into it-not just for 1 or 2 years but as a career-time limited as cycling is....it should owe a good living given the sacrafices involved. I don't know what pro conti or below teams pay but I'll bet you many will be on a low paid deals..lots of hellish training and that for chump change..it's a mugs game for many...anyway you go back to the dreamland of Cav and Gilbert wins/victory salutes..there are two sides to this sport..most only want to see one

RichN95.

Dave_1 wrote:

the sport should pay a damn good living to those in the world tour level or breaking into it-not just for 1 or 2 years but as a career-time limited as cycling is....it should owe a good living given the sacrafices involved.

But why should it? It's just pedalling. They have a good VO2 max. In itself that doesn't translate to money.

The participants are only welcome to the money that they generate. None but the best are worth long term contracts. None outside the top 500 can or should expect to make a living, Cycling looks after far more many athletes than so called richer sports (tennis, golf)

Tom Butcher

Interesting subject. Anyone know how long cycling has supported that many full time pros ? Was it always the case or was there a time when a proportion of the peloton in relatively big races were part timers with other jobs ?

I seem to remember something about some pros having other jobs in the Winter.

edit - I mean in the past - not now.

RichN95.

Tom Butcher wrote:

I seem to remember something about some pros having other jobs in the Winter.

I notice that Liquigas have a few Poles on the team. I suspect they're using them to install gas fittings in the off season.

Tusher

Sorry to be pedantic, but, if you count in club professionals, then there are many more golf pros who may, or may not, play on a competitive circuit.

dave_1

RichN95 wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

the sport should pay a damn good living to those in the world tour level or breaking into it-not just for 1 or 2 years but as a career-time limited as cycling is....it should owe a good living given the sacrafices involved.

But why should it? It's just pedalling. They have a good VO2 max. In itself that doesn't translate to money.

The participants are only welcome to the money that they generate. None but the best are worth long term contracts. None outside the top 500 can or should expect to make a living, Cycling looks after far more many athletes than so called richer sports (tennis, golf)

you say "it's only pedaling"...but that might be only cause you or most pedal slowly and not very far daily, in the weather you want, so maybe you should reconsider what a hard occupation it is in the top 2 or 3 tiers. Of the the top 500 riders you mention, please REMEMBER several hundred of them drop in and out of those top tier of teams within 2 years so spend MOST of their career on chump change without the minimum wage protection/propaganda you threw at me on the previous page.

Were I to encounter young cyclists I wouldn't talk up such a joke of an industry as pro cycling, would forbid years off after uni or full-time biking, remind them of better things that can be done with one's time.

ozzzyosborn206

its a hard job but no one who makes a living from it would swap it for anything else, i go training when the weathers rubbish, its still dark in the morning and i would much rather be in bed just in the hope i might be a bit less rubbish at the next race and i don't even get paid

gsk82

no one says they have to do it. there are other jobs out there and if they aren't capable of doing any of them then its their own fault, not the sport's.

i cant see there being less than 500 people reliant on golf for a living. a golfer from round these parts is the world no 227 and according to the official european tour website earnt EU409,000 this season!

RichN95.

gsk82 wrote:

i cant see there being less than 500 people reliant on golf for a living. a golfer from round these parts is the world no 227 and according to the official european tour website earnt EU409,000 this season!

The thing you have to remember for golfers and tennis players is that they have massive overheads. Flights, travel etc, these aren't paid for by the tournaments. To make the annual profit that a WT cyclist makes, a tennis player needs to be in the top 100. Golf maybe a little lower, but not too far off.

I would be very surprised if the no. 200 in golf or tennis has more take home pay than the no. 200 in cycling.

Stone Glider

All very interesting points of view but have we heard what is happening for R D?

This debate seems to have wandered down to the realms of the former D D R (and perhaps the current P R China?) where early testing determined the destiny of the child. "You Oleg will be a Cyclist, you Olga will be a shot putter, swallow these tablets; they are to make you strong". Every cycling autobiography that I have read is consistent in stating that the choice of a career in cycling was not only much sought after but also deaply satisfying. Aftermaths are a more nuanced issue.

prawny

Endura then. Not a bad move, shame he's not staying at the top level but there's a solid chance of a brit winning the TOB now!

dave_1

Thomas Drugs are me Decker gets a chance at Garmin in 2012. That's the upside down world of this sport.