Time for the Plastic Bullets?

pst88

The Guardian wrote:

The police are supposed to fire at the individual's legs but 17 individuals...have been killed since 1969 with rubber and latterly plastic bullets.

Really, my heart's bleeding. How about if you don't want to get shot by plastic bullets don't turn up at a riot and start acting like a dick.

walkingbootweather

The problem was perceptively discussed by Not the Nine O'clock News.

Might be 30 years old but well worth a look. I think you'll agree they have hit upon the solution

symo

pst88 wrote:

The Guardian wrote:

The police are supposed to fire at the individual's legs but 17 individuals...have been killed since 1969 with rubber and latterly plastic bullets.

Really, my heart's bleeding. How about if you don't want to get shot by plastic bullets don't turn up at a riot and start acting like a dick.

Kind of like don't go waving loaded fire arms at Police with guns really isn't it? Which started this in the first place.

I am not advocating the use of live ammo, and the comments from Orde made me laugh, the RUC at the time were not adverse to aiming the baton rounds so that they bounced at head height. He needed a better disciplined and more
What we saw was systematic looting organised over the internet. Moving them on would have done nothing except allow them to locate another venue via bb messenger. We also saw that these people were threatening the general public, this was not a riot about a defined issue but about a group of tmats who do not believe in respect for other people or their property.

Clever Pun

Is anyone actually taking this thread remotely seriously?

dodgerdog

As someone who defends (literally) the democratic principles of this country there are a few issues. I have been in a baseline (thankfully only in training situations) and have been to some of those horrible places you see outside of UK defending these rights before folks think of painting me as some extremist reflect on the perspective that affords.

The use of Baton Rounds, tear gas and water cannon are all escalatory measures which place us on the path to the rioting equivalent of Mutually Assured Destruction. Yes we need a much more overt and direct policing approach to this situation. The Police need to retain a highly reactive and manoeuvrable force to counter the build up of youth, deter them from arranging alternate meets and in the end game placing such a physical presence as to deter social disorder by not defending a baseline but active targeting and use of cut-offs and snatch squads.

Behind this though is the increasing deconstruction of the legal system and deterrence element of prison as an institution of punishment. (essentially the madness of the appeal and appeasement philosophy that runs through the liberal core and is fundamental to the current view of the legal system). The essential principle is that Prison as the hard stop at the end of the criminal justice system is suppose to deter criminal behaviour, at the moment it is seeking to not provide a penal detention capability but is for many aimed at rehabilitation. Rights come with responsibilities, fail to live up to your responsibilities and lose your rights (ie those in prison lose them as they have failed to live up to the responsibilities society expects of them).

To be an effective deterrent it needs to have meaningful sentences (ie longer ones) that actually count for what they say they are, discounting of sentences for guilty pleas and 50% remission for good behaviour mean that criminals are serving paltry sentences which have no deterrent effect. The penal system needs to be recalibrated to create that effect, it needs to split sentences in to discrete portions to meet society's needs. I would suggest that the first 1/3 is focussed on hard deterrence and punishment ie - no comforts, minimal privileges and a regime built around imposing control and discipline on inmates, phase 2 is focussed upon starting the rehab path with prisoners through good behaviour earning privileges (phone calls et al on a sliding scale), phase 3 would be focussed on full on rehab and preparing prisoners for return to society. All of this would be within a hard construct whereby misdemeanours see privileges removed and return to phase one if necessary.

Only by society laying out a future such as this will the miscreants we are currently seeing on the streets stop and think is nicking a few pairs of trainers of laptops actually worth the risk of four years locked away with no playstation et al.

sharky1029

I think go for it. But I think the water cannon idea should be stepped up a notch with one of these ...
http://www.shutterstock.com/pic-4908590 ... -fire.html

joelsim

I think that prison should be a deterrant and therefore make it hard. No TVs, no playstations, no fun. Just food and closed doors. And every time someone commits a similar crime upon release you double the sentence.

estampida

the less consumer items they have in prision

the more prision food and penis they will get!

that might teach em'

Jay dubbleU

Police catch them - courts let them walk - fewer fines and community orders - more prison - maybe they would think twice

bails87

When most people go to prison they're eventually released. When they are, I'd rather they were 'safe', socially aware individuals who don't have a massive grudge to bear against society and authority figures. Treating people like animals in prison makes prisoners angry at prison officers, the police and society as a whole. It needs to be a deterrent, obviously, but it needs to rehabilitate too, otherwise it sends people out who are more likely to come back, people who can't function in society but would rather go out all guns blazing than go back to prison.

cycladianpirate

bails87 wrote:

When most people go to prison they're eventually released. When they are, I'd rather they were 'safe', socially aware individuals who don't have a massive grudge to bear against society and authority figures. Treating people like animals in prison makes prisoners angry at prison officers, the police and society as a whole. It needs to be a deterrent, obviously, but it needs to rehabilitate too, otherwise it sends people out who are more likely to come back, people who can't function in society but would rather go out all guns blazing than go back to prison.

There is a rather simple solution to this perceived problem.....

joelsim

I think it's a fact that the softer we treat kids, the worse they are. Many of today's feral youth couldn't give a flying f*ck about anything or anyone. They are well overdue a harsh lesson.

Fireblade96

walkingbootweather wrote:

The problem was perceptively discussed by Not the Nine O'clock News.

Might be 30 years old but well worth a look. I think you'll agree they have hit upon the solution

I'd forgotten about that, but it's still great today !

On a more serious note : I grew up in Norn Iron. Plastic bullets weren't a great success there, I'm not sure they'd be a great success on the mainland. Proactive policing rather than standing by watching, videoing and promising to "come and get you later" might have helped. Prevention rather than punishment, if you will.

As ever, rain will stop play.

bails87

cycladianpirate wrote:

bails87 wrote:

When most people go to prison they're eventually released. When they are, I'd rather they were 'safe', socially aware individuals who don't have a massive grudge to bear against society and authority figures. Treating people like animals in prison makes prisoners angry at prison officers, the police and society as a whole. It needs to be a deterrent, obviously, but it needs to rehabilitate too, otherwise it sends people out who are more likely to come back, people who can't function in society but would rather go out all guns blazing than go back to prison.

There is a rather simple solution to this perceived problem.....

Yes, rehabilitation.

Edit: Unless you're saying that everyone who breaks the law should be executed or imprisoned for life.

notsoblue

bails87 wrote:

When most people go to prison they're eventually released. When they are, I'd rather they were 'safe', socially aware individuals who don't have a massive grudge to bear against society and authority figures. Treating people like animals in prison makes prisoners angry at prison officers, the police and society as a whole. It needs to be a deterrent, obviously, but it needs to rehabilitate too, otherwise it sends people out who are more likely to come back, people who can't function in society but would rather go out all guns blazing than go back to prison.

Well said.

rjsterry

Charlie Brooker has a good suggestion for all those fantasising about just what they'd (or rather they'd ask someone else to) do to those convicted of rioting.

Nice to see the old jokes about prison rape wheeled out - oh my sides. Does it not occur to anyone that just banging kids up for a couple of years with no attempt at rehabilitation will just create young people with an even bigger chip on their shoulder and a few more criminal skills with which to cause more trouble in their release.

bails87

rjsterry
But knees have started jerking already, hopefully they'll be stopped before we end up looking back in a years time and regretting what we do in the next few weeks.

"Drown them in cow sick and burn down their houses"
"Yes, yes, and then set their children on fire, that's what they deserve for stealing a telly!"

Clever Pun

Joelsim wrote:

I think it's a fact that the softer we treat kids, the worse they are. Many of today's feral youth couldn't give a flying f*ck about anything or anyone. They are well overdue a harsh lesson.

There's a well used quote saying something similar from a monk in the 1800's

bails87

Clever Pun wrote:

Joelsim wrote:

I think it's a fact that the softer we treat kids, the worse they are. Many of today's feral youth couldn't give a flying f*ck about anything or anyone. They are well overdue a harsh lesson.

There's a well used quote saying something similar from a monk in the 1800's

There's a quote, allaegedly, from one of the ancient Greek philosophers

The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They contradict their parents, chatter before company and tyrannize their teachers

The origin is unknown (some say Scorates, some say Plato quoted Socrates as saying, some say it was Hesiod), but it seems to have been originally said no more recently than the 8th century BC.

How many people on here were 'youths' during the riots of 1981 and 1985? How would you feel if you were blamed for the riots and said to be in need of a harsh lesson just because you were the same age?

rjsterry

Further thoughts on the negative consequences of the understandable urge to 'bang 'em up'.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/aug/10/uk-riots-bang-em-up-cost

clarkey cat

Terry Christian was on the One Show last night reminiscing about riots in Manchester in the 80s - ooh it were different in my day, they were proper riots; decent, honest riots.

What a div.

walkingbootweather

I'd forgotten what a patronising rag the Guardian was. I especially valued the link to "Young People" as I had no clue what they were.

notsoblue

walkingbootweather wrote:

I'd forgotten what a patronising rag the Guardian was. I especially valued the link to "Young People" as I had no clue what they were.

What else was patronising about the article?

rjsterry

walkingbootweather wrote:

I'd forgotten what a patronising rag the Guardian was. I especially valued the link to "Young People" as I had no clue what they were.

Given that the author of that article has served 20 years of a life sentence, released in 2004, I think he probably knows more about prisons than all of us on here put together.

walkingbootweather

notsoblue wrote:

walkingbootweather wrote:

I'd forgotten what a patronising rag the Guardian was. I especially valued the link to "Young People" as I had no clue what they were.

What else was patronising about the article?

Well how about references to "Wanno", which I take to be the affectionate nickname given to Wandsworth Prison?

rjsterry

walkingbootweather wrote:

notsoblue wrote:

walkingbootweather wrote:

I'd forgotten what a patronising rag the Guardian was. I especially valued the link to "Young People" as I had no clue what they were.

What else was patronising about the article?

Well how about references to "Wanno", which I take to be the affectionate nickname given to Wandsworth Prison?

I'd have thought it was obvious, although I don't know about affectionate given the conditions recently reported there by the prisons inspectorate. The prison radio station is called Radio Wanno. How is that patronising exactly?

notsoblue

walkingbootweather wrote:

notsoblue wrote:

walkingbootweather wrote:

I'd forgotten what a patronising rag the Guardian was. I especially valued the link to "Young People" as I had no clue what they were.

What else was patronising about the article?

Well how about references to "Wanno", which I take to be the affectionate nickname given to Wandsworth Prison?

What about the actual content of the article?

walkingbootweather

For the avoidance of doubt I broadly favour rehabilitation over 'locking up and throwing away the key', however I stand by my assertion that I found this article patronising (and have provided examples).

I can't speak for you guys but am happy to concede that a 20-years-served 'lifer' knows a damn site more about prisons that I do. However for every 'expert opinion' there will be other 'experts' with contrasting views.

According the author’s own statistics there is a 59% (or is it 77%) chance that he will face re-conviction himself – at least that’s the inference. And. if he does end up back inside he’ll no doubt be grateful for support of the liberals amongst us.

Forgive me if I retain sympathies for innocent victims who's lives may be ruined by criminal behaviour. A justice system needs to balance the desire to rehabilitate the perpetrator with wider society’s need to see appropriate punishment. It may well be that restorative justice yields the best results, in which case I’m all for it - just please don't patronise me about it.

rjsterry

Fair enough. I completely agree that society and the offenders need to receive appropriate punishment, and in some cases that should definitely mean prison, particularly those who burnt out the Carpet Right store in Tottenham, and Reeves in Croydon (to give a couple of examples). The piece was posted more in reaction to the more vivd revenge fantasists who were posting earlier.

mapleflot

Does this level of retribution apply to Bullingdon Club members when they smash up restaurants? After all, can you imagine if they got into positions of responsibility? Not that they even want to work for a living. :roll: