4th cat and nearly 40...is there hope!
Comments
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Your TT times would suggest your fast enough to stay in a bunch. If your inexperienced, you need to be doing some group riding or chain gangs to build confidence at holding a wheel. There is something about the variations in effort, the little accelerations and the higher speeds required in when riding in a group that are very hard to replicate when training on your own.
3/4th cat races would be a lot safer if everyone riding had to complete say 10 hours of riding with a chain gang.0 -
Pseudonym wrote:NapoleonD wrote:Anyhoo, this thread is being derailed again with trolling. Those that say 'just get over it' I hope you get over things that easily if they ever happen to you.
I have tried to help the OP with suggestions of intervals.
The likes of P Tucker and Pseudonym are examples of why many people think roadies are knobs. Thoughtless and arrogant.
you say we are 'trolling' and yet you are the one who derailed the thread with an irrelevant and rather melodramatic rant about your own inability to stay upright. Sorry if that comes across as 'thoughtless and arrogant' - but you are coming across as a bit of an attention-seeking cry baby....get over yourself.
And you are coming across as a f*cking c0ck.0 -
NapoleonD wrote:Pseudonym wrote:NapoleonD wrote:Anyhoo, this thread is being derailed again with trolling. Those that say 'just get over it' I hope you get over things that easily if they ever happen to you.
I have tried to help the OP with suggestions of intervals.
The likes of P Tucker and Pseudonym are examples of why many people think roadies are knobs. Thoughtless and arrogant.
you say we are 'trolling' and yet you are the one who derailed the thread with an irrelevant and rather melodramatic rant about your own inability to stay upright. Sorry if that comes across as 'thoughtless and arrogant' - but you are coming across as a bit of an attention-seeking cry baby....get over yourself.
And you are coming across as a f*cking c0ck.
You can't be in that much pain if you managed to write that0 -
Amazing. You managed to get NapD banned/off the board. One of the nicest guys here gone. Good work :roll:0
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Hi napoleon
Apologies for some of the responses you have had. I find some cyclists as a whole self absorbed, this thread has just shown me how insensitive and arrogant some cyclists are. Ignore them Nap. and good luck in your recovery, dont let them spoil for you what is essentially a good sport.
As for training, to improve endurance and the ability to respond i have always found interval training to be good for both endurance and speed. May i suggest on your training runs you pick a particular type of road layout, i.e. hills, long flats or even downhill and raise your pace on these features. Hills will increase your speed endurance, downhills will increase your cadence. Long flats cover a bit of both. The ability to vary speed within a racing scenario can be a factor in breaking the rhythm of other competitors and increasing their fatigue, if you have trained for it, your endurance will be better than theirs.
Of course if they are younger fitter and faster it still wont be enough.......
regards
SlipRaleigh Pursuit (bulky bike bulky rider)
shimano shoes
rest is muddy fox or karrimor
really bright 1 watt cree headlight..0 -
monnet wrote:Annoying though it is, if you want to move up it's worth looking out for where you can pick up easy points.
234 events are definitely safer and I don't think the fitness issue is quite what you think. Your TT times indicate you have the fitness. I find 234 races are only a couple of mph faster than 34s but are much smoother and less jumpy, which means safer and easier to ride.
I'm a 3rd cat and have no problem sticking with a 234 race, riding in the wheels and conserving energy. My biggest weakness is reading the race. In essence, I'd suggest you take a twofold approach - select races where you think points should be relatively easy to collect and ride 234s to get the extra fitness and comfort in the bunch. And try to race twice a week. Perhaps worry about getting your 2nd cat next year - remember a competitive 2nd cat will be getting results in Elite.
Not sure about this advice.
What is the point of trying to get easy points, which does not make you faster, then get blown out the back in a decent race?
Hiding in the bunch is such a pain in the arse and these days it seems to be the norm this is why races are slower and less safe in 3/4 as they all have the same idea, stay in the bunch save energy, mad rush tio the front with 1km to go and try to sprint, blow up, then 8 abreast some moving up, others moing back, oh crash.
It is best for the OP to have a go off the front a few times, eventually will get in a break, if others brave to try also.
I would not say 2,3,4 races are allsfaer it depends on the race and the riders, though I would say the racing is less negative and the final stages are safer probably becuase of the highter speed.
TT imes are irrelevent with respect to racing, unless your talking about 30 minutes for a 10 in which case dont race.
It is not always easy to ride and stay in a 2,3,4 race sheltering, some crits I have ridden in were strung out entire race with no bunch, where do you hide then? I was grovelling to hold a wheel for lap after lap tonnight becuase the younger riders and 1st cats just attacked lap after lap but I know this will get me fit.
The 3/4 caught us on more than one occasion after we lapped them but when the hammer went down again 20 seconds opened between races within a lap, this is where it is hard and chasing easy points will not prepare the OP for this, only hard work and racing will do that.
Easy point in a 24mph race is no prep for a 27mph race with slow and fast sections.
If I was him I would enter a few 2,3,4 to try the faster races.
LVRC races are easier than 2,3,4 races without a doubt but they are good races and well worth doing, especially in he OP case.
I do a mixture of both and the LVRC is great value at £8 a race
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+1 - race like a man, and if you're good enough you'll move up. If you hide in the bunch and have a little sprint at the end, you'll do yourself no favours when you find you're racing against significantly better riders in races where it rarely finishes in a sprint, and a season of rolling around in the bunch awaits. Which is not fun.0
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Agree with Oldwelshman here.
What's the point of hoovering up easy points in 4th cat circuit races to get a hiding off 2nd cats. Get used to doing 2nd cat races and accept that the fist few are going to be hard. when I started racing there were no 4th cat only races, you moved up by getting results in 2/3/4 or 3/4 events.
Also agree that sitting in all race in a 4th cat event and hoping to get a few points in a sprint will not help at all with higher category racing.
People should be racing to win, not consider finishing in the bunch as a triumph.0 -
StageWinner wrote:Amazing. You managed to get NapD banned/off the board. One of the nicest guys here gone. Good work :roll:
Did they really? Gun to the head as he typed whatever has led to a ban??
Behave.0 -
OK so Nap probably has laboured the point about his accident a little too much - but it's understandable isn't it ? I mean breaking several bones is going to dent your confidence a bit - when that comes alongside denting your career prospects and means you also feel like giving up a sport you love because you don't think you justify and or live with the risk of crashing then I think he can be forgiven not getting over that quickly.
Maybe some of those who wound him up should cut him some slack - after all to him it's a major thing - to them just another argument on an internet forum.
it's a hard life if you don't weaken.0 -
Tom Butcher wrote:Maybe some of those who wound him up should cut him some slack - after all to him it's a major thing - to them just another argument on an internet forum.
Of course getting injured is a major thing - I don't think anyone would argue with that. But this thread was originally about how a 4th cat can reach 2nd cat in a couple of seasons. I'm not personally interested in NapoleonD's home life and career prospects - I've never met him and probably never will. I'm far more interested in responding to the original question. Unfortunately, he was far more interested in being overly-dramatic because a few people he'd never met declined to give him the sympathy he was looking for.
That said, if he has been banned ( I don't know what this 'guest' thing is all about), then that might be a bit harsh...0 -
I think 'guest' mode is Nap taking a back seat off the forum for a while.?
I have met him and yes like us all in the huge majority , he is a real nice fella.
Again, the huge majority love the sport and activity of cycling despite how 'it' can seemingly turn against you on a whim sometimes.
To keep things in perspective, I heed the forum title - amateur racing - doing something for the love of it and gaining personal inner victory or overcoming obstacles.
I'll aspire to be the best I can, but it's a slow game.... last year after a small injury, I was being regularly spat out out of the back... this year, able to hold my own in the main bunch.. that to me is a a 'victory' despite others on here seemingly wanting to disparage the effort and advise never to take up the art of race cycling again.
Perhaps, I have gained a wider field of vision as I have got older.
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Pseudonym wrote:I'm far more interested in responding to the original question.
Really? Of the 6 posts you'd made on this thread the 1st one related to the OP.
The rest were aimed at NapD. I'd suggest that you kept coming back to this thread to see if he'd posted up again rather than contributing further to the actual thread. The thread had actually been going on while you were picking a fight with a guy who was down on his luck , so you had plenty of opportunity to contribute.
Have a look at his posts in this section of the forum and you'll find that he was one of the most helpful contributors here.
Anyway, there are some interesting points here I hadn't really considered. I've been staying away from 2/3/4 races up to now but might give one a go.Scottish and British...and a bit French0 -
To the Op
40 is nothing i m 48 and have just got my 3rd and scored pts this yr and last in a mixture of 4ths and 3/4 racing, on the road and cct racing, non this yr were in bunch sprints. Also, last yr was only just out side scoring pts in 2/3/4 racing, they were grt events and i learnt alot in them.
8hrs is quite alot really if they r not commuting hrs, just concentrate on the intensity side of things more than hrs on the bike, personally i really like the SufferFest vids :roll:
To NapD... i hope you get better soon and make a full recovery, with that list of injuries, it is no wonder you feel angry and rightly so, as to being banned, what was that all about? you were provoked and their comments were at best insensitive.
the moderator should re think :idea:0 -
I'm 40 and in the best shape of my life! Riding for my country and going to the Paralympics next year and currently on top of the world. Granted, the standard in my races is a little different, as are my capabilities, but the premise is still the same: with proper training and hard work, you can succeed at 40!0
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Shame that NapD is in 'guest' mode whatever that is?......it maybe a good idea for him to take a step back from the forum though at the minute.....plenty of trolls on here enjoy baiting him, and in all honesty he is labouring the point about his crash.
The sheer amount of crashes in circuit racing do put me off.....I race mtb and have done one road race-will race more road races next year for training......I do worry about getting knocked off though! Plenty of interval training should help the OP out imo.0 -
To the OP. At 40 you are only a youngster and there are guys into there 50's winning3/4 races so you have every chance. Think about making things happen in the race-try to get breaks going and split things up a bit. More fun and increases the odds.0
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Track league is a much safer bet, at least you know everyone has been trained to ride sensibly before being allowed out to play.0
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Nap - crash? what happened? I've been away......0
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So no offs on track then
It's not road racing either.. which gives me the better buzz... and my local track is concrete and the thought of downing on that at speed ... sort of does not appeal.0 -
oldwelshman wrote:monnet wrote:Annoying though it is, if you want to move up it's worth looking out for where you can pick up easy points.
234 events are definitely safer and I don't think the fitness issue is quite what you think. Your TT times indicate you have the fitness. I find 234 races are only a couple of mph faster than 34s but are much smoother and less jumpy, which means safer and easier to ride.
I'm a 3rd cat and have no problem sticking with a 234 race, riding in the wheels and conserving energy. My biggest weakness is reading the race. In essence, I'd suggest you take a twofold approach - select races where you think points should be relatively easy to collect and ride 234s to get the extra fitness and comfort in the bunch. And try to race twice a week. Perhaps worry about getting your 2nd cat next year - remember a competitive 2nd cat will be getting results in Elite.
Not sure about this advice.
What is the point of trying to get easy points, which does not make you faster, then get blown out the back in a decent race?
Hiding in the bunch is such a pain in the ars* and these days it seems to be the norm this is why races are slower and less safe in 3/4 as they all have the same idea, stay in the bunch save energy, mad rush tio the front with 1km to go and try to sprint, blow up, then 8 abreast some moving up, others moing back, oh crash.
It is best for the OP to have a go off the front a few times, eventually will get in a break, if others brave to try also.
I would not say 2,3,4 races are allsfaer it depends on the race and the riders, though I would say the racing is less negative and the final stages are safer probably becuase of the highter speed.
TT imes are irrelevent with respect to racing, unless your talking about 30 minutes for a 10 in which case dont race.
It is not always easy to ride and stay in a 2,3,4 race sheltering, some crits I have ridden in were strung out entire race with no bunch, where do you hide then? I was grovelling to hold a wheel for lap after lap tonnight becuase the younger riders and 1st cats just attacked lap after lap but I know this will get me fit.
The 3/4 caught us on more than one occasion after we lapped them but when the hammer went down again 20 seconds opened between races within a lap, this is where it is hard and chasing easy points will not prepare the OP for this, only hard work and racing will do that.
Easy point in a 24mph race is no prep for a 27mph race with slow and fast sections.
If I was him I would enter a few 2,3,4 to try the faster races.
LVRC races are easier than 2,3,4 races without a doubt but they are good races and well worth doing, especially in he OP case.
I do a mixture of both and the LVRC is great value at £8 a race
The OP wants to move up. And I think you've misunderstood my point, or I didn't explain it very well.
I was saying, ride 2/3/4s they're safer and faster, and I don't think the OPs fitness will struggle with them at all. My point is that yes, 2/3/4 races will improve his fitness and by riding in the right way, he will pick up points. However, it could be a slow process and it can be demotivating if every week you're improving and trying harder but just not breaking onto the points. There's nothing wrong with a bit points hunting. After a string of 2/3/4 races, there was nothing on a Thursday night so I went and did a 4th only crit, picked up my 10 points and moved up. It all felt a bit easy, but it achieved the aim. And getting the points gave me a boost. The following week, I was trying to get into the decisive break in a 2nd cat race and the boost from earlier in the week helped motivate me (I didn't make it since you ask).
2nd cats moving up to 1st mix their races between the easier pickings of 2/3/4 races and the harder Elite races. Why shouldn't people lower down the rankings?0 -
JGSI wrote:So no offs on track then
It's not road racing either.. which gives me the better buzz... and my local track is concrete and the thought of downing on that at speed ... sort of does not appeal.
Of course there are, but less likely - you dont have to be accredited to swerve around mindlessly sorry "race" in 4th cat bunch racing. I rode half the Newport TLs this winter and not one crash.0 -
Some great replies, one thing is for sure I was getting over absorbed by 10 points to get to 3rd...a someone said what is the point of scoring easy points won't make me faster...so have entered another couple of 3/4 cat races (Brentor) my last 4th cat only race on Thursday evening followed this routine...strong guy sat on the front for 2 laps and then dies, we all followed, some lunatic 30 second attacks, we all followed, repeat 20 times, we all followed, then 50 guys sprinted for the line, fab! It was quite boring and then quite scary! I think I need to branch out and be less cautious....as one poster said try a few attacks to get in a break and get in some 3/4 and 2/3/4 races. Shortened my long ride this morning and took the pace up a bit.
If nothing else the posts have done my confidence the power of good 0 -
The OP states he wants to move up and be a competative 2nd cat and currently only has one point.monnet wrote:oldwelshman wrote:monnet wrote:Annoying though it is, if you want to move up it's worth looking out for where you can pick up easy points.
234 events are definitely safer and I don't think the fitness issue is quite what you think. Your TT times indicate you have the fitness. I find 234 races are only a couple of mph faster than 34s but are much smoother and less jumpy, which means safer and easier to ride.
I'm a 3rd cat and have no problem sticking with a 234 race, riding in the wheels and conserving energy. My biggest weakness is reading the race. In essence, I'd suggest you take a twofold approach - select races where you think points should be relatively easy to collect and ride 234s to get the extra fitness and comfort in the bunch. And try to race twice a week. Perhaps worry about getting your 2nd cat next year - remember a competitive 2nd cat will be getting results in Elite.
Not sure about this advice.
What is the point of trying to get easy points, which does not make you faster, then get blown out the back in a decent race?
Hiding in the bunch is such a pain in the ars* and these days it seems to be the norm this is why races are slower and less safe in 3/4 as they all have the same idea, stay in the bunch save energy, mad rush tio the front with 1km to go and try to sprint, blow up, then 8 abreast some moving up, others moing back, oh crash.
It is best for the OP to have a go off the front a few times, eventually will get in a break, if others brave to try also.
I would not say 2,3,4 races are allsfaer it depends on the race and the riders, though I would say the racing is less negative and the final stages are safer probably becuase of the highter speed.
TT imes are irrelevent with respect to racing, unless your talking about 30 minutes for a 10 in which case dont race.
It is not always easy to ride and stay in a 2,3,4 race sheltering, some crits I have ridden in were strung out entire race with no bunch, where do you hide then? I was grovelling to hold a wheel for lap after lap tonnight becuase the younger riders and 1st cats just attacked lap after lap but I know this will get me fit.
The 3/4 caught us on more than one occasion after we lapped them but when the hammer went down again 20 seconds opened between races within a lap, this is where it is hard and chasing easy points will not prepare the OP for this, only hard work and racing will do that.
Easy point in a 24mph race is no prep for a 27mph race with slow and fast sections.
If I was him I would enter a few 2,3,4 to try the faster races.
LVRC races are easier than 2,3,4 races without a doubt but they are good races and well worth doing, especially in he OP case.
I do a mixture of both and the LVRC is great value at £8 a race
The OP wants to move up. And I think you've misunderstood my point, or I didn't explain it very well.
I was saying, ride 2/3/4s they're safer and faster, and I don't think the OPs fitness will struggle with them at all. My point is that yes, 2/3/4 races will improve his fitness and by riding in the right way, he will pick up points. However, it could be a slow process and it can be demotivating if every week you're improving and trying harder but just not breaking onto the points. There's nothing wrong with a bit points hunting. After a string of 2/3/4 races, there was nothing on a Thursday night so I went and did a 4th only crit, picked up my 10 points and moved up. It all felt a bit easy, but it achieved the aim. And getting the points gave me a boost. The following week, I was trying to get into the decisive break in a 2nd cat race and the boost from earlier in the week helped motivate me (I didn't make it since you ask).
2nd cats moving up to 1st mix their races between the easier pickings of 2/3/4 races and the harder Elite races. Why shouldn't people lower down the rankings?
This tells me he is currently not strong enough to be a 2nd cat let alone a competative one which means he needs to improve his strenghtand speed,.
This will not be achieved trying to gain easy points. All that will achieve is getting a 3rd cat license. How is he then going to get the ponuts required to obtain 2nd cat if his performance has not improved? If he is struggling to get points at 4th cat and has to get easy points, he will then have to ride 2,3,4 which is harder to get points.
If I was him I would do mixture of 4th cat races and 2,3,4 and try to improve and the points will come with improvement and experience, not by hiding in a bunch forever and not giving it a go.
The main reason some riders mix races at higher level is mainly because of the lack of events at e,1,2 level.
The mnain difference between 1st cat and 2nd is how many races are enterred as most 2nd cat riders are capable strong riders who can also gallop a bit.
There are a lot of second cat riders who make no attempt to become 1st cat as that really limits the number of races you will find.
To be honest it is good that the OP as set a target, but with the other races available other than BCF I would not focus entirely on getting a 2nd cat license as that in itself will limit his options for racing to e,1,23 and 2,3,4. There are far more 3/4 races promoted than higher category races.0 -
Pseudonym wrote:NapoleonD wrote:Anyhoo, this thread is being derailed again with trolling. Those that say 'just get over it' I hope you get over things that easily if they ever happen to you.
I have tried to help the OP with suggestions of intervals.
The likes of P Tucker and Pseudonym are examples of why many people think roadies are knobs. Thoughtless and arrogant.
you say we are 'trolling' and yet you are the one who derailed the thread with an irrelevant and rather melodramatic rant about your own inability to stay upright. Sorry if that comes across as 'thoughtless and arrogant' - but you are coming across as a bit of an attention-seeking cry baby....get over yourself.
Jeez, are you for real?0 -
Oldwelshman - I won't quote everything it's taking up too much space!
I think we fundamentally agree on this, it's just we're talking round we just have slightly differing views of the same thing. I absolutely agree that to get to 2nd cat the OP needs to improve, possibly his fitness level, possibly his tactics, possibly both. I agree that easy points won't necessarily serve him well if that's all they are but...
Riding 2/3/4s will give him a lot of fitness and he will learn a lot about how to ride in a bunch how to position himself and will provide that extra fitness that you don't get in a 4ths only race. However, if you're racing as a struggling 4th cat with 1 point it's unrealistic to expect a leap from that level to picking up points in a Reg A in the space of a season unless there is a lot of untapped natural talent or you get lucky and enter a weak race, in which case it's the same as entering a lower cat race and getting easy points. So, from that perspective riding at the higher level may yield the odd point but it still puts the OP in the same position - a 4th with not many points.
So my twofold suggestion is to learn the skill in the higher category races, get the fitness and strength and then put it into practice in a 3/4 or 4th race to collect points. In this way he's getting fitter and stronger and learning race craft but also picking up points. Ride a few 2/3/4s take the odd kicking but learn a lot, drop down, do a 4ths only and bag 10 points, a few more 2/3/4s or even the E/1/2/3 and see your fitness and skills improve, maybe picking up the odd point then drop down do a couple of 3/4s against weaker opposition and be more confident that you'll pick up points.
You might still disagree but I rode a load of 2/3/4s and got nothing, though I could see myself improving. As a 4th I couldn't see how I'd break into the top 15 of a Reg A looking at the lists of 2nds who were getting the points. With nothing else on, I went to a 4th only, looked at the opposition and thought 'I can race 65miles with 2nds, try a few moves and still finish around the sprint, I can beat this lot'. And I did. Which is basically what I'm recommending. Repeatedly getting kickings, despite improving is bad for morale so mixing it up helps achieve both aims.
Finally, you can only beat what's in front of you - a 4th cat club mate of mine is no athlete but enjoys racing for racing's sake- he picked up 5 points at a 3/4 the other week simply because only 9 riders turned up (there were 45 the week before)
I certainly agree with your recommendation on not focussing too much on getting 2nd cat. Although, TBH, I'm struggling to find 3/4 races at the moment vice 2/3/4s.0 -
Totally agree with everything you say monnet! 100%
I started racing this season. My 1st race was a 3/4 hilly road race. I stayed with the main group for about 4 laps and then dropped off to a group of 5 and managed to finish (about 30 didn't.. if you were 5mins from the main bunch you were out of the race). I've also done a few 3/4 crit races and managed to get a point last week. In these races its very easy to stay in the mani group and very rarely does breakaway group stay away.
I also did a 2/3/4 with an extremely strong presence of 2nd cats. This race was an utter kicking of the highest order. I got spat out the main bunch in the first corner. One hell of a tough race but i finished and it throughly ruined me. ( i was one of only 3 4th cats)
In my experience it's best to mix it up. I don't think I could do a 2/3/4 road race every week. I like using the crit races as training (where i've really developed my racecraft and learnt to push things as I'd rather not waste £12 by sitting in the bunch every week)
It's a shame there's not more 3/4 road races around. Then again if there's varied field of 2/3/4's in a 2/3/4 race then i wouldn't mind. When you enter a 2/3/4 and there's 3 4th cats and 5 3rd cats then it's a different story entirely!0
