Vector Power Monitoring

symo

Any one else disappointed that MetriGear's (now part of Garmin) pedal power meter is likely to be about £1500 here in the UK? I was really hyped on this product when MetriGear first announced it but now it looks overly expensive compared to the low costs they were promising, also being LOOK Keo and not Shimano or Speedplay is also annoying. I really would have bought this if it were under £800 but there is no way I can justify that sort of pricing.

incog24

US$1500 should work out a bit less shouldn't it? And judging by the way garmins gps units are usually available a decent amount below RRP it could be a fairly reasonable price...

symo

My experience is that the price usually translates with a flick of the £to$ sign.
So it could be under a grand? Still Look Keo urgh

I am the god of hell fire

Ive been waiting for this to arrive as well but as you say am disappointed with the obvious assumption that dollars will be a straight conversion to pounds

On the other hand if Garmin do corner a decent proportion of the market with what looks like a cracking product then I wonder how Quarq will compete and whether or not there will be some downward pressure on price

Oh and I rode a borrowed bike on Look pedals last week - urghhhh!!!

jibberjim

UK List price is 1149

symo

I really can afford that then. Brilliant.

Great opportunity missed. Rosette strain gauges bought in bulk are £40 so assuming they are using 4 rosettes (I really hope they have as the errors on gauges mounted in pairs per gauge are worse than rosettes) per pedal thats £160. Pedal axle to stick them to £50 per pair? (Again assuming bulk pricing) and then the electronics, so custom chip to read results, compare, average and then transmit to head unit £100. So R&D on top £600 to recoup (assuming they sell 5000 of them) I am still only up to £910 and I don;t have Garmin buying power.

amaferanga

Price is based on what Garmin think people are prepared to pay so it should come as no surprise that it's over a grand - plenty of people will shell out that kind of money without a second thought.

StageWinner

FYI - they aren't Look pedals. They are Look compatible made by Exustar.

dawebbo

@symo clearly you didn't pass your economics exams.

symo

dawebbo wrote:

@symo clearly you didn't pass your economics exams.

Yeah, I was to busy doing real maths and science than hindsight based speculation courses. I just don't see the justification of it being over a grand based on thumb in the calcs and without Garmins bulk buying doscount factored in either.

Like I said, disappointed is all.

andy_wrx

amaferanga wrote:

Price is based on what Garmin think people are prepared to pay so it should come as no surprise that it's over a grand - plenty of people will shell out that kind of money without a second thought.

Quite. Price is what they can sell it for

It's not a cost-plus pricing model, the only link to cost will have been to ensure they can make sufficient margin, if they couldn't they wouldn't be selling them, but as to whether they're making 20% margin, 200% margin or 2000%...

twotyred

Agree its disappointing as their intention was to allegedly widen the market for power measurement. The new Powertap Pro hub which will allegedly sell for $500 lower than the previous version is starting to look very good in comparison although now that Cyclops have seen Garmin's pricing on the Vector they may be having a change of mind.

liversedge

I'm quite surprised at the negative comments around the Vectors. Over on the wattage group lots of folks are moaning about damage from a crash.

When all the power meters are priced between a grand and two grand this is at the low end of the scale. And lets face it, the PM market isn't huge right now (granted a lower price point /might/ open it up to more people, but I'm sceptical of even that).

The versatility and weight benefits are pretty compelling - TT, Road, Trainer, juniors/kids can use them (or at least borrow them), works on a Tandem, fits in luggage.

I'm not in the market for a PM, but assuming these are accurate then they are really compelling .. why would you go for say a PT instead? that seems a more limited option.

Just my 2c.
Mark

avoidingmyphd

liversedge wrote:

a lower price point /might/ open it up to more people, but I'm sceptical of even that

have you considered starting an economics club with symo?

liversedge

avoidingmyphd wrote:

liversedge wrote:

a lower price point /might/ open it up to more people, but I'm sceptical of even that

have you considered starting an economics club with symo?

Sunk costs and uncertain demand. Perhaps you can provide some evidence you know any better, rather than resorting to ad hom.

avoidingmyphd

liversedge wrote:

avoidingmyphd wrote:

liversedge wrote:

a lower price point /might/ open it up to more people, but I'm sceptical of even that

have you considered starting an economics club with symo?

Sunk costs and uncertain demand. Perhaps you can provide some evidence you know any better, rather than resorting to ad hom.

Sunk costs are irrelevant (to my post, not to Garmin's pricing decisions).
Evidence of demand: Me. I won't buy one at the announced price but if they were £500 I would buy one. (this doesn't mean there is a case for Garmin to lower the price but it does refute your scepticism)
Anyway, do you really think that I am a surprising special case and that no-one else in the world who would pay £500 but not £1500 for a powemeter? That's what you said, and when I was mean about it you tried to defend it.

liversedge

avoidingmyphd wrote:

liversedge wrote:

avoidingmyphd wrote:

liversedge wrote:

a lower price point /might/ open it up to more people, but I'm sceptical of even that

have you considered starting an economics club with symo?

Sunk costs and uncertain demand. Perhaps you can provide some evidence you know any better, rather than resorting to ad hom.

Sunk costs are irrelevant (to my post, not to Garmin's pricing decisions).
Evidence of demand: Me. I won't buy one at the announced price but if they were £500 I would buy one. (this doesn't mean there is a case for Garmin to lower the price but it does refute your scepticism)
Anyway, do you really think that I am a surprising special case and that no-one else in the world who would pay £500 but not £1500 for a powemeter? That's what you said, and when I was mean about it you tried to defend it.

UK List is £1149, I believe. With such small volumes (the PM market is *tiny*) I cannot see £500 recovering their costs in the short term. Having said that, I recall Garmin's margins are quite significant on their headunits, but they are a far more mature product with higher sales volumes.

The key point here is; if they drop from a margin of say 30% on a £1150 RRP, to 1% margin on an £810 price would they see demand increase 30 times for the same return*?

If we move to a margin of 60% and your desired price of £500 being just above cost, they would have to attract 60 times more buyers to make the same return.

Of course we don't know what the costs are, but seeing that Garmin spent $12m during FY 2010 on 2 acquistions (Metrigear and Belanor)** I think it is very fair to assume Metrigear cost them at least $3m. We don't know how many units they might ship either. I would guess the number is closer to tens of thousands rather than hundreds of thousands.

I'm still sceptical.

* assuming operating costs are not affected with increased volumes, just to be friendly.
** Annual report: http://www8.garmin.com/aboutGarmin/invR ... t_10-K.pdf

I am the god of hell fire

I'm not an economist however I wouldnt buy at 1149 but I would without hesitation at 500

And probably 600 too

stoobydale

I wouldnt buy at 1149 but I would without hesitation at 500

Me too. I would buy any type of Pedal, crank or wheel based powermeter for £500.

mankybianchi

This interview with Barry Redmond of Brimm Brothers is interesting and states that it's an incredibly expensive thing to develop.

http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2010/09/inte ... -brim.html

doyler78

avoidingmyphd wrote:

liversedge wrote:

avoidingmyphd wrote:

liversedge wrote:

a lower price point /might/ open it up to more people, but I'm sceptical of even that

have you considered starting an economics club with symo?

Sunk costs and uncertain demand. Perhaps you can provide some evidence you know any better, rather than resorting to ad hom.

Sunk costs are irrelevant (to my post, not to Garmin's pricing decisions).
Evidence of demand: Me. I won't buy one at the announced price but if they were £500 I would buy one. (this doesn't mean there is a case for Garmin to lower the price but it does refute your scepticism)
Anyway, do you really think that I am a surprising special case and that no-one else in the world who would pay £500 but not £1500 for a powemeter? That's what you said, and when I was mean about it you tried to defend it.

And what of the price elasticity of demand?

symo

To be honest this is pretty short sited of Garmin, a Taiwanese company (Bryton) is already trying to score their GPS business, how long before someone in China thinks "Hang on this is merely strain gauges and a cadence computer to work out the power".

At £800 with a shimano/speedplay compatible product this was a no brainer. Now..........

danridesbikes

however,

the RRP of £1195 is likely to be discounted by retailers a month or so after launch, i certainly didnt pay RRP for my Edge 800

and from launch anyone who is friendly with their LBS should easily secure this for under £1k

SteveR_100Milers

andy_wrx wrote:

amaferanga wrote:

Price is based on what Garmin think people are prepared to pay so it should come as no surprise that it's over a grand - plenty of people will shell out that kind of money without a second thought.

Quite. Price is what they can sell it for

It's not a cost-plus pricing model, the only link to cost will have been to ensure they can make sufficient margin, if they couldn't they wouldn't be selling them, but as to whether they're making 20% margin, 200% margin or 2000%...

Still doesn't "justify" the price, I think in common parlance it's called "taking the p155". Even if I could afford them at £1150 or so, I would not buy them, simply because the cost of the technology is clearly not so high that eventually (hopefully) market pressure and the chase for sales volume will bring the prices down. If they don't, well PT it is then.

Slimbods

symo wrote:

I really can afford that then. Brilliant.

Great opportunity missed. Rosette strain gauges bought in bulk are £40 so assuming they are using 4 rosettes (I really hope they have as the errors on gauges mounted in pairs per gauge are worse than rosettes) per pedal thats £160. Pedal axle to stick them to £50 per pair? (Again assuming bulk pricing) and then the electronics, so custom chip to read results, compare, average and then transmit to head unit £100. So R&D on top £600 to recoup (assuming they sell 5000 of them) I am still only up to £910 and I don;t have Garmin buying power.

Brilliant, you have it all figured out, so make your own for £160 and you're sorted!

Cost isn't based on price of production, it's based on the maximum they can get while still having a market. If people are quite happily paying £1500 for powertaps and there's no alternative, these things will be priced high.

Until there's a cheaper alternative, they'll milk it.

This is early adopter stuff still. I'm sure powermeters will become more 'normal' soon and they price will come down when there's more devices out there.

jibberjim

Slimbods wrote:

Cost isn't based on price of production, it's based on the maximum they can get while still having a market. If people are quite happily paying £1500 for powertaps and there's no alternative, these things will be priced high.

I don't really understand statements like the above. 1500quid is not the price of a powertap wheel - unless you are buying an expensive wheelset anyway (Zipp 404 PT wheelset are only a little more) People are paying 600-800 quid for a powertap.

The problem with the Garmin price, is that it's too expensive to increase the market, so all they're doing is selling into people who'll already buy power devices, and are pitching the price in the middle, more expensive than PowerTap or Power2max, about the same as Quarq and SRM. (slightly cheaper actually but you'll need a crankset which is more expensive than the pedals you'll not need)

So what's it selling on if it's not price? Portability - not really swapping between bikes the crankset or wheel are just as versatile. Accuracy - no more claimed accuracy and it's unproven - in any case you don't really need more accuracy. Travelability - tiny market, most people travel with their whole bike. So all that's really there is the "L/R power..." which is not a very persuasive argument to me. Power shape might be interesting, but that's not on offer.

so as an investor in Garmin I'd be questioning the purchase of Metrigear now, but if they could've competed on cost then they could've expanded the market and it would've made more sense.

I think Mark is underestimating the size of the Power Market, it's tiny because of cost, not because of interest.

avoidingmyphd

jibberjim wrote:

Slimbods wrote:

So what's it selling on if it's not price? Portability - not really swapping between bikes the crankset or wheel are just as versatile.

I know you're right in terms of time jim, but there's clearly a perception that pedals are easier to change than cranks. And it isn't a crazy perception either. Lots of riders change pedals reasonably often but have never changed a crank.
You're still right that it's at beat a pretty flimsy way of distinguishing the metrigear in the marketplace.

Slimbods

jibberjim wrote:

I don't really understand statements like the above. 1500quid is not the price of a powertap wheel - unless you are buying an expensive wheelset anyway (Zipp 404 PT wheelset are only a little more) People are paying 600-800 quid for a powertap.

700 quid for the hub only, then you've got to add a few hundred for even an entry level rear wheel.

The problem with the Garmin price, is that it's too expensive to increase the market, so all they're doing is selling into people who'll already buy power devices, and are pitching the price in the middle, more expensive than PowerTap or Power2max, about the same as Quarq and SRM.

They don't care about the size of the market, just the value. Garmin know the market, they know how many HRM's they sell for 50 quid, and they know how many Garmin 700's they sell to people who are serious about training. Power meters aren't ever going to be properly mainstream, it's an enthusiasts product and it's accordingly going to be priced at a premium.

So what's it selling on if it's not price? Portability - not really swapping between bikes the crankset or wheel are just as versatile.

Don't agree at all, pedals would be far more flexible. I don't have to worry about what kind of wheel i've put the power tap hub on, is it capag or shimano/sram, is it a disc, a deep wheel, a light wheel for a climby race, and I deffo don't want my nice wheels on the turbo.... Same with the crank, I've a faff changing it, changing chainrings, particularly between a road an tt bike.

Pedals are pedals.

jibberjim

Slimbods wrote:

jibberjim wrote:

I don't really understand statements like the above. 1500quid is not the price of a powertap wheel - unless you are buying an expensive wheelset anyway (Zipp 404 PT wheelset are only a little more) People are paying 600-800 quid for a powertap.

700 quid for the hub only, then you've got to add a few hundred for even an entry level rear wheel.

http://www.cyclepowermeters.com/cycleop ... p-21-c.asp Elite+ Wheel only 600quid, and there's plenty of other examples - the list price of the hub isn't even 700. And an entry level rear wheel is certainly not "a few hundred" in anycase. And that's before the announced price reductions in the 2012 series which are the products the vector is actually up against.

SteveR_100Milers

Agree with your points Jim, plus limiting the pedals to Look only is a major disadvantage also to non Look users. The price would need to be under £500 for me to consider it over a PT. Changing a wheel is a doddle and the only change I might make is to use a disc cover instead of a carbon disc on the TT bike, even then I don't *have* to use power on my TT bike. You do have to use the keo pedal however. Brave move by Garmin to start so high on the price demand flight path, danger is it will stall and crash.

Slimbods

jibberjim wrote:

http://www.cyclepowermeters.com/cycleop ... p-21-c.asp Elite+ Wheel only 600quid, and there's plenty of other examples - the list price of the hub isn't even 700. And an entry level rear wheel is certainly not "a few hundred" in anycase. And that's before the announced price reductions in the 2012 series which are the products the vector is actually up against.

Great, comparing a sale item with RRP.

Doesn't change the fact that this is unique. You can't buy another pedal based system yet, it's brand new and this is early adopter pricing.Without knowing the underlying financials you can't tell if it's a mistake, but looking at other cutting edge products in and out of cycling there's usually enough early adopters prepared to pay the premium to make it pay off without having to risk big manufacturing runs for a larger scale production.

Garmin know how to launch products, they do a lot of it.