Powertap expensive and failure prone

doyler78

I'm nearly scared to post but so far mine is holding up. It's been a few heavy persistent rain rides and not got t1ts up. Crossing everything. Mind you thought it was borked the other morning until I realised I'd left on the zeroing mode :oops:

levitronix

Well. . Took the PT out after leaving it to dry out for 48 hours put the battery clip on and nothing, tried the contact cleaner again still nothing, tried a battery clip from my other PT and it worked for about 30 seconds thought great put the battery cover on then it went dead again. Never came to life again, will try new batteries and the contact lube mentioned but its driving me crazy now. I need that work for next week big time am right in the middle of my training plan and dont wana go off course

laser-spoke

May be to try something different - Laser Spoke power meter. We are ready for manufacturing and our campaign is on Indiegogo - http://igg.me/p/95387?a=552518. Please check our campaign and watch our video. I am sure you will like this;). And yes, we need beta testers.

amaferanga

laser-spoke wrote:

May be to try something different - Laser Spoke power meter. We are ready for manufacturing and our campaign is on Indiegogo - http://igg.me/p/95387?a=552518. Please check our campaign and watch our video. I am sure you will like this;). And yes, we need beta testers.

How accurate do you think it'll be out on the road? I notice you only talk about your accuracy on a turbo trainer. Is that because you expect it to be much less accurate out in the real world?

Strange that you seem to be suggesting that an as yet not even manufactured power meter would be more reliable!

laser-spoke

Thanks for your interest. You are right - we used a turbo trainer with controlled resistance as a reference for the calibration and tune our algorithm. Otherwise you don't know what are you measuring.

The level of accuracy of any meter depends on the accuracy of calibration. Theoretically it can be infinite;). Seriously, I believe that for LS power meter 1-3% is achievable target. We use signal processing at the higher frequencies, so the reading is not affected by vibration from the riding, road etc.

Reliability... LS is an optical device - there are no contacts, friction or strain gauges. Compare, for example, optical and ball mouses or CD and vintage vinyl players... Of course, as with any technology everything is depend on implementation.

amaferanga

laser-spoke wrote:

Thanks for your interest. You are right - we used a turbo trainer with controlled resistance as a reference for the calibration and tune our algorithm. Otherwise you don't know what are you measuring.

The level of accuracy of any meter depends on the accuracy of calibration. Theoretically it can be infinite;). Seriously, I believe that for LS power meter 1-3% is achievable target. We use signal processing at the higher frequencies, so the reading is not affected by vibration from the riding, road etc.

Reliability... LS is an optical device - there are no contacts, friction or strain gauges. Compare, for example, optical and ball mouses or CD and vintage vinyl players... Of course, as with any technology everything is depend on implementation.

Good luck with it. It'd be great to see a new power meter on the market that really is affordable for more cyclists. It's got to give good data though, but if you nail price and it works and it weighs as little as you're hoping then you could be onto a winner!

napoleond

One immediate question about the laser spoke thingy is fouling - i.e. my wheels get covered in crap due to the state of the roads, would this clog up the laser device?

Herbsman

You have to pay to be a tester of this thing. Sounds like a right con.

Alex_Simmons/RST

laser-spoke wrote:

Thanks for your interest. You are right - we used a turbo trainer with controlled resistance as a reference for the calibration and tune our algorithm. Otherwise you don't know what are you measuring.

The level of accuracy of any meter depends on the accuracy of calibration. Theoretically it can be infinite;). Seriously, I believe that for LS power meter 1-3% is achievable target. We use signal processing at the higher frequencies, so the reading is not affected by vibration from the riding, road etc.

Reliability... LS is an optical device - there are no contacts, friction or strain gauges. Compare, for example, optical and ball mouses or CD and vintage vinyl players... Of course, as with any technology everything is depend on implementation.

I have posted your link at the google groups wattage forum. If you want solid feedback, that is the place to go.

Suggest joining if you have not already:
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgr ... um/wattage

P_Tucker

Herbsman wrote:

You have to pay to be a tester of this thing. Sounds like a right con.

+1

IanPV

Herbsman wrote:You have to pay to be a tester of this thing. Sounds like a right con.

Not really - he's just trying to raise the money to build the thing - fair play to him (no idea if it is any good, I'll let the experts determine that, but these crowdfunding projects are pretty interesting).

doyler78

IanPV wrote:

Herbsman wrote:You have to pay to be a tester of this thing. Sounds like a right con.

Not really - he's just trying to raise the money to build the thing - fair play to him (no idea if it is any good, I'll let the experts determine that, but these crowdfunding projects are pretty interesting).

Ah perspective. Always good to get a fuller picture

ballspondroad

Interesting variation on standard laser torque measurement but I'm not convinced it will work on the road. Even with lots of super speedy signal processing extracting a signal from the data is going to be tricky.

Jaguar.

They are, in my opinion, absolute rubbish and I would strongly advise anybody even thinking about it not to buy one. My first unit failed after about six months, just stopped working. Lbs suggested water ingress it was returned and eventually came back after a few months. It lasted a bit longer, about 10 months but then total random readings and shot bearings. Sent it back to be told it was out of warranty and would be a about £500 to fix, new torque tube and new bearings. I threw my teddies and moaned to Saris in the US, they agreed to repair it again. Took about four months this time to get repaired. I have hardly used it since, LBS advised against taking it out in the wet again because they are clearly made of cheese or something. Just started training with it again and after maybe a month, power reading suddenly doubles. I check the calibration and the torque literally flicks around randomly when not pedalling. Feeling the bearings, they are shot too. To put this into perspective, when I bought the thing I had it built up with a part used rim, I have used it so little it is still on the same rim yet it has broken twice and is now broken again. I get so little consistent data from it, it is completely worthless as a training aid.

Really, not fit for purpose, absolute garbage, a complete waste of time, effort and a considerable amount of money.

amaferanga

Jaguar. wrote:

They are, in my opinion, absolute rubbish and I would strongly advise anybody even thinking about it not to buy one. My first unit failed after about six months, just stopped working. Lbs suggested water ingress it was returned and eventually came back after a few months. It lasted a bit longer, about 10 months but then total random readings and shot bearings. Sent it back to be told it was out of warranty and would be a about £500 to fix, new torque tube and new bearings. I threw my teddies and moaned to Saris in the US, they agreed to repair it again. Took about four months this time to get repaired. I have hardly used it since, LBS advised against taking it out in the wet again because they are clearly made of cheese or something. Just started training with it again and after maybe a month, power reading suddenly doubles. I check the calibration and the torque literally flicks around randomly when not pedalling. Feeling the bearings, they are shot too. To put this into perspective, when I bought the thing I had it built up with a part used rim, I have used it so little it is still on the same rim yet it has broken twice and is now broken again. I get so little consistent data from it, it is completely worthless as a training aid.

Really, not fit for purpose, absolute garbage, a complete waste of time, effort and a considerable amount of money.

SL+ I presume?

Jaguar.

Elite but I presume they are all rubbish.

Alex_Simmons/RST

Jaguar. wrote:

Elite but I presume they are all rubbish.

I too have had PT failures but it would be wrong to presume they are all rubbish on the basis of one anecdote.

Nevertheless, you should have had better backup to begin with.

cyco2

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Jaguar. wrote:

Elite but I presume they are all rubbish.

I too have had PT failures but it would be wrong to presume they are all rubbish on the basis of one anecdote.

Nevertheless, you should have had better backup to begin with.

And there's some more. Why defend crap?

Alex_Simmons/RST

cyco2 wrote:

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Jaguar. wrote:

Elite but I presume they are all rubbish.

I too have had PT failures but it would be wrong to presume they are all rubbish on the basis of one anecdote.

Nevertheless, you should have had better backup to begin with.

And there's some more. Why defend crap?

Because I (and clients and other people I know) have also experienced excellent usage as well.

We can be quite critical of something based on personal experience / anecdote (that's normal), but really we need to be open to the evidence and to keep in mind the quantities of Powertaps in use versus other power meters when evaluating such things (e.g. if there are say 10 times more of one item than another in the market and their failure rate is the same, how many more complaints for the more popular product do you think you will read about?).

And I don't even sell PTs (just SRM & Quarq).

SBezza

I have had mine for just over a year now, and used in all weathers. I use mine on virtually every ride and race, I have some issues where it just dies, but I think it is more to do with the fact I store it in a garage and over time with wet weather riding and changes in temp etc, it builds up condensation inside the hub.

Bringing it into the house and drying it out seems to have cured the sudden loss of power data. To be honest I think they need to be treated like any other precision instrument, and looked after very carefully. If you ride in the rain with it, bring it into the house and get it dried out.

The original bearings are crap I will admit, and with the Elite water ingress can really rust things up, when mine was serviced Paligap had a real nightmare stripping it down as the axle and the like were so rusted, so again this is more my fault with me not looking after it as good as I could have done after wet rides.

In summary, they are not all rubbish, but they are prone to problems if not looked after properly.

ariege_cyclist

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

We can be quite critical of something based on personal experience / anecdote (that's normal), but really we need to be open to the evidence and to keep in mind the quantities of Powertaps in use versus other power meters when evaluating such things (e.g. if there are say 10 times more of one item than another in the market and their failure rate is the same, how many more complaints for the more popular product do you think you will read about?).

And I don't even sell PTs (just SRM & Quarq).

I've had an Elite+ (with the 15mm axle) for nearly 18 months and used it in all weather, stored it in a shed outside down to -10 this winter and not had a moments problem from it. Replaced batteries once and recently done the full set of bearings, though next time I'd just do the Drive side as these ones are rubbish due to the small size. I've always had consistent data, no drop outs, torque calibration check is always within 2%. So I'm one of the lucky ones with a reliable hub, or the design change to the 15mm axle helpes cure some of the water ingress problems.

Now if you want to talk about water ingress and reliability then I could go on for hours about my Renault Megane, yet a friend has had no issues with his. So as Alex said we need to be open to evidence based on numbers of units out there and numbers actually failing, we always always here the negatives, but rarely the positive stories.

doyler78

Ariege cyclist wrote:

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

We can be quite critical of something based on personal experience / anecdote (that's normal), but really we need to be open to the evidence and to keep in mind the quantities of Powertaps in use versus other power meters when evaluating such things (e.g. if there are say 10 times more of one item than another in the market and their failure rate is the same, how many more complaints for the more popular product do you think you will read about?).

And I don't even sell PTs (just SRM & Quarq).

I've had an Elite+ (with the 15mm axle) for nearly 18 months and used it in all weather, stored it in a shed outside down to -10 this winter and not had a moments problem from it. Replaced batteries once and recently done the full set of bearings, though next time I'd just do the Drive side as these ones are rubbish due to the small size. I've always had consistent data, no drop outs, torque calibration check is always within 2%. So I'm one of the lucky ones with a reliable hub, or the design change to the 15mm axle helpes cure some of the water ingress problems.

Now if you want to talk about water ingress and reliability then I could go on for hours about my Renault Megane, yet a friend has had no issues with his. So as Alex said we need to be open to evidence based on numbers of units out there and numbers actually failing, we always always here the negatives, but rarely the positive stories.

Evidence based anything requires transparency. Do you have the numbers? No! Then how can you be open to anything. I'll whine and see who whines too. That's the only thing I can do as Saris aren't going to tells us what the failure rates are and even if they did would you believe them anyway

doyler78

SBezza wrote:

I have had mine for just over a year now, and used in all weathers. I use mine on virtually every ride and race, I have some issues where it just dies, but I think it is more to do with the fact I store it in a garage and over time with wet weather riding and changes in temp etc, it builds up condensation inside the hub.

Bringing it into the house and drying it out seems to have cured the sudden loss of power data. To be honest I think they need to be treated like any other precision instrument, and looked after very carefully. If you ride in the rain with it, bring it into the house and get it dried out.

The original bearings are crap I will admit, and with the Elite water ingress can really rust things up, when mine was serviced Paligap had a real nightmare stripping it down as the axle and the like were so rusted, so again this is more my fault with me not looking after it as good as I could have done after wet rides.

In summary, they are not all rubbish, but they are prone to problems if not looked after properly.

In the absence of any advice about where to store their product or what to do after rain then it is reasonable for the consumer to assume that a product designed for road use in a country where rain is a part of everyday life is capable of dealing with those conditions. That's the end of it so far as I'm concerned.

As someone who has had numerous problems with my powertap over the years I of course take a more practical approach and do wipe my hub down as best as I can, though not easy when you are reaching between spokes on a 32 spoked wheel. My bike is either kept indoors at work or at home. I have bought their recommended connector lube - not that I've had to use it. I do that not because I feel I am doing anything wrong but because I want to minimise any downtime and therefore will do what I reasonably can to ensure that. In spite of those measures it is clear that the last hub I had was defective from manufacture as my current hub will stand up to rain now when the last hub simply woudn't no matter what I or Paligap done.

So in conclusions I resent your last comment which summarised your position as it seems to suggest that Saris have a 100% fault free manufacture process and that all these problems can all be sorted if we were all just a little more careful.

overthehill

doyler78 wrote:

Ariege cyclist wrote:

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

We can be quite critical of something based on personal experience / anecdote (that's normal), but really we need to be open to the evidence and to keep in mind the quantities of Powertaps in use versus other power meters when evaluating such things (e.g. if there are say 10 times more of one item than another in the market and their failure rate is the same, how many more complaints for the more popular product do you think you will read about?).

And I don't even sell PTs (just SRM & Quarq).

I've had an Elite+ (with the 15mm axle) for nearly 18 months and used it in all weather, stored it in a shed outside down to -10 this winter and not had a moments problem from it. Replaced batteries once and recently done the full set of bearings, though next time I'd just do the Drive side as these ones are rubbish due to the small size. I've always had consistent data, no drop outs, torque calibration check is always within 2%. So I'm one of the lucky ones with a reliable hub, or the design change to the 15mm axle helpes cure some of the water ingress problems.

Now if you want to talk about water ingress and reliability then I could go on for hours about my Renault Megane, yet a friend has had no issues with his. So as Alex said we need to be open to evidence based on numbers of units out there and numbers actually failing, we always always here the negatives, but rarely the positive stories.

Evidence based anything requires transparency. Do you have the numbers? No! Then how can you be open to anything. I'll whine and see who whines too. That's the only thing I can do as Saris aren't going to tells us what the failure rates are and even if they did would you believe them anyway

But by the same token, if the majority of PTs were a bag of bones, surely they would be out of business by now. You can buy their wheels from a number of reputable outlets. Sure they are making a profit on any sales, but they wouldn't bother if say every other customer was reporting an issue would they?

SBezza

doyler78 wrote:

So in conclusions I resent your last comment which summarised your position as it seems to suggest that Saris have a 100% fault free manufacture process and that all these problems can all be sorted if we were all just a little more careful.

Not sure why you resent the comment, regardless of how you think that the Powertap should be fine in all conditions, precision electronics and water don't mix in any form, unless those electronics are perfectly sealed. Obviously moisture gets through the very slightest of gaps, and even if you put a sealed container full of air into a hot enviroment, and then a cold damp enviroment, back and forth, over time you WILL get condensation forming within that sealed container. It is this that perhaps should be minimise by caring for the wheel properly. That is not to say all faults are due to owner care however.

When it comes to the carbon shell versions, they I guess those might be more suspectible to water ingress, if the bonding between the carbon part and the metal part is not 100%, the Elite+ is a solid metal sheel and I have never suffered water ingress on this part obviously. I have never suffered visible water ingress on the battery side either, but the whole axle was rusted in on my hub, as were the bearings, so there was a degree of water ingress.

Nothing is fault free in it's manufacture, these are electronic devices that can fail at any time, but I do think alot of potential issues can be minimised by owner care. I was slack in looking after mine, and it was in a right state after 1 year, I was lucky to have virtually all parts replaced with the exception of the torque tube replaced FOC, and now I tend to look after it a little bit better, by making sure I try and keep it in a non damp enviroment.

doyler78

SBezza wrote:

doyler78 wrote:

So in conclusions I resent your last comment which summarised your position as it seems to suggest that Saris have a 100% fault free manufacture process and that all these problems can all be sorted if we were all just a little more careful.

Not sure why you resent the comment, regardless of how you think that the Powertap should be fine in all conditions, precision electronics and water don't mix in any form, unless those electronics are perfectly sealed. Obviously moisture gets through the very slightest of gaps, and even if you put a sealed container full of air into a hot enviroment, and then a cold damp enviroment, back and forth, over time you WILL get condensation forming within that sealed container. It is this that perhaps should be minimise by caring for the wheel properly. That is not to say all faults are due to owner care however.

When it comes to the carbon shell versions, they I guess those might be more suspectible to water ingress, if the bonding between the carbon part and the metal part is not 100%, the Elite+ is a solid metal sheel and I have never suffered water ingress on this part obviously. I have never suffered visible water ingress on the battery side either, but the whole axle was rusted in on my hub, as were the bearings, so there was a degree of water ingress.

Nothing is fault free in it's manufacture, these are electronic devices that can fail at any time, but I do think alot of potential issues can be minimised by owner care. I was slack in looking after mine, and it was in a right state after 1 year, I was lucky to have virtually all parts replaced with the exception of the torque tube replaced FOC, and now I tend to look after it a little bit better, by making sure I try and keep it in a non damp enviroment.

OK I'm fine with that. I felt you emphasised the cosumer too much when discussing the issues and therefore I felt Saris were not getting their fair share of the blame. Of course we should all look after our equipment. If you don't you pay the price for it as the life will be much diminished.

The thing I have always resented the most was that I had to pay for a torque tube replacement when I was out of warranty on a hub that subsequently had to be replaced after numerous more failures. Had I known of the problems, which Saris most certainly would have, at that time I would not have accepted a charge.

This hub seems to be much better in that it doesn't fall over as soon as it's hit with rain however it is still susceptible to condensation corrosion of the battery connector which even when applied by Paligap still doesn't prevent damage as witnessed by my last return where I hadn't opened the hub at all prior to the fault.

amaferanga

My grumble with PowerTap failures is the cost to replace the torque tube. If it was even a couple of hundred quid I'd probably just accept it, but at nearly £400 it's insane.

SBezza

I agree about the price of a torque tube, if mine ever does go, I will get a different power meter for sure, as for £400 and the fear of it going regularly would put me off instantly.

ariege_cyclist

SBezza wrote:

I agree about the price of a torque tube, if mine ever does go, I will get a different power meter for sure, as for £400 and the fear of it going regularly would put me off instantly.

Totally agree, that's a crazily expensive repair and if mine goes I'd rather put that money towards a crank (or pedal) based power meter than buy another powertap, unless it happens several years down the line in which case I wouldn't be too unhappy.

levitronix

i just got some CW7100 grease will see if that helps bring mine back to life