Voeckler

Cumulonimbus

RichN95 wrote:

jerry3571 wrote:

Does anyone know what was his best previous TDF best placing in the GC??

18th in 2004 - the last time he wore the Yellow Jersey and bothered about his GC position.

Came 23rd in the Giro last year, getting better towards the end. Given that he is the French leader of a French team you would expect him to peak for the tour de france, maybe that result gave him some impetus? Could have finished around 7th in Paris-Nice last year but i think a mechanical coinicided with a split in the peloton losing him time.

Still a surprise to see him do that well.

jerry3571

RichN95 wrote:

jerry3571 wrote:

Just think that Voeckler with a new Team and new ambitions, means new methods of tuning performance.

But he's not riding for a new team. He's been on that team for ten years.

New sponsor. The Teams have different aims depending on each Company's goals and where and how aggressive it wants to promote itself. The Sponsors direct the Teams and what races they would like to have a presence in. Sponsors looking to increase market share in a certain Country would want a good showing in that Country's National Tour.
The Company Bbox would have different aims to Europcar. Seems Europcar wanted the the whole 9 yards in the TDF whereas Bbox was happy to go for the odd stage win. The sponsor's wishes are key as they are the people with the cheque book. This will also effect the riders selected in the Team and the Doping regime too.

-Jerry

FJS

mididoctors wrote:

I have cut him some slack over what happened there.... it wasn't totally dumb

Maybe the first bit of the chase was not too dumb (although holding out a bit with Evans would still have been smarter), but you did see him grind himself to death on the Galibier to the bitter end with 70 km to go or so on his bizarre big ring, right? With the cameras on him. I agree with Iain that too much of his behaviour seems focused on how it will come across on TV cameras rather than race-tactics. Perhaps as a professional, in France, it pays in terms of sponsor and post-race crit contracts, but it's not something I like watching

BikingBernie

iainf72 wrote:

If the French wanted to help Tommy out, they would've pulled the camera filming him when he was by himself between the groups last Friday. He would've then engaged his little brain, drifted back to the Evans group and conserved some energy. For me, he's just not a very smart rider. And that really puts me off, I can't stand tactically inept riders.

I rode up the Galibier a couple of weeks ago and I am not sure that he was being tactically inept. For one, it is uphill all the way and being in a group is much less of an advantage when you are climbing.

Secondly, for quite a while he had plenty of time over the bunch and the leaders weren't that far ahead. All it would have taken was for the leaders to ease off for a while for him to have got across, which could have still turned out to be the decisive move.

Thirdly, it was already clear that, whilst Voeckler could hang on in there when the rest were riding tempo, he didn't have that extra power needed to go with the leaders when they really put the hammer down. He could have waited for the bunch, only to have Contador, Evans etal to attack and ride away from him, never to be seen again. By riding alone he was protecting himself from having to deal with those sudden changes in pace.

Finally, by riding alone he maintained a buffer so that if he blew, he could reduce his pace and hopefully get to the top before all the rest went past him. He was struggling well before he was caught, and may well have seen the others ride away from him a lot earlier they did had he already been back with Evans etal with 8km still to go.

So, he didn't manage to get across, but if the others had eased off a little and he had I am sure everyone would by saying what a smart move he had made. It really disappoints me that combatitive racing should be written of as 'tactically inept'. Perhaps everyone would prefer to go back to the ‘tactically astute' days of Armstrong when you could pretty much guarantee that all the action would come in the last 5km of the final climb?

iainf72

BikingBernie wrote:

So, he didn't manage to get across, but if the others had eased off a little and he had I am sure everyone would by saying what a smart move he had made. It really disappoints me that combatitive racing should be written of as 'tactically inept'. Perhaps everyone would prefer to go back to the ‘tactically astute' days of Armstrong when you could pretty much guarantee that all the action would come in the last 5km of the final climb?

I can tell the difference between combatative racing and tactical ineptness. TV was definately the latter. He had a bunch of team mates behind, he could've sat in, had a bit to eat and all that.

Haven't quite a few other riders said they don't like TV as he only peforms for the cameras?

I guess some people want a glorious failure, rather than a slightly duller success.

rick_chasey

He probably figured he was buried anyway, so why not get some air time for a 'courageous' fight?

I find him difficult to like when he's on the bike, but I kinda like the story.

Bronzie

"Iain and Ferrari in total agreement shock!"

Ferrari wrote:

The Australian cyclist personally defended from the attacks of the climbers, limiting the damage in the Alpine stages, where we saw the tactical suicide by Voeckler, who persisted in chasing, alone, for more than 1 hour, Contador and Andy Schleck on the Telegraph and Galibier: had he waited the group with Evans and four (!) Europcar teammates, he would have probably been on the podium in Paris.

http://www.53x12.com/do/show?page=indepth.view&id=123

frenchfighter

Great post BB. Good to see you back dropping your usual heavyweights.

Tom Butcher

iainf72 wrote:

BikingBernie wrote:

So, he didn't manage to get across, but if the others had eased off a little and he had I am sure everyone would by saying what a smart move he had made. It really disappoints me that combatitive racing should be written of as 'tactically inept'. Perhaps everyone would prefer to go back to the ‘tactically astute' days of Armstrong when you could pretty much guarantee that all the action would come in the last 5km of the final climb?

I can tell the difference between combatative racing and tactical ineptness. TV was definitely the latter. He had a bunch of team mates behind, he could've sat in, had a bit to eat and all that.

Haven't quite a few other riders said they don't like TV as he only peforms for the cameras?

I guess some people want a glorious failure, rather than a slightly duller success.

I think you are over egging it a bit with that. Flecha criticised him for pressing on after the TV car accident and made some comments to the affect that you couldn't expect any different from Voeckler - but I've yet to hear anyone think Voeckler did anything wrong in that instance. In any case so what if he were unpopular with a few riders for not sticking to the script - it's a bike race and I'm not going to criticise a rider for making it exciting - especially when he's got a decent palmares out of it to boot.

Glorious failure - is he really? There are a few riders with similar abilities who would like to have the failure rate of Thomas Voeckler. He has a decent palmares out of adopting these kind of tactics - when they fail they may look naive but unless you are super strong you don't win bike races by being conservative. As for the Tour - even if he could have consolidated 3rd he lost it trying to win the race - not just on the Galibier but on the descent into Pinerolo too. So maybe he could have been on the podium - but he didn't just chuck that away he lost it reaching out for the win - I guess for me a 4th in those circumstances is worth more than a slightly duller 3rd.

rick_chasey

Tom Butcher wrote:

I think you are over egging it a bit with that. Flecha criticised him for pressing on after the TV car accident and made some comments to the affect that you couldn't expect any different from Voeckler - but I've yet to hear anyone think Voeckler did anything wrong in that instance. In any case so what if he were unpopular with a few riders for not sticking to the script - it's a bike race and I'm not going to criticise a rider for making it exciting - especially when he's got a decent palmares out of it to boot.

.

The Dutch commentators (and thus the public) weren't too happy.

BikingBernie

Tom Butcher wrote:

So maybe he could have been on the podium - but he didn't just chuck that away he lost it reaching out for the win - I guess for me a 4th in those circumstances is worth more than a slightly duller 3rd.

Well said. I guess that in the interests of consistency Iain is now duty-bound to praise the tactically astute riding of the Schlecks, especially Frank, and especially in the Pyrenees. After all, they finished in front of Voeckler.

BikingBernie

Rick Chasey wrote:

Tom Butcher wrote:

I think you are over egging it a bit with that. Flecha criticised him for pressing on after the TV car accident and made some comments to the affect that you couldn't expect any different from Voeckler - but I've yet to hear anyone think Voeckler did anything wrong in that instance. In any case so what if he were unpopular with a few riders for not sticking to the script - it's a bike race and I'm not going to criticise a rider for making it exciting - especially when he's got a decent palmares out of it to boot.

The Dutch commentators (and thus the public) weren't too happy.

Anyone know how the Spanish commentators reacted when Armstrong continued on after Joseba Beloki's dreadful crash?

Echo et les Boniments

BikingBernie wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Tom Butcher wrote:

I think you are over egging it a bit with that. Flecha criticised him for pressing on after the TV car accident and made some comments to the affect that you couldn't expect any different from Voeckler - but I've yet to hear anyone think Voeckler did anything wrong in that instance. In any case so what if he were unpopular with a few riders for not sticking to the script - it's a bike race and I'm not going to criticise a rider for making it exciting - especially when he's got a decent palmares out of it to boot.

The Dutch commentators (and thus the public) weren't too happy.

Anyone know how the Spanish commentators reacted when Armstrong continued on after Joseba Beloki's dreadful crash?

Kinda different... When Beloki crashed the leaders were going down hill real fast, the finish line was just a couple of kilometres away... ALso, Beloki crashed on his own, he wasn't hit by a car. I think that if people are mad at Voeckler about the "incident" (as France Television called it...) it's not because he didn't actually wait. It's because he didn't seem to care at all...

Tom Butcher

Kinda pretty much equivalent - when Flecha and Hoogerland crashed Voeckler was going for a stage win and or yellow jersey - it's not as if it was a nothing situation. Yes he could have waited and lost a career defining situation for himself - why would he do that ?

rick_chasey

Tom Butcher wrote:

Kinda pretty much equivalent - when Flecha and Hoogerland crashed Voeckler was going for a stage win and or yellow jersey - it's not as if it was a nothing situation. Yes he could have waited and lost a career defining situation for himself - why would he do that ?

Exactly, and he made his decision. The consequence was that the French love him and the Dutch don't.

I doubt it bothers him.

iainf72

BikingBernie wrote:

Tom Butcher wrote:

So maybe he could have been on the podium - but he didn't just chuck that away he lost it reaching out for the win - I guess for me a 4th in those circumstances is worth more than a slightly duller 3rd.

Well said. I guess that in the interests of consistency Iain is now duty-bound to praise the tactically astute riding of the Schlecks, especially Frank, and especially in the Pyrenees. After all, they finished in front of Voeckler.

The Schlecks did ride an astute race. There were 2 of them within striking distance, so they played to that.

How much better could Rolland have done over all if they hadn't been nursing Tommy?

frenchfighter

Removing his 4mins from the breakaway, he still places very highly.

General Classification after Stage 21
1 EVANS, Cadel (BMC RACING) 86h 12' 22"
2 SCHLECK, Andy (LEOPARD-TREK) + 01' 34"
3 SCHLECK, Frank (LEOPARD-TREK) + 02' 30"
4 VOECKLER, Thomas (EUROPCAR) + 03' 20"
5 CONTADOR VELASCO, Alberto (SAXO BANK SUNGARD) + 03' 57"
6 SANCHEZ GONZALEZ, Samuel (EUSKALTEL-EUSKADI) + 04' 55"
7 CUNEGO, Damiano (LAMPRE - ISD) + 06' 05"
8 BASSO, Ivan (LIQUIGAS-CANNONDALE) + 07' 23"
9 DANIELSON, Thomas (GARMIN-CERVELO) + 08' 15"
10 PERAUD, Jean-Christophe (AG2R LA MONDIALE) + 10' 11"


Not sure if he lost time in earlier stages too from not trying hard.

Down the Road

I missed the astute part of the ride from dumb and dumber. Yet again needing to attack on the last hill of the tour they rode a steady tempo.

when all the world knew Andy needed 2 minutes he failed to ride with aggression again.

Twice they have done that this year Once with gilbert in the classics Now in the Tour.

Let's hope Jens is in the car soon giving them the aggression they need

mididoctors

iainf72 wrote:

BikingBernie wrote:

So, he didn't manage to get across, but if the others had eased off a little and he had I am sure everyone would by saying what a smart move he had made. It really disappoints me that combatitive racing should be written of as 'tactically inept'. Perhaps everyone would prefer to go back to the ‘tactically astute' days of Armstrong when you could pretty much guarantee that all the action would come in the last 5km of the final climb?

I can tell the difference between combatative racing and tactical ineptness. TV was definitely the latter. He had a bunch of team mates behind, he could've sat in, had a bit to eat and all that.

Haven't quite a few other riders said they don't like TV as he only peforms for the cameras?

I guess some people want a glorious failure, rather than a slightly duller success.

the most inept rider then was andy


he was the one who lost the tour by arriving at the alpe with legs unable to follow contador?

he needed the time why didn't he drop back?

that actually is the case...... I dont see everyone having pointing out the tactical naivity there.... because in both cases neither rider knew what was going to happen


by the time we all saw TV stuck in no mans land its too late to say this is really stupid


its only with hindsight


if we review the stage 19 thread its only stupid way into the stage


if you had posted early on the telegraph that TV should have sat up AT THE TIME then I would give you + points

mididoctors

Down the Road wrote:

I missed the astute part of the ride from dumb and dumber. Yet again needing to attack on the last hill of the tour they rode a steady tempo.

when all the world knew Andy needed 2 minutes he failed to ride with aggression again.

Twice they have done that this year Once with gilbert in the classics Now in the Tour.

Let's hope Jens is in the car soon giving them the aggression they need

because he had shot his legs following contador earlier rather than astutly falling back into the evans group and attacking hard on the alpe

dougzz

Down the Road wrote:

I missed the astute part of the ride from dumb and dumber. Yet again needing to attack on the last hill of the tour they rode a steady tempo.

when all the world knew Andy needed 2 minutes he failed to ride with aggression again.

Twice they have done that this year Once with gilbert in the classics Now in the Tour.

Let's hope Jens is in the car soon giving them the aggression they need

The old LBL again. Frank and Andy could have been on BMWs that day and Gilbert was still winning. Some days it's about legs rather than tactics.They did pretty much everything right,escaped everyone but Gilbert, who frankly was in the form of his (or anyone's) life at that time and was just too strong. Do you honestly believe that there was a tactic that could have beaten Gilbert from the situation where the 3 of them were away?
I genuinely don't understand the amount of crap dumped on the Schlecks. It's become so popular to belittle and laugh at them. I seem to remember the same thing being done to Cadel until a couple of years ago.

rick_chasey

I don't think Andy would have had the legs on the Alpe had he gone with Contador or not.

Evans only ended up in the group behind because of a mechanical remember.

They rode up at pretty similar speeds.

Echo et les Boniments

Rick Chasey wrote:

Tom Butcher wrote:

Kinda pretty much equivalent - when Flecha and Hoogerland crashed Voeckler was going for a stage win and or yellow jersey - it's not as if it was a nothing situation. Yes he could have waited and lost a career defining situation for himself - why would he do that ?

Exactly, and he made his decision. The consequence was that the French love him and the Dutch don't.

I doubt it bothers him.

No, he doesn't care at all, he never cares about what people say -Voeckler's mental game is real strong, so much stronger than, say, Chavanel's. At the Giro del Trentino this year Scarponi nicknamed Voeckler the rottweiler and that was a compliment...

The French love Voeckler because of his tough-as-nails defense of the yellow jersey. The way Voeckler acted after the Hoogerland-Flecha debacle drew mixed reactions in France. People questioned his behaviour in the press, some actually talking about unsportsmanship, while Voeckler's arch-rivals FDJ and their supporters (a sizeable share of French cycling fans) duly tut-tutted. As soon as Voeckler had survived the first Pyrénées stage however, any kind of doubt was promptly swept under the carpet: Voeckler and his lieutenant Rolland were the heroes the nation had been waiting for.

TMR

Echo et les Boniments wrote:

it's not because he didn't actually wait. It's because he didn't seem to care at all...

Not disrespect, but that's bollocks.

He clearly was unhappy about what had happened by the way he shook his head as soon as he realised. However, the guy was riding for Yellow - what exactly do you think he should have done?

I have no issue with him carrying on.

Echo et les Boniments

The Mad Rapper wrote:

Echo et les Boniments wrote:

it's not because he didn't actually wait. It's because he didn't seem to care at all...

Not disrespect, but that's bollocks.

He clearly was unhappy about what had happened by the way he shook his head as soon as he realised. However, the guy was riding for Yellow - what exactly do you think he should have done?

I have no issue with him carrying on.

Well... I have no issue about him carrying on either.

That wasn't my opinion at all, I was talking about the people's reaction: "if the people are mad at Voeckler, it's not because he didn't actually wait. It's because he didn't seem to care at all..."
Many people in France complained about his post-race "coldness" about what had just happened. That's what I was trying to say

mididoctors

Rick Chasey wrote:

I don't think Andy would have had the legs on the Alpe had he gone with Contador or not.

Evans only ended up in the group behind because of a mechanical remember.

They rode up at pretty similar speeds.

did he? of was he dropped first, we never really saw it.

more importantly did andy know that?


you see the problem with all these in hindsight tellings of what happened is they are not so much incorrect....because often they are correct... its they fail to be in the moment of what the riders or DS's thought at the critical points on the stage. who othe stage 19 thread was calculating the speed of the chase... evans couldn't close on a new bike with burghardt in support


no body on this forum accused TV of being stupid until well after TV left Pineau going up the galibier

go look at the thread..... too late then....

its not so much the analysis that TV may have been better off going back..its the notion his thinking was totally stupid at the time compared to say andy or anyone else

was it the wrong call?

yes

was it super stupid and reflected of tactical niavity

no


the most naive rider was andy in hindsight....

mididoctors

I mean why did evans bother going across...you could argue he should of not reacted and just organised a chase cos it all came back together in the end...

because he DIDNT KNOW THEY WERE NOT GOING TO STAY AWAY.

AMIRITE!

jerry3571

Before race radios, the racing was all decided on the road by the Team Leaders and some of those were really dumb. Many good bike riders have nothing between thier ears; strong legs but no brain cells. I thought that was why we had race radios now; to counter act the lack of active neurons in some riders??

-Jerry

Ps- Sammy Sanchez is a rider who likes to drag up the opposition in a dumb way. Alpe d'Huez where he dragged voeckler's mate up for him to get dropped before the finish; also screwing up his mate's (AC) chances too!!
Maybe a programme in the making "World's Dummest Cyclist".

rick_chasey

I'm not talking Voeckler. I'm talking Andy.

I doubt think he'd have ridden the Alp any better relative to his rivals had he stayed with Evans before or not.

LeicesterLad

" wrote:

Ps- Sammy Sanchez is a rider who likes to drag up the opposition in a dumb way. Alpe d'Huez where he dragged voeckler's mate up for him to get dropped before the finish; also screwing up his mate's (AC) chances too!!
Maybe a programme in the making "World's Dummest Cyclist".

Bertie did give him some stick for that apparently, as well as calling Rolland a 'future GT winner' which i think won't be far off the mark. Will be interesting to see when the tides turn and Tomy starts riding for Rolland.