Etape Cymru ?

COLPER

My wife crashed at one of the junctions she breaked and the bike just slid from under her
difficult decents, mud smeared lanes,,,lots of spills. but not sure if this was on a miss marked route!
Still really enjoyed it and we both hope to be back for next years event.
The organisers want these events to work they put a lot of hard work into trying to give us the best day possible. constructive comments will only help improve future events
ps
any chance that some of those hills will have eroded by then?

iantaylor2uk

skinsey wrote:

My thoughts summarised here:

http://monmarduman.blogspot.com/2011/10 ... tions.html

To summarise, I wasn't happy, and Ron - you were bang on with your assessment/predictions; wish I'd looked at the route a bit more carefully before entering.

Good blog - I live close to the route (up in Chester) and regularly go over to the Minera area. I did wonder how World's End would copy with 1600 cyclists since it is pretty narrow and I knew the descent to Minera with the tight bend at the bottom would be dodgy to say the least - for those who don't know the area there definitely needed to be more warning signs on some of the dangerous bits.
Will be interested to see how many enter next year (they say it will be Sept 9th 2012)

plumpy

The results are now up and there were 977 riders. I enjoyed the route, and I thought the roads coped with the numbers on the day; but I agree with the comments others have made, that they would barely have coped with 1,600 riders, and 3,500 would have been absolutely ridiculous.

However, I don't agree about warning signs + marshalls on every steep bit or muddy corner. Closed roads or not, riding safely in the conditions in which you find yourself is up to you. On the Etape du Dales, Fred Whitton, Le Terrier, Dragon Ride or whatever, you're going to find yourself on narrow steep roads which may have mud or gravel on them, sheep crossing them, etc. Of course accidents happen and I am completely sympathetic to anyone who misjudges a corner, hits a sheep, slips on gravel, and so on, done it myself, but I don't think you can blame the organisers. It quite literally "comes with the territory".

Brakeless

plumpy wrote:

The results are now up and there were 977 riders. I enjoyed the route, and I thought the roads coped with the numbers on the day; but I agree with the comments others have made, that they would barely have coped with 1,600 riders, and 3,500 would have been absolutely ridiculous.

However, I don't agree about warning signs + marshalls on every steep bit or muddy corner. Closed roads or not, riding safely in the conditions in which you find yourself is up to you. On the Etape du Dales, Fred Whitton, Le Terrier, Dragon Ride or whatever, you're going to find yourself on narrow steep roads which may have mud or gravel on them, sheep crossing them, etc. Of course accidents happen and I am completely sympathetic to anyone who misjudges a corner, hits a sheep, slips on gravel, and so on, done it myself, but I don't think you can blame the organisers. It quite literally "comes with the territory".

Part of the first section of the course was on tiny muddy lanes were it was so crowded it was almost impossible to see what was on the road in front of you. It shouldn't 'come with the territory 'in this sort of event. Having narrow, muddy roads after about 30 miles and a couple of hills once all the riders have spread out is fine but who ever thought it would be a good idea to have a 'peleton' of a thousand riders going down those early roads needs thier head examining.

Ron Stuart

plumpy wrote:

The results are now up and there were 977 riders. I enjoyed the route, and I thought the roads coped with the numbers on the day; but I agree with the comments others have made, that they would barely have coped with 1,600 riders, and 3,500 would have been absolutely ridiculous.

However, I don't agree about warning signs + marshalls on every steep bit or muddy corner. Closed roads or not, riding safely in the conditions in which you find yourself is up to you. On the Etape du Dales, Fred Whitton, Le Terrier, Dragon Ride or whatever, you're going to find yourself on narrow steep roads which may have mud or gravel on them, sheep crossing them, etc. Of course accidents happen and I am completely sympathetic to anyone who misjudges a corner, hits a sheep, slips on gravel, and so on, done it myself, but I don't think you can blame the organisers. It quite literally "comes with the territory".

You can and should as organizers be limiting the potential risk to riders by as far as is possible by choosing routes that more suitable for the maximum number of riders anticipated. My opinion is that the route was more dictated by the area available to be set as having closed roads than the suitability of the roads chosen for the numbers of riders.

"comes with the territory" couldn't have put better.

Next time try Bala for a start it is a much smaller population centre (less risk of dross) and in September a much smaller risk of traffic on the course, plus some great climbs on better roads.

billysan

My thoughts:

The whole day just screamed 'cheap' to me. Everyone seems to be jumping on the Sportive bandwaggon at the monet in search of a quick buck. I think the organisers of this event saw $$$ and didnt plan / research something of this scale nearly enough or budget anywhere near enough on logistics.

The signage wasnt great, I think we all probably took a wrong turn somewhere. I managed an extra 3.5 miles of pointless detours.

The Marshals were poor at best. I dont know where they were all drafted in from, but probably half didnt bother sticking an arm up to show direction till right at the last second, by which time you'd braked and lost all your momentum. Thats if the junction was marshalled at all. There were junctions that arguable required one but absent any from about 30 miles right to th end.

The lack of actual road closures was inexcusable. After the 3rd 4x4 pushing past me within the first 30 miles on singletrack roads I was fuming. Then when on the bigger roads there was no signage or demarkation as to what was closed and what wsnt.
I stopped and drained down on some motorbike copper and he really couldnt give a monkeys!

The website stated a 'full road closure for those maintaining a 12mph average'.
In my view this was in fact a breech in trade descriptions!!

The mass start was silly too. Due to waiting for friends at the start we didnt cross the line for almost 10 minutes. The traffic didnt really start to clear for 10 miles afterwards. This makes a mockery of the timings in my view.


Away from the organisers, I found it quite remarkable how many people were swerving all over the road on the steaper climbs making it very dificult to get past. Common courtesy seemed to have escaped a great number of people, who seemed to be oblivious that there were quicker riders behind trying to overtake.

I had no problem with any of the feed stations so cannot comment there. I thought they were quite well run and stocked if anything! The homemade cakes were lovely thankyou.


However

The area was stunning. That first decent along the side of the hill with the view to the left was breathtaking.

I thought the choice of roads was about perfect. You dont go to a sportive in North Wales and expect mirror smooth perfect roads like you'd get in Saudi Arabia! Did anyone complaining about the road actually take a minute to look at the route beforehand on a map?
The mix of unclassified lanes and A roads was fine. In my mind road biking requires bike handling skill and road reading ability just as mountain biking does for example. You adjust your speed and line according to your judgement of the road ahead.

If that involves mud gravel and leaves, fine! If it looks slippery, or you cant tell what is round the next corner, slow down! Closed road does not give free license to be a care free kamakaze.

Every rider should realise that the they carry a pretty large level of liability for their own actions. The organiser cannot be held to accound for someones poor judgement of road surface. (As a thought - the Pro's ride much worse in Belgium!!)


There were lots of positives to the day too:

The locals on the whole were awesome! For any reading on here:

Thankyou for coming out to the support and shouts of encouragement guys! It really helped Sorry if I didnt ackknowledge everyone, I tried to say thanks to most, but missed a few when concentrating on what direction I was supposed to be going.

I had no problem with any of the feed stations so cannot comment there. I thought they were quite well run and stocked if anything! The homemade cakes were lovely thankyou.

I still came away smiling having had a fantastic days riding. Some of those roads would take years to learn and link together if one were to move to the area. The Cycling Plus write up had it about right saying that the participants were treated to some local inside knowledge of good roads.

I think the organisers are going to get a fairly huge dollop of feedback. Wrexham Council would be stupid not to pay attention to this too, and I think if there was any chance of it happening next year certain measures would have to be taken to improve the events main failings this year.

I'd probably do it again all things given.

Cleat Eastwood

I'm sure i read that there was a ctc provision that sportives had to have a major climb in the first few miles to sort out the strong from the weak as it were.

DaveMoss

Marshals at Junctions ?

Personally I don't think ANY marshals are a requirement on a sportive except for the start finish and feed areas . (though when organising I would try to provide them where a missed turn could result in going way off course). In a sportive you should have some idea of where your meant to be going and where to look for direction signs, and definitely look out for yourself at a give way.

The problem with marshals at give way junction is that if they get it wrong, they could be encouraging you to come out at speed in front of a car or lorry. On one event this nearly happened to me, I thought the marshal was waving me out so I stopped braking and started to speed up, in fact he was waving on a car on the major road, fortunately I realised just in time. It would have been much safer without the marshal. When instructing marshals at a junction I say "stop the cyclists if traffic is approaching, otherwise do nothing and let the cyclists make their own decision, never wave on the cyclists".

petemadoc

DaveMoss wrote:

Marshals at Junctions ?

Personally I don't think ANY marshals are a requirement on a sportive except for the start finish and feed areas . (though when organising I would try to provide them where a missed turn could result in going way off course). In a sportive you should have some idea of where your meant to be going and where to look for direction signs, and definitely look out for yourself at a give way.

The problem with marshals at give way junction is that if they get it wrong, they could be encouraging you to come out at speed in front of a car or lorry. On one event this nearly happened to me, I thought the marshal was waving me out so I stopped braking and started to speed up, in fact he was waving on a car on the major road, fortunately I realised just in time. It would have been much safer without the marshal. When instructing marshals at a junction I say "stop the cyclists if traffic is approaching, otherwise do nothing and let the cyclists make their own decision, never wave on the cyclists".

Er, this was meant to be a closed road sportive. Marshals were there to stop cars entering the route and to direct cyclists.

plumpy

If you're upset by a bit of mud and crowding in the first few miles, don't come up and do the Etape du Dales - narrow lanes, liberally covered with cow slurry and with plenty of farm traffic, from Grassington all the way up Wharfedale, and no big climb to thin the field until Fleet Moss at about 16 miles - or the Fred Whitton - narrow, greasy, leafy lanes for the first section from Coniston to Ambleside - to name just two.

(You can't in my view blame the organiser for numpties either, but like Billysan I was boggled by the people who thought it was ok to weave on climbs...and the ones who dismounted and then walked side by side to chat rather than single file on the left...)

My complaints are that I paid for closed roads and they weren't; and I paid for feed stops and didn't get fed!

don simon

but like Billysan I was boggled by the people who thought it was ok to weave on climbs...and the ones who dismounted and then walked side by side to chat rather than single file on the left...)

With all due respect, what was the rush? Wasn't it more of a mass-bimble than competitive?

Brakeless

plumpy wrote:

If you're upset by a bit of mud and crowding in the first few miles, don't come up and do the Etape du Dales - narrow lanes, liberally covered with cow slurry and with plenty of farm traffic, from Grassington all the way up Wharfedale, and no big climb to thin the field until Fleet Moss at about 16 miles - or the Fred Whitton - narrow, greasy, leafy lanes for the first section from Coniston to Ambleside - to name just two.

(You can't in my view blame the organiser for numpties either, but like Billysan I was boggled by the people who thought it was ok to weave on climbs...and the ones who dismounted and then walked side by side to chat rather than single file on the left...)

My complaints are that I paid for closed roads and they weren't; and I paid for feed stops and didn't get fed!

Hi Plumpy

I've done the Fred Whitton twice and it was not crowded at all as the start was staggered. If you sent all the 1500 Fred Whitton entrants off together there would be stop start all the way up Hawks head Hill which comes about a mile after the start and thins things out straight away. A mass start event has to be done differently at the start to a staggered start event.

billysan

don simon wrote:

With all due respect, what was the rush? Wasn't it more of a mass-bimble than competitive?

No rush necessarily, I just wanted to ride at my own pace. You must appreciate that it is often harder to ride slower than at a pace that allows you to keep a good rythm going.

If you want a mass bimble - go and enter a Skyride!

They provided timing chips, and even a hill climb competition mid route, therefore suddenly making it competative. Therefore why should I not 'rush'? What you may perceive as rushing may be someone else's pace when on a gentle recovery ride!

I accept that a few will have entered with the sole aim of completing the course regardless of time. To think that most are not trying jolly hard to achieve a good time, and therefore think it is acceptable to block their path even after a polite 'excuse me' is pretty out of order in my opinion.

With all due respect of course.

plumpy

Brakeless wrote:

I've done the Fred Whitton twice and it was not crowded at all as the start was staggered. If you sent all the 1500 Fred Whitton entrants off together there would be stop start all the way up Hawkshead Hill which comes about a mile after the start and thins things out straight away. A mass start event has to be done differently at the start to a staggered start event.

Yes fair point Brakeless and I agree. Personally I did think that the roads coped with 977 riders even with a massed start, but as I said above, only just.

@Don Simon - So if someone wants to go faster than you, but you can get in their way, you should? You don't own a touring caravan do you? With all due respect.

petemadoc

Playing devil's advocate here but

If you wanted to get a storming time or try and "win" the Etape Cymru then you needed to be near the front of the "race" before the first big climbs which were Garth and worlds end, both are very steep and pretty narrow too. I believe with a bit of planning and thought you could easily get to the front of the group before these climbs. You could have made an effort to be at the start line a few minutes before it got crowded and even if you weren't there was a few miles before the climbs started and most people were doing about 15mph so with a bit of polite shouting it would have been easy enough to get through.

I think the only justified complaints about this event are the empty feed stations for the slower riders, the road closures that weren't ready for faster riders and the route change near then end due to missing signs. Complaints about mud, narrow roads and not being able to pass people . . . if you want to race then enter a race, this is a mildy competitive sportive.

Generally the riders I encountered were friendly and nice but there were one or two rude ones who were trying to get through the bunch. One shouted at some guy who fell over in front of him on a steep climb and another started swearing because someone didn't move out of his way quickly enough. Me thinks some people need to chill out and enjoy the ride 8)

don simon

@Don Simon - So if someone wants to go faster than you, but you can get in their way, you should? You don't own a touring caravan do you? With all due respect.

No I don't own a touring caravan, but neither would I complain if I got stuck behind one. You respect other riders, you pass them when it's safe and nothing more. They have a right to enjoy and go at their own pace too. It's funny that in all my experience in races it's never the good riders that complain and from what you're saying I understand that you too were weaving and didn't have the ability to steer the bike past the slower riders, no?

notsoblue

Its possible to bimble round a sportive and still be respectful of people who want to pass you. Just keep an ear out, be aware of whats behind you and move over if necessary. Also, if you want to pass a group of slower riders theres no harm in a polite "on your right" to announce your presence.

Sportives are mixed ability, people should accept that.

petemadoc

pics up

http://sportivephoto.thirdlight.com/vie ... 969&home=1

plumpy

Don Simon: I wasn't rushing, I wasn't weaving myself, I wasn't trying to pass unsafely, I respect other riders and whatever pace they want to ride at. I didn't give any grounds for you to come to any of those conclusions. I may be a "bimbler" who lacks your extensive racing experience, but I am entitled to my view that weaving across a climb, or walking two or more abreast up a narrow crowded climb, is inconsiderate. Which is all I said.

I did wonder if you were going to make it clear on your website that you regard the Etape Cymru as a "mass-bimble" - so that those to whom you are trying to flog photos can see the high regard in which you hold their efforts?

don simon

I did wonder if you were going to make it clear on your website that you regard the Etape Cymru as a "mass-bimble" - so that those to whom you are trying to flog photos can see the high regard in which you hold their efforts?

That's actually quite funny, why do you think that bimbling is negative? Bimbling is good, racing is good, getting frustrated when a caravan is slowing you down is not good. I don't see what that has to do with my photographs either. But it is your opinion, which of course, you're entitled to. MUAK.

cwm

PeteMadoc wrote:

pics up

http://sportivephoto.thirdlight.com/vie ... 969&home=1

i defo look in pain lol

865 :roll:

deadhead1971

This was my first ever sportive, so I wasn't really sure what to expect.
I wrote a blog about my experience here:
http://www.scarletfire.co.uk/2011/10/i-gave-my-sportive-virginity-to-etape-cymru/

petemadoc

deadhead1971 wrote:

This was my first ever sportive, so I wasn't really sure what to expect.
I wrote a blog about my experience here:
http://www.scarletfire.co.uk/2011/10/i-gave-my-sportive-virginity-to-etape-cymru/

Nice write up that mate. Welcome to the forum

deadhead1971

Thanks Pete
I've got the bug now, and will entering as many sportives as I can afford to get to next year!

colinsmith123

deadhead1971

If you were to join your local bike club you'd be able to ride a sportive for free every weekend. Give it a try, find out where your local club, and go for a ride. if you can get around those climbs you won't have too many problems riding with a club.

Brakeless

colinsmith123 wrote:

deadhead1971

If you were to join your local bike club you'd be able to ride a sportive for free every weekend. Give it a try, find out where your local club, and go for a ride. if you can get around those climbs you won't have too many problems riding with a club.

So tell me a club that does 100mile rides in North Wales, South Wales, The Lake District, Kent, The South Downs, The Chilterns and Cambridgeshire because I've ridden sportives in all these places this year.

And yes I do belong to a club that does great clubruns but sportives they are not.

dead sheep

Serious allegations have been expressed in this thread over the organiser's failure to deliver the goods promised at the point of sale.

Riders with a grievance are encouraged to contact the Trading Standards Department for Denbighshire Council.

http://www.denbighshire.gov.uk/en-gb/DNAP-74EECR

hatone

I've just added my opinion in the article's comment box. Here is what I had to say:

''I have to agree with the author of this article. The event was shockingly bad, and if anything, incredibly dangerous.

Towards the end of the event I heard of a serious accident and many near misses, including myself nearly colliding head on with a car on the wrong side of the road. The marshalling was sparse and many of them were unable to speak English and had no idea what mile marker they were standing at.

A group of riders, including myself got lost on numerous occasions and had to rely on another rider's GPS and the signage was poor at best. Some of the riders timing chips failed to work or went missing - can't imagine how pi$$sed off they must have been given the other issues that happened.

I'm afraid to say next year's 2012 Etape Cymru will suffer as a result even if they try put it right. One bad experience is all it takes and the organisers clearly and categorically failed to properly prepare, liaise with the local community and council in respect to road closures and holding such a highly publicised event involving thousands of riders.

We were mis-sold and misled''

Rodrego Hernandez

hatone wrote:

I've just added my opinion in the article's comment box. Here is what I had to say:

''I have to agree with the author of this article. The event was shockingly bad, and if anything, incredibly dangerous.

Towards the end of the event I heard of a serious accident and many near misses, including myself nearly colliding head on with a car on the wrong side of the road. The marshalling was sparse and many of them were unable to speak English and had no idea what mile marker they were standing at.

A group of riders, including myself got lost on numerous occasions and had to rely on another rider's GPS and the signage was poor at best. Some of the riders timing chips failed to work or went missing - can't imagine how pi$$sed off they must have been given the other issues that happened.

I'm afraid to say next year's 2012 Etape Cymru will suffer as a result even if they try put it right. One bad experience is all it takes and the organisers clearly and categorically failed to properly prepare, liaise with the local community and council in respect to road closures and holding such a highly publicised event involving thousands of riders.

We were mis-sold and misled''

'Heard of' - did this or didn't this happen?

Sounds like you were unprepared with no route map and were riding recklessly if you nearly hit a car.

Feedback like this just makes you sound bitter with the day and is all avoidable by being properly prepared. The organisers obviously have a lots to learn but then so do the people riding these events.

prawny

Rodrego Hernandez wrote:

hatone wrote:

I've just added my opinion in the article's comment box. Here is what I had to say:

''I have to agree with the author of this article. The event was shockingly bad, and if anything, incredibly dangerous.

Towards the end of the event I heard of a serious accident and many near misses, including myself nearly colliding head on with a car on the wrong side of the road. The marshalling was sparse and many of them were unable to speak English and had no idea what mile marker they were standing at.

A group of riders, including myself got lost on numerous occasions and had to rely on another rider's GPS and the signage was poor at best. Some of the riders timing chips failed to work or went missing - can't imagine how pi$$sed off they must have been given the other issues that happened.

I'm afraid to say next year's 2012 Etape Cymru will suffer as a result even if they try put it right. One bad experience is all it takes and the organisers clearly and categorically failed to properly prepare, liaise with the local community and council in respect to road closures and holding such a highly publicised event involving thousands of riders.

We were mis-sold and misled''

'Heard of' - did this or didn't this happen?

Sounds like you were unprepared with no route map and were riding recklessly if you nearly hit a car.


Feedback like this just makes you sound bitter with the day and is all avoidable by being properly prepared. The organisers obviously have a lots to learn but then so do the people riding these events.

To be fait to the guy if I'd paid for closed roads I'd expect not to need a map or have to avoid cars.
On a £12.50 evans sportive I'd agree with you but at £65 customers should expect more.