Garmin users and your auto pause.....

danowat

derbygrimpeur wrote:

SBezza wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

amaferanga wrote:

Not sure what point your making with regard seeing the time for your ride. I press start when I set off on a ride and stop when I finish. That's my ride time. Not sure either how the lap-timer for you car is relevant (or did you just slip it in cos its been a while since you mentioned that you race cars )

It's simple - if I'm not going fast enough, I need to speed up (same goes for the car). But there are delays on my route (junctions etc) which are random (some days I'll sit whilst 20 cars go past on others I sail straight out). I can't speed up when I'm reviewing Garmin Connect afterwards....

If all you want to do is record a time, it serves no purpose. If you are pacing yourself, it does.

LOL that is the funniest thing I have heard today. Some days I can put out xxx watts and do an average of 18mph +, other days I can put out more watts and yet go slower. Speed is a meaningless measure of effort or fitness to be honest, it all depends on weather, traffic conditions, route profiles and the like.

But if you couple that data with HR, then you can compare two different rides. I know what avg speeds I should be capable of for a given HR on specific routes. I use this to see if my fitness is improving/reducing and whether I perhaps need to do things differently.

Just because you don't use it doesn't mean it's pointless. It's a useful feature for some, not for you.

Speed is also affected by weather conditions, fatigue, training load, illness and other factors that are out of your control, hence why speed isn't a good indicator of fitness or effort.

meanredspider

danowat wrote:

SBezza wrote:

Speed is a meaningless measure of effort or fitness to be honest, it all depends on weather, traffic conditions, route profiles and the like.

Perfectly sums it up, although its a strange thing to hear from a tester

Trouble is,avg speed is great for the "E-penis", hence why you see so many people quoting avg speeds that bear no relation to real life, which leads to a very distorted picture for new(er) riders when they view some peoples quoted speeds.

The only time I care about speed is when racing, and even then, its generally after the event!

I agree about "speed" - I made the mistake in my very first post on here of mentioning a speed and it totally derailed the thread. I had no idea (at the time) that it would cause such excitement and I mentioned it quite innocently.

But as not all of us have power meters, time over a prescribed and repeatable route is as good as it gets. A wish to remove all external "noise" from that information I think is pretty understandable - all the more so if all it takes is a simple setting change.

SBezza

derbygrimpeur wrote:

SBezza wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

amaferanga wrote:

Not sure what point your making with regard seeing the time for your ride. I press start when I set off on a ride and stop when I finish. That's my ride time. Not sure either how the lap-timer for you car is relevant (or did you just slip it in cos its been a while since you mentioned that you race cars )

It's simple - if I'm not going fast enough, I need to speed up (same goes for the car). But there are delays on my route (junctions etc) which are random (some days I'll sit whilst 20 cars go past on others I sail straight out). I can't speed up when I'm reviewing Garmin Connect afterwards....

If all you want to do is record a time, it serves no purpose. If you are pacing yourself, it does.

LOL that is the funniest thing I have heard today. Some days I can put out xxx watts and do an average of 18mph +, other days I can put out more watts and yet go slower. Speed is a meaningless measure of effort or fitness to be honest, it all depends on weather, traffic conditions, route profiles and the like.

But if you couple that data with HR, then you can compare two different rides. I know what avg speeds I should be capable of for a given HR on specific routes. I use this to see if my fitness is improving/reducing and whether I perhaps need to do things differently.

Just because you don't use it doesn't mean it's pointless. It's a useful feature for some, not for you.

HR is not a measure of fitness either, combine it with average speed, and it is a stab in the dark.

I used to train with HR, and although it can be a guide it is just that, try doing the ride 2 or 3 days in a row, and the HR data alone would be different even if the weather and average speed were the same.

meanredspider

danowat wrote:

Speed is also affected by weather conditions, fatigue, training load, illness and other factors that are out of your control, hence why speed isn't a good indicator of fitness or effort.

Which measure of performance isn't affected by those things? Not power (you can't tell me we produce as much power when we're fatigued, over-trained, ill or even cold & wet?). I don't understand the point - or, frankly, how we've got onto talking about it being a measure of fitness.

SBezza

Yes even power is affected by fatigue, but nothing else on that list really, weather certainly doesn't affect power.

With power you can objectively measure an improvment in fitness by means of testing, you don't measure fitness progression via a 1 or 2 hour training ride. You would normally see power improvments in racing or a dedicated test.

These are things you can't measure with speed, unless it is on a turbo.

Anyhow like you say this is far away from the original question posed by the OP, I just queried why anyone would use auto pause, as knowing your average speed doesn't mean anything really (apart from guaging at what time you might be home on your planned route )

meanredspider

redddraggon wrote:

Auto-Pause is a willy waving feature for artificially boosting your average speed.

What - by (your) 0.3mph? Must have a pretty small "willy" to want to boost it by 0.3mph.

For my needs, it's just about removing external variability (noise) which is what you should aim to do with any measurement system.

What a lot of fuss about nothing....

SBezza

Meanredspider

Next time you do your route, just go as hard as you can without looking at the average speed, and just see what it is at the end of the ride. You might find you have an even higher average speed. Surely if you are aiming for the best time possible, go as hard as you can for the entire ride. If you are going as hard as you can surely you wouldn't be able to go any faster

meanredspider

SBezza wrote:

Yes even power is affected by fatigue, but nothing else on that list really, weather certainly doesn't affect power.

Genuine (but surprised) question - you produce the same power at 35C as at 15C as at 4C in the pouring rain? I'd genuinely be interested to see that data.

I'm sure power is affected by illness and, almost by definition, over-training.

SBezza

meanredspider wrote:

SBezza wrote:

Yes even power is affected by fatigue, but nothing else on that list really, weather certainly doesn't affect power.

Genuine (but surprised) question - you produce the same power at 35C as at 15C as at 4C in the pouring rain? I'd genuinely be interested to see that data.

I'm sure power is affected by illness and, almost by definition, over-training.

Yes, for the same level of fatigue I would expect to put out very similar power across a range of temps. Illness would affect power to some degree, as if I was ill I wouldn't be riding that hard if riding at all

As for over training, this is an over stated problem on this site, proper over training would leave you off your bike, and would impact on power for sure. Overtraining is a sympton that not many riders will experience to be honest. They might overreach and hence be fatigued, but this is what you do in training, you have to over reach to improve.

I can do a 7 hour ride and put out the same power at the end for that duration of a ride, I doubt I would be able to do 20 mins at threshold however, without some serious effort.

meanredspider

SBezza wrote:

Meanredspider

Next time you do your route, just go as hard as you can without looking at the average speed, and just see what it is at the end of the ride. You might find you have an even higher average speed. Surely if you are aiming for the best time possible, go as hard as you can for the entire ride. If you are going as hard as you can surely you wouldn't be able to go any faster

For sure - I know what happens if it try that - I'm forked about halfway. Hence pacing myself. I'm sure you racing types don't set off at a sprint (unless you're in a sprint ). And, whilst my day-to-day times don't change much, my average over time does just by pushing myself to be a bit faster each time. The other rides I do mix up a variety of things - hills in particular which, due to my size, are my achilles heel - so I do a lot of them. I'd love a power meter but it would be a boy's toy which I can't justify.

rolf_f

OMG - it's the Parameter Nazis!

MeanRedSpider - I'm at least with you on this. Don't have a powertap so stuff like speed and HR is all I have and, despite what some might say, it is better than nothing. I assume some folk here would have never got on their bikes a few years ago before powertaps were available as it would have been impossible for them to train!

I do think speed is a bit meaningless though - cadence is surely a better focus?

However, the benefits of autopause are very obvious if you commute with a certain amount of potential traffic light stoppages. I can get a run with very few stoppages or one with quite a few. Probably impacts on time by about 5 minutes. I simply want to eliminate a random, irrelevant variable. The rest time at the lights is probably adequately offset by the speed loss. It just makes for less unneccessary variance.

SBezza

If it is a regular route, you should know how to pace it without a computer by now You are right I don't go off in a sprint for a race or training, but even without a powermeter I know what so of level I need to ride at for any particular duration/intensity.

The difference for me is that I know exactly what sort of training ride I have planned, and ride accordingly, I never really try and do a route faster than the previous time. For me the average speed is what I end up with, as long as the ride was the correct duration and intensity I couldn't care less what the average speed is.

meanredspider

SBezza wrote:

If it is a regular route, you should know how to pace it without a computer by now You are right I don't go off in a sprint for a race or training, but even without a powermeter I know what so of level I need to ride at for any particular duration/intensity.

The difference for me is that I know exactly what sort of training ride I have planned, and ride accordingly, I never really try and do a route faster than the previous time. For me the average speed is what I end up with, as long as the ride was the correct duration and intensity I couldn't care less what the average speed is.

I pretty much do know how to pace it in the same way that I have a good idea what cadence I'm pedalling - but I like to keep track and not fall into complacency. It also adds a bit of interest to the ride and keeps me pushing. I don't worry about it at all when I'm doing the hills - then I'm just busting a gut.

Surfr

I found the auto-pause very useful on the Welsh 12 hour champs on the weekend. When I stopped to re-fuel, recover or got held up at ligths the Garmin auto-paused and now I now how much time I was off the bike for. With this in mind I can calculate what to aim for next year with less time off the bike. Also average speed and current speed are all useful variables for calculating protracted efforts over the coming hours for different circuits. I had 1 screen with:

HR, Moving Time, Clock, Speed, Cadence, Distance and alarms for 10 minute intervals for feed/drink reminders and a MAx HR alarm to keep me near LT. I used all of that data regularly.

For the record, I do have a speed/cad esnsor but I don't have a power meter.

Lucky Douglas

Rolf F wrote:

However, the benefits of autopause are very obvious if you commute with a certain amount of potential traffic light stoppages. I can get a run with very few stoppages or one with quite a few. Probably impacts on time by about 5 minutes. I simply want to eliminate a random, irrelevant variable.

Spot on - stop-starting up a 100 yard queue can make a big distortion to the average on an otherwise brisk ride

Jeff Jones

I have mine set to auto-pause when stopped. It hasn't slowed me down yet

springtide9

I looked at auto pause as well as pausing when you are stopped. I leave it off.

I guess average speed is pretty meaningless on it's own, but if you want to do an event they will generally ask you for 'average speed' for groupings.

I couldn't work out whether or not you should include stops or not... and whether you should also include time spent (resting) in a cafe!

I figured that if I disabled auto-pause as well as not manually pausing when stopped... then this would be worse case. In fact, looking at the data over a longish ride, the difference is surprisingly small (compared to say a car journey). But I mostly cycle alone, so I stop very little to chat (obviously talk to myself a lot when actually riding!) or have cafe stops etc, so it's only a few bio breaks that really impact my speed.

But as said above, Garmin Connect, etc show both average moving time in addition to average time, so you seem to have both values anyway.

Surfr

springtide9 wrote:

but if you want to do an event they will generally ask you for 'average speed' for groupings.

Really? I've ridden sportives, MTB Enduros and raced cyclocross, circuits, road races, open time trials, hill climbs and club events and nobody ever asked for my average speed. CTT Opens do ask for previous event times or milages for the fixed time events.

springtide9

Surfr wrote:

springtide9 wrote:

but if you want to do an event they will generally ask you for 'average speed' for groupings.

Really? I've ridden sportives, MTB Enduros and raced cyclocross, circuits, road races, open time trials, hill climbs and club events and nobody ever asked for my average speed. CTT Opens do ask for previous event times or milages for the fixed time events.

Sorry my bad...
Not all events, but some 'tour' events seem to ask for rough average speeds so that you are placed in the right 'group'. An example of this is the London to Paris (or even Swindon to Paris!). Not that I have done any personally, but I have two friends doing it this year, one of which did it last year (and is working on moving up a group or two from last year)

SBezza

Jeff Jones wrote:

I have mine set to auto-pause when stopped. It hasn't slowed me down yet

But I bet you don't train by trying to keep up an average speed Jeff

derbygrimpeur

SBezza wrote:

HR is not a measure of fitness either, combine it with average speed, and it is a stab in the dark.

I used to train with HR, and although it can be a guide it is just that, try doing the ride 2 or 3 days in a row, and the HR data alone would be different even if the weather and average speed were the same.

HR & Avg Spd can give a reliable indicator of fitness when couple with other factors. I keep a training log which includes avg HR / avg spd / weather / course profile plus various other stuff. I can compare one ride against similar rides to see if HR/speed ratio has improved/decreased. I do the same for my running (which is my main sport) and it works very well. It helps me tweak my training, back off where necessary to avoid overtraining when illness approaching, or simply to disregard a training run/ride as a bad day.

For my cycling, I simply don't have any desire/need to get a power meter so will do the best with what data I have available.

Why on earth would I want my ride time to include time I was sat at a busy junction waiting for traffic!

Anyway, you're not going to persuade me not to pause, so that's the last from me on this subject

amaferanga

derbygrimpeur wrote:

Why on earth would I want my ride time to include time I was sat at a busy junction waiting for traffic!

Because your ride time did actually include some time when you were sat at a busy junction?

Stopping for different lengths of time will influence how fast you go after each stop. Hence why average speed and HR are no better than good guesses for comparing rides unless you ride under controlled conditions when they might become very good guesses.

Jeff Jones

SBezza wrote:

Jeff Jones wrote:

I have mine set to auto-pause when stopped. It hasn't slowed me down yet

But I bet you don't train by trying to keep up an average speed Jeff

This is true. Power is a great leveller.

I do however like to compare average speeds from year to year (I don't have enough historical power data yet), and in order to be consistent I use moving average.

Fortunately most of the routes I use don't have much stopping, so it makes little difference either way.

meanredspider

amaferanga wrote:

derbygrimpeur wrote:

Why on earth would I want my ride time to include time I was sat at a busy junction waiting for traffic!

Because your ride time did actually include some time when you were sat at a busy junction?

Stopping for different lengths of time will influence how fast you go after each stop. Hence why average speed and HR are no better than good guesses for comparing rides unless you ride under controlled conditions when they might become very good guesses.

Yes - but the length of the stop & loss of momentum vastly outweighs any time improvement you get from stopping (else you'd see atheletes of all sorts in races pulling up for a quick breather). One of the places I get stopped is swinging onto the A9 onto a downhill section. By maintaining my momentum I can pick up a lot more speed down that hill. If I have to stop (typically for a truck followed by a queue of 20 cars), I'm much slower covering that distance. Since I'm only racing the clock, stopping it whilst I'm stopped seems pretty fair.

You find it no help - leave it switched off - I'll lose no sleep.

amaferanga

meanredspider wrote:

amaferanga wrote:

derbygrimpeur wrote:

Why on earth would I want my ride time to include time I was sat at a busy junction waiting for traffic!

Because your ride time did actually include some time when you were sat at a busy junction?

Stopping for different lengths of time will influence how fast you go after each stop. Hence why average speed and HR are no better than good guesses for comparing rides unless you ride under controlled conditions when they might become very good guesses.

Yes - but the length of the stop & loss of momentum vastly outweighs any time improvement you get from stopping (else you'd see atheletes of all sorts in races pulling up for a quick breather). One of the places I get stopped is swinging onto the A9 onto a downhill section. By maintaining my momentum I can pick up a lot more speed down that hill. If I have to stop (typically for a truck followed by a queue of 20 cars), I'm much slower covering that distance. Since I'm only racing the clock, stopping it whilst I'm stopped seems pretty fair.

You find it no help - leave it switched off - I'll lose no sleep.

The point was that if you stop for 5s at some traffic lights you won't recover the same as if you stop for a minute or two. The race analogy is just stupid.

meanredspider

amaferanga wrote:

The point was that if you stop for 5s at some traffic lights you won't recover the same as if you stop for a minute or two. The race analogy is just stupid.

How much of that 2 minutes (plus slowing down and speeding up) do you think you will recover by having rested for 2 minutes? By including it, rather than excluding it, you must believe it's more than half. And given most of the stops will be shorter than this (I typically exclude around a minute - min 0 max 2 mins), the resting element is trivial. But being a minute faster in 50 minutes I find far from trivial.

amaferanga

meanredspider wrote:

amaferanga wrote:

The point was that if you stop for 5s at some traffic lights you won't recover the same as if you stop for a minute or two. The race analogy is just stupid.

How much of that 2 minutes (plus slowing down and speeding up) do you think you will recover by having rested for 2 minutes? By including it, rather than excluding it, you must believe it's more than half. And given most of the stops will be shorter than this (I typically exclude around a minute - min 0 max 2 mins), the resting element is trivial. But being a minute faster in 50 minutes I find far from trivial.

Cycle balls out for 5 minutes. Then rest for 5 seconds and cycle balls out again. Then repeat but with 2 minutes rest and see how much quicker you are with the longer rest.

At the end of the day average speed is a pretty meaningless indicator. My average speed for this year hasn't changed much if at all, yet I'm putting out around 20W more at FTP. Go figure....

rolf_f

amaferanga wrote:

At the end of the day average speed is a pretty meaningless indicator. My average speed for this year hasn't changed much if at all, yet I'm putting out around 20W more at FTP. Go figure....

Congratulations - you have a power meter. I don't. As it happens, my speed has increased this year. But since speed apparently has no relationship to fitness, I'm probably just getting less fit and gaining the benefits of it! I'm sure I would be able to 'train' better with a powermeter but, as it is, I'll have to make do with what I do have.

Besides, the Garmin should be able to record overall elapsed journey time anyway, whether or not autopause is on. Therefore autopause is just providing you with additional info.

What I do know is that my times are quicker when there are less stops - so your analogy that the rest at the lights confers a speed advantage is not borne out by any of my observations. Though I do have a hilly course and the bit hits at traffic lights tend to be on fast downhills.

PS - I won't 'go figure' - I'm not an American I may consider 'working it out for myself' though......

meanredspider

amaferanga wrote:

Cycle balls out for 5 minutes. Then rest for 5 seconds and cycle balls out again. Then repeat but with 2 minutes rest and see how much quicker you are with the longer rest.

Except that has nothing to do with riding for 50 minutes. I haven't bothered learning the technical terms but riding "balls out" for 5 minutes will not be at FTP. When I stop at a junction, I'm not about to cough up a lung or two because I can't sustain the same pace that I could for 5 minutes for 50. Hence, the effect of rest is completely different. I'm sure you know that....