Wheelsucker etiquette.

sketchley

ddraver wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

What's worst than a drafter a person who sits in my 4 - 5 o'clock a 30 - 60cm from my wheel thereby preventing me to move right without fear of riding into them.

These are the same people who, positioned as they are, when we are approaching an obstacle won't move, slow down or anything effectively attempting to run me into said obstacle.

I also hate when people on my inside swerve right across my path. Which is the counterpoint to the above.

Best just not to ride anywhere near me on my commute unless I know you.

Consider this - If you move out and clip their front wheel, it will almost certainly be them that falls - Signal the first or second time and then just move..

Club runs are totally different though, The point of them is to ride as a group not as a closely spaced TT, so the people at the front should call the obstacles and the calls should ripple back through the group - we can't all ride at the front, the road isnt big enough!

A new question - what about drafting a slow scooter/motorbike like they have over here, they go about 35kph and it was a windy day - not sure the hot Dutch girl driving appreciated it much though :oops:

SCKR - Silly commuter keirin racing, maybe

rjsterry

Rich158 wrote:

cjcp wrote:

Rich158 wrote:

First Aspect wrote:

Rich158 wrote:

Is it really that contentious? I've no problem with being drafted so long as it's done with reasonable care and if I'm drafting I'm always aware that the wheel I'm following may not be used to it and be prone to the odd bit of erratic behaviour so I give them a bit more space than the usual 6 inches or so you get when racing.

If it's done safely then I really don't see the problem

How do you know if its being done safely? I've been on enough group rides with people who think they are doing it safely right up until they touch wheels and go down, to know that I'd rather presume that the wheelsucker is a moron who is putting me at risk.

You're assuming it's the drafter that's the problem. If you're being drafted then you are responsible for the safety of the person behind you, it's basic club run stuff.

My own view is that everyone on the Club run is responsible for their own safety and that the person behind (A) accepts the risk that they can't see what they might be able to if they were the rider in front (B). Point out potholes etc (where possible) but A should not rely on B. You could say that B accepts some risk by allowing A to ride behind him, bit B isn't responsible for A's safety.

Ah I see the lawyer in you is coming out CJCP In my book there's responsibility on all parties in that scenario, perhaps I was rather too emphatic in placing responsibility upon the rider in front. However being responsible for the riders behind you is something that's been drilled into me ever since I started club riding and has been written into the club rules of at least two clubs I've ridden with. As the first person in a group you see the vast majority of hazards first and should point them out and react to them in an appropriate manner that doesn't endanger the safety of those arround you. This is a basic premise I believe should be drilled into all cyclists and doesn't apply purely to a drafting situation. I've nearly been taken out more times than I care to remember by fellow riders acting without any consideration for other road users and riding with a complete lack of awareness of those arround them.

Sorry I'll get down off my high horse now, this is an area that realy gets me going :roll:

This is all fine when dealing with a group of people who all know the deal and will be taking turns up front. The problem is when someone latches on without you realising, and the first you know about it is the halfwit ploughing into your back wheel because he didn't think you'd stop for a red light.

clarkey cat

I really cant stand people drafting me - because it means Im up front taking the wind. I much prefer to be the draftee.

cjcp

clarkey cat wrote:

I really cant stand people drafting me - because it means Im up front taking the wind. I much prefer to be the draftee.

Given that you make a jungle-dwelling parrot look grey and gloomy, I think that's a good idea. My Oakleys can't deal with that brightness.

clarkey cat

That's unfair!

I was all in black today - even my bike was a murky dark green colour - with black wheels.

Obviously the fuschia bag was still out though.

cjcp

Rich158 wrote:

Santa cruzing wrote:

First Aspect wrote:

I simply don't see how drafting a random stranger without permission is compatible with "consideration for other road users".

+1

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying it's right or wrong, personally I don't have a problem with being drafted or with drafting. If I'm drafting someone, and I do on occasion if I'm on a recovery ride, and they ask me not to then no problem I'll move back a bit. If someone tells me to 'feck off' however I'll probably to tell them not to be such a rude c*** and point out they're not as great as they think they are before moving back.

I didn't think you did recovery rides. You going soft on us? :twisted:

I confess to having used some colourful language on the commute when someone doesn't get the message or has actually restricted my room for manoeuvre.

rjsterry

cjcp wrote:

clarkey cat wrote:

I really cant stand people drafting me - because it means Im up front taking the wind. I much prefer to be the draftee.

Given that you make a jungle-dwelling parrot look grey and gloomy, I think that's a good idea. My Oakleys can't deal with that brightness.

First.Aspect

Rich158 wrote:

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying it's right or wrong, personally I don't have a problem with being drafted or with drafting. If I'm drafting someone, and I do on occasion if I'm on a recovery ride, and they ask me not to then no problem I'll move back a bit. If someone tells me to 'feck off' however I'll probably to tell them not to be such a rude c*** and point out they're not as great as they think they are before moving back.

Why don't you ask them first? At least then they will be aware you have latched on.

I know I'm also being absolute - most often you can tell if someone is serious and knows what they are doing. But I have in the past found some weekend warrior types, on nice dry days, in nice crisp white cycling jerseys (or the like) who haven't yet been worn down by slogging along the same route the whole winter, who take a polite "please don't" as a declaration of war.

I remember this one bloke in particular who I passed, he accelerated to wheel suck, I asked him not to, he passed me with some invective spat from beneath his beard. I then had to re-pass him because I had gears and he was on a fashion single speed and we had started to drop down a hill, he repassed me with still more invective (this time reciprocated) and sprinted heroically half way up the next hill throwing me a "lance look". Trouble was I just went up the whole hill at my own speed and re-passed him when he ran out of puff. Still further invective passed said beardy lips, including a threat to "have me off" followed by still more wheelsucking.. so I jammed on my brakes and turned down a side road. He had the gaul to complain to me about nearly hitting his front wheel, so I told him that I'd taken his threat literally and was sorry that I'd missed his front wheel.

I've cycled that route nearly every day at roughly the same time, for 5 years. I only ever saw him the once.

I don't like wheel suckers, generally.

cjcp

clarkey cat wrote:

That's unfair!

I was all in black today - even my bike was a murky dark green colour - with black wheels.

Obviously the fuschia bag was still out though.

I didn't think this was possible, but there's somebody out there who makes me look as if I have dress sense. Sir, I thank you.

Jay dubbleU

Ah I see the lawyer in you is coming out CJCP Wink In my book there's responsibility on all parties in that scenario, perhaps I was rather too emphatic in placing responsibility upon the rider in front. However being responsible for the riders behind you is something that's been drilled into me ever since I started club riding and has been written into the club rules of at least two clubs I've ridden with. As the first person in a group you see the vast majority of hazards first and should point them out and react to them in an appropriate manner that doesn't endanger the safety of those arround you. This is a basic premise I believe should be drilled into all cyclists and doesn't apply purely to a drafting situation. I've nearly been taken out more times than I care to remember by fellow riders acting without any consideration for other road users and riding with a complete lack of awareness of those arround them.

If someone chooses to ride close behind me that's their problem - I don't belong to a club nor do I wish to. If they get taken out by a pothole then they shouldn't have put themselves in a position where they can't see the road surface

notsoblue

rjsterry wrote:

The problem is when someone latches on without you realising, and the first you know about it is the halfwit ploughing into your back wheel because he didn't think you'd stop for a red light.

To be fair, there are enough RLJ'ers out there on my commute that I make a point of checking behind me before I slow down at junctions whether theres someone drafting me or not. Its pretty dangerous to come to a sudden stop without a shouldercheck.

First.Aspect

notsoblue wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

The problem is when someone latches on without you realising, and the first you know about it is the halfwit ploughing into your back wheel because he didn't think you'd stop for a red light.

To be fair, there are enough RLJ'ers out there on my commute that I make a point of checking behind me before I slow down at junctions whether theres someone drafting me or not. Its pretty dangerous to come to a sudden stop without a shouldercheck.

Oh for Christ's sake. Not at a red light it isn't.

clarkey cat

I didn't think this was possible, but there's somebody out there who makes me look as if I have dress sense. Sir, I thank you.

I'm actually a pretty natty dresser when not on the bike.

When I'm leaving the office in my various patches of bright colour people will look shocked and say "God, they won't miss you coming will you?"

"That's the idea" I respond, tartly, before flouncing off in a cacophony of colour.

jds_1981

First Aspect wrote:

notsoblue wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

The problem is when someone latches on without you realising, and the first you know about it is the halfwit ploughing into your back wheel because he didn't think you'd stop for a red light.

To be fair, there are enough RLJ'ers out there on my commute that I make a point of checking behind me before I slow down at junctions whether theres someone drafting me or not. Its pretty dangerous to come to a sudden stop without a shouldercheck.

Oh for Christ's sake. Not at a red light it isn't.

+ Zebra crossings, do this because of cars as much as other cyclists.

Greg T

notsoblue wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Its pretty dangerous to come to a sudden stop without a shouldercheck.

Oh for Christ's sake. Not at a red light it isn't.

Arf - RLJ apologists take note . . .

Actually I make sure I signal my slowing for lights, hand signal, standing up freewheel, shoulder check etc (not all three at once) - it's easier than trusting the following herd to notice your looming backside.

Clever Pun

cjcp wrote:

Rich158 wrote:

Santa cruzing wrote:

First Aspect wrote:

I simply don't see how drafting a random stranger without permission is compatible with "consideration for other road users".

+1

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying it's right or wrong, personally I don't have a problem with being drafted or with drafting. If I'm drafting someone, and I do on occasion if I'm on a recovery ride, and they ask me not to then no problem I'll move back a bit. If someone tells me to 'feck off' however I'll probably to tell them not to be such a rude c*** and point out they're not as great as they think they are before moving back.

I didn't think you did recovery rides. You going soft on us? :twisted:

I confess to having used some colourful language on the commute when someone doesn't get the message or has actually restricted my room for manoeuvre.

I've got to admit I wasn't expecting the highlighted bits.. I was expecting "spin past them and crush their spirit, ideally flicking water in their eye"

notsoblue

First Aspect wrote:

notsoblue wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

The problem is when someone latches on without you realising, and the first you know about it is the halfwit ploughing into your back wheel because he didn't think you'd stop for a red light.

To be fair, there are enough RLJ'ers out there on my commute that I make a point of checking behind me before I slow down at junctions whether theres someone drafting me or not. Its pretty dangerous to come to a sudden stop without a shouldercheck.

Oh for Christ's sake. Not at a red light it isn't.

Whatever your attitude to RLJ, its foolish to simply rely on your sense of self-righteousness to protect you from bad drivers. Being in the right is cold comfort if a car has ploughed into the back of you at a junction.

Rich158

Clever Pun wrote:

cjcp wrote:

Rich158 wrote:

Santa cruzing wrote:

First Aspect wrote:

I simply don't see how drafting a random stranger without permission is compatible with "consideration for other road users".

+1

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying it's right or wrong, personally I don't have a problem with being drafted or with drafting. If I'm drafting someone, and I do on occasion if I'm on a recovery ride, and they ask me not to then no problem I'll move back a bit. If someone tells me to 'feck off' however I'll probably to tell them not to be such a rude c*** and point out they're not as great as they think they are before moving back.

I didn't think you did recovery rides. You going soft on us? :twisted:

I confess to having used some colourful language on the commute when someone doesn't get the message or has actually restricted my room for manoeuvre.

I've got to admit I wasn't expecting the highlighted bits.. I was expecting "spin past them and crush their spirit, ideally flicking water in their eye"

I only draft other cyclists if I'm on a recovery ride or hungover, otherwise I stick to black cab derney training. Lets be honest now, I tend to leave most people for dead even on a recovery ride so if I'm drafting I'm hung over. I never realy have a problem with drafting or people not taking their turn. If somebody sits on my wheel they're either Cav or they're be hurting pretty badly and disapear pretty soon so I leave them to it

_Brun_

Brilliant. So now if someone's drafting me on the way to work I'll have to assume they're still pissed from the previous night. Very reassuring, thanks.

UndercoverElephant

The only person I've had a problem with drafting me, was a guy who tailed me for five miles along the coast road, into a headwind whilst using clip-on tri-bars. I don't mind so much if they have access to their brakes, at least. He was wearing team kit at the time too.

Bloody triathletes.

carrefourdel\'arbre

I made a comment about this on another thread. In my book drafting's fine but only if drafter and draftee both know what they're doing and both are consenting adults (ask before you join). If one of them isn't happy with it then (s)he should politely explain why to the other rider.

As a regular road racer who also commutes along the Embankment most days, I see two problems:

1. people who turn themselves inside out and take incredible risks just to draft someone for a bit without actually being aware of what is going on around them. If I someone does something silly, or rude, near me I politely explain what they are doing wrong, what they should be doing instead (and why). This can sometimes be difficult but hey ho.

2. And faster/experienced cyclists who just call drafters c**ts. They should be explaining the issue politely (see 1 above). If the offending drafter then persists in drafting then they are being a c**t.

So, everyone: ask before you join; and behave reasonably (even if the other guy is being an a***hole.

Hairybuddha

Totally against it. I often get drafters trying to hang on along OKR. With all the traffic and the potholes it's completely mental. If you try it on expect some angry hand signals and choice language to come your way.

Stevo_666

I'm not too keen on being drafted as if I have to brake hard then my disc brakes will probably result in anyone with V's or Canti's rear ending me. That said, roadie types hate being behind a hybrid, so they usually try to get past

I rarely draft unless the draftee has annoyed me in some way...

El Gordo

Rich158 wrote:

El Gordo wrote:

I find when I'm driving that I can save a considerable amount of petrol by sitting 2 feet off the car in-front. What's the problem? We're all going the same way aren't we? :roll:

I hate drafters - it's not a race, there's traffic around and the limpet has no idea how I'm going to behave. I'll either crank up the pace to drop them, stop pedalling until they overtake or, as in the case of a really persistent free-loader a couple of weeks ago, tell him to get the f' off my wheel.

Or you could ride in a responsible manner that's not likely to cause an accident and ask them politely not to draft you. You can either be a gent or a complete fool about it, the choice is yours

To be fair, the only drafter I've ever told to f-off was a guy who'd wordlessly drafted me into a decent headwind for a couple of miles and nearly stacked into me when I had to brake and move out when someone stepped out in front of me. I'd indicated several times that I wanted him to come past but he wouldn't budge. I'm normally quite a polite person - honest.

I'm quite comfortable with drafters on a club run but then I know the guys involved and am generally on open roads. It's just complete strangers doing it on busy roads I'm not keen on. It's commuting, not a race.

DonDaddyD

Yeterday I drafted a girl on a hybrid that looked liked it weighed the same as my car.

I drafted her unashamedly from Kennington (just after Elephant and Castle) to Balham.

She was holding a solid and complete 20mph. I was in a group of three roadies (well one single speed) who were mostly working together to defeat the wind when she first came past she was drafting another roadie going at speed.

It didn't seem real.

notsoblue

DonDaddyD wrote:

Yeterday I drafted a girl on a hybrid that looked liked it weighed the same as my car.

I drafted her unashamedly from Kennington (just after Elephant and Castle) to Balham.

She was holding a solid and complete 20mph. I was in a group of three roadies (well one single speed) who were mostly working together to defeat the wind when she first came past she was drafting another roadie going at speed.

It didn't seem real.

You were in a group of three roadies and were overtaken by a girl on a Hybrid at 20mph?

FOR SHAME!

Rich158

carrefourdel\'arbre wrote:

people who turn themselves inside out and take incredible risks just to draft someone for a bit without actually being aware of what is going on around them. If I someone does something silly, or rude, near me I politely explain what they are doing wrong, what they should be doing instead (and why). This can sometimes be difficult but hey ho.

The issue of taking risks is an interesting one, I've been on both side of this in the past. The first time I was following a similarly quick roadie through Blackfen and on approaching the roundabouts by the Danson interchange he went into sprint mode, I duly followed only to realise at the very last minute that he was going for a gap that wasn't on. He made it and I had a very twitchy moment sliding towards the traffic on the roundabout hoping to god I could stop in time or find another gap. Lesson learnt and I now never take any risks or go for gaps when someone's following me, which brings me on to the second time, riding back from Hogg Hill with a club mate we were approaching a set of lights on amber at speed, knowing the junction I decided to stop only to hear a clatter behind me as my mate had decided to sprint for the lights, realised I was stopping and hit the brakes hard. Lesson number two, always assume the rider in front will stop for red lights even if it means getting dropped for a bit. The chase back on will do you good anyway.

Clever Pun

Rich are you really the best person to be talking about taking risks?

Rich158

Clever Pun wrote:

Rich are you really the best person to be talking about taking risks?

I don't know what you mean Anyway it's all about acceptable risk, in my book anything slightly better than 50/50 goes, it certainly sharpens up the sprint a bit when you absolutely HAVE to make the gap

Clever Pun

Rich158 wrote:

Clever Pun wrote:

Rich are you really the best person to be talking about taking risks?

I don't know what you mean Anyway it's all about acceptable risk, in my book anything slightly better than 50/50 goes, it certainly sharpens up the sprint a bit when you absolutely HAVE to make the gap

like this you mean
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nWTO_BJgkY&feature=player_embedded
not on a bike... but you know