Voeckler

mididoctors

Rick Chasey wrote:

I'm not talking Voeckler. I'm talking Andy.

I doubt think he'd have ridden the Alp any better relative to his rivals had he stayed with Evans before or not.

yeah you may be right (or wrong)


my point is who knew that then at that moment on the road? or more importantly calculated on that outcome at that time?

thats why those two stages were so good because people had to calculate a number of variables in a way we haven't seen for yrs and try and guess and or bluff where they or others were at

even if they didn't realize that's what they were doing! :shock:

rick_chasey

mididoctors wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

I'm not talking Voeckler. I'm talking Andy.

I doubt think he'd have ridden the Alp any better relative to his rivals had he stayed with Evans before or not.

yeah you may be right (or wrong)


my point is who knew that then at that moment on the road? or more importantly calculated on that outcome at that time?

thats why those two stages were so good because people had to calculate a number of variables in a way we haven't seen for yrs and try and guess and or bluff where they or others were at

even if they didn't realize that's what they were doing! :shock:

Agreed.

I'm just defending Andy - I think he rode tactically as well as his legs would let him.

The only criticism I could level at him is that a 60km out virtually solo attack with a big day & TT the days after might have taken too much out of him.

FJS

Interesting take on this, and the role of Europcar, by Robert Millar on his blog on cyclingnews:

Contador’s attack on the Col du Télégraphe the next day was another chance to do something about gaining more time. If Fränk had been able to stay with Contador and Andy then they could have sacrificed him to distance Evans, or when Voeckler and Evans were dropped halfway up the first mountain, Andy could have done a minimum to help Contador and encouraged him to really push on. He had five minutes to play with over the Spaniard, so even if he lost time to him on the Alpe d'Huez, it wouldn't have been dramatic. They could even have waited for Voeckler when he was in between the groups, then Europcar wouldn't have chased and BMC would have been isolated again.

As an aside, quite what the yellow jersey wearer thought he was doing in no-man’s land was beyond me, his DS needed to either tell him to wait for his teammates in the chasing group behind or talk to the Saxo Bank guys about getting Contador to knock off the pace and let him get up to the front. If that had happened and they all rode in the front until the base of the last climb then there might have been a panic at BMC. As it was, Voeckler lost his podium place by continuing to chase on his own for too long.

iainf72

Clearly this Millar person has no understanding of cycling.

rick_chasey

Cycling coverage in English speaking countries could do with more punditry like the above.

'tis excellent.

mididoctors

Rick Chasey wrote:

Cycling coverage in English speaking countries could do with more punditry like the above.

'tis excellent.

just reiterating how much andy miscalculated if you think about it

rick_chasey

mididoctors wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Cycling coverage in English speaking countries could do with more punditry like the above.

'tis excellent.

just reiterating how much andy miscalculated if you think about it

I guess so.

mididoctors

FJS wrote:

Interesting take on this, and the role of Europcar, by Robert Millar on his blog on cyclingnews:

Contador’s attack on the Col du Télégraphe the next day was another chance to do something about gaining more time. If Fränk had been able to stay with Contador and Andy then they could have sacrificed him to distance Evans, or when Voeckler and Evans were dropped halfway up the first mountain, Andy could have done a minimum to help Contador and encouraged him to really push on. He had five minutes to play with over the Spaniard, so even if he lost time to him on the Alpe d'Huez, it wouldn't have been dramatic. They could even have waited for Voeckler when he was in between the groups, then Europcar wouldn't have chased and BMC would have been isolated again.

As an aside, quite what the yellow jersey wearer thought he was doing in no-man’s land was beyond me, his DS needed to either tell him to wait for his teammates in the chasing group behind or talk to the Saxo Bank guys about getting Contador to knock off the pace and let him get up to the front. If that had happened and they all rode in the front until the base of the last climb then there might have been a panic at BMC. As it was, Voeckler lost his podium place by continuing to chase on his own for too long.

what millar is saying here is that bertie and andy didn't take advantage of the yellow jersey team... by allowing vockler to get caught they were chased by two teams rather than one

however

BMC and LIQ closed to vockler and gained on bertie on the galibier so it was unlikley to work waiting for TV...thou the thought may have crossed their minds.... who knows?

here is the question for everybody at what point should of TV drifted back?

not in hindsight but as a decision on the road.... because in hindsight he should never have bothered coming across!

to answer that question you have to make the call not knowing the outcome.

knedlicky

LeicesterLad wrote:

Will be interesting to see when the tides turn and Tomy starts riding for Rolland.

May not have any importance or relevance to the above pondering, but Rolland beat (or was allowed to beat) Voeckler in last night's criterium at Lisieux.
Roy was third.

FJS

mididoctors wrote:

here is the question for everybody at what point should have TV drifted back?

When he felt himself completely overcooking when the Galibier got steeper and the Evans group was coming closer he should have switched back to a sustainable pace and let the Evans group come back. He's an experienced rider and should know to pace himself - and anyone could see he was going way too far into the red with 70 mountainstage kms to go. The Evans group would have caught up with him only a couple of kms before the summit, he would almost certainly have been able to stay with them, saved energy in the descent, and ride a much better Alpe d'Huez. What he did, going absolutely full out to stay within 30 seconds of Bertie&Andy, being dropped by the Evans group, his team mates having to wait and being passed by riders he had outclimbed all TdF, having to chase in the descent instead of recover , and finishing on Alpe d'Huez in by far his worst mountain stage position (18th).

Of course such decisions are hard to take on the road, and perhaps he was just focused on defending his yellow jersey challengers as long as possible (as he has been since 2004) rather than getting onto the podium, or on maximalising TV exposure. But he's experienced enough, and while following Andy, Bertie and Cadel on the Telegraphe was perhaps heroic, what he did on the Galibier was just plain silly, bordering on taking the piss. He missed an opportunity to become the first French rider since 1997 to get on the podium in Paris

mididoctors

FJS wrote:

mididoctors wrote:

here is the question for everybody at what point should have TV drifted back?

When he felt himself completely overcooking when the Galibier got steeper and the Evans group was coming closer he should have switched back to a sustainable pace and let the Evans group come back. He's an experienced rider and should know to pace himself - and anyone could see he was going way too far into the red with 70 mountainstage kms to go. The Evans group would have caught up with him only a couple of kms before the summit, he would almost certainly have been able to stay with them, saved energy in the descent, and ride a much better Alpe d'Huez. What he did, going absolutely full out to stay within 30 seconds of Bertie&Andy, being dropped by the Evans group, his team mates having to wait and being passed by riders he had outclimbed all TdF, having to chase in the descent instead of recover , and finishing on Alpe d'Huez in by far his worst mountain stage position (18th).

Of course such decisions are hard to take on the road, and perhaps he was just focused on defending his yellow jersey challengers as long as possible (as he has been since 2004) rather than getting onto the podium, or on maximalising TV exposure. But he's experienced enough, and what he did on the Galibier was just plain silly, bordering on taking the wee-wee

yeah that was obvious but what should have based his decision on


at one stage he was with in 22 secs..shortly before he went all big gear insanity and the top of his head flipped off

my take was the time gap that mattered for his decision at the time on the road was the one between bertie and the evans group . (euro) needed to heed that more and/or closely

FJS

mididoctors wrote:

yeah that was obvious but what should have based his decision on

at one stage he was with in 22 secs..shortly before he went all big gear insanity and the top of his head flipped off

Exactly that is what he should have based his decision on. If you need big gear insanity with 70 km to go, including half of the Galibier and the whole of Alpe d'Huez, just to maintain a chasse patate, you know something's going wrong. Old fashioned listening to your body.

rick_chasey

FJS wrote:

mididoctors wrote:

yeah that was obvious but what should have based his decision on

at one stage he was with in 22 secs..shortly before he went all big gear insanity and the top of his head flipped off

Exactly that is what he should have based his decision on. If you need big gear insanity with 70 km to go, including half of the Galibier and the whole of Alpe d'Huez, just to maintain a chasse patate, you know something's going wrong. Old fashioned listening to your body.

Hero.

mididoctors

FJS wrote:

mididoctors wrote:

yeah that was obvious but what should have based his decision on

at one stage he was with in 22 secs..shortly before he went all big gear insanity and the top of his head flipped off

Exactly that is what he should have based his decision on. If you need big gear insanity with 70 km to go, including half of the Galibier and the whole of Alpe d'Huez, just to maintain a chasse patate, you know something's going wrong. Old fashioned listening to your body.

I think he should have made the decision earlier when the chase behind started to eat into the bertie schleck group

if the group ahead pulled away and stayed away he likley lost the podium if he went back

FJS

mididoctors wrote:

I think he should have made the decision earlier when the chase behind started to eat into the bertie schleck group

Tactically, yes,

mididoctors wrote:

if the group ahead pulled away and stayed away he likeley lost the podium if he went back

Not sure, there was still the very long Galibier/Lautaret descent with long bits of flat and plenty of Europcar, BMC and Liquigas riders to chase. And, he still had more than a minute (+ a better TT) on Frank Schleck

Tom Butcher

It wasn't really until the last 5k of the Galibier that the gap between him and Contador/Schleck started to go out.

At 15.59 the gap was 38 seconds and he still had around 50 seconds on the Evans group, then he started to crack, within 6-7 minutes he was back in the Evans group - so the time where it became clear he wasn't catching Contador and being caught by the chasers wasn't long at all really. Those are the timings from the official Tour site.

Yes with hindsight he should have dropped back earlier, or has been said not gone with Contador at all, but in reality for most of the time he was in no mans land he had a realistic chance of catching the leaders. At most there was probably 5 minutes where perhaps the emotion of losing the yellow jersey clouded his judgement.

Yes it was aggressive riding, a gamble and you can argue he shouldn't have gambled with a podium place at stake but it was hardly the lunacy some are now calling it.
What if he had caught the front two - Europcar stop chasing and BMC can't bring them back - there was a very outside possibility of Voeckler winning the Tour from that position - at least he might distance Evans and Frank with Contador already down on GC.

mididoctors

FJS wrote:

mididoctors wrote:

I think he should have made the decision earlier when the chase behind started to eat into the bertie schleck group

Tactically, yes,

mididoctors wrote:

if the group ahead pulled away and stayed away he likeley lost the podium if he went back

Not sure, there was still the very long Galibier/Lautaret descent with long bits of flat and plenty of Europcar, BMC and Liquigas riders to chase. And, he still had more than a minute (+ a better TT) on Frank Schleck

No

frank doesn't matter because bertie comes over the top or at least he does in TVs mind


yes?


if bertie and andy stay away evans comes over top from the group he has fallen back too

podium could be bertie andy and evans rather than frank

you see the problem

if the group goes away and he is not in it he is 4TH in paris no matter how rested he is in the chase

he has to bank on the group coming back which is why the time gap to the chase from evans and bertie is the key factor

FJS

He had almost 5 minutes on Bertie! As long as the Evans group wasn't more than 1 and a half minute behind, Contador was not the main concern, or at least still less than Frank (who was saving energy and could jump on the Alpe). Especially not with that long descent chase opportunity ahead.

mididoctors

FJS wrote:

He had almost 5 minutes on Bertie! As long as the Evans group wasn't more than 1 and a half minute behind, Contador was not the main concern, or at least still less than Frank (who was saving energy and could jump on the Alpe). Especially not with that long descent chase opportunity ahead.

yes but that makes the problem worse he has to calculate that and the possible outcomes in the ITT.... if frank can jump in his mind he is 5th in paris in his mind

mididoctors

he was in a real jam....