4th cat and nearly 40...is there hope!

ilikemybike

Hi, Newbie here...
I have been riding for 10+ years, few races, mostly TT's and a spell of Ironman...This year I decided that it was now or never and I would focus on bunch racing for a few years, solely and exclusively. My goal is to get from 4th to 3rd cat and then next year be competitive as a 2nd cat, however mid season I am struggling a bit. I have 1 point!

My problem is this...not many local 4th cat only races the 3/4 cat races seem to have ex 1st and 2nd cat riders in and I am at the back or off the back and 2/3/4 races, forget it I get spat out straight away! I can ride a 10 in long 22's and on the hour for a 25. If I enter and travel a distance I am afraid t will be in vain but I suppose I need to race more(?) answering my own question and is 8 hrs per week enough...

Am I too old for this lark or is there hope, I really enjoy the adrenaline of racing so hope not. Be interested to hear from any "late bloomers in road racing" and how you approached training, I do about 7-8 hrs per week with 2 hard sessions (or races) included.

sheffsimon

ilikemybike wrote:

Hi, Newbie here...
I have been riding for 10+ years, few races, mostly TT's and a spell of Ironman...This year I decided that it was now or never and I would focus on bunch racing for a few years, solely and exclusively. My goal is to get from 4th to 3rd cat and then next year be competitive as a 2nd cat, however mid season I am struggling a bit. I have 1 point!

My problem is this...not many local 4th cat only races the 3/4 cat races seem to have ex 1st and 2nd cat riders in and I am at the back or off the back and 2/3/4 races, forget it I get spat out straight away! I can ride a 10 in long 22's and on the hour for a 25. If I enter and travel a distance I am afraid t will be in vain but I suppose I need to race more(?) answering my own question and is 8 hrs per week enough...

Am I too old for this lark or is there hope, I really enjoy the adrenaline of racing so hope not. Be interested to hear from any "late bloomers in road racing" and how you approached training, I do about 7-8 hrs per week with 2 hard sessions (or races) included.

8 hours a week is plenty if you use it wisely. What does your training outside of your hard sessions/racing comprise of?

I would guess if you can manage a long 22 for a 10, you have all the stamina/endurance you need for 2/3/4 races. What speed work/short intervals are you doing?

I'm a 41 yr old, not ridden any BC races this year, only TLI, but last year on 7-8hrs a week, held my own in 2/3/4 races so there is hope. Just depends on what you are doing with your 7-8 hrs.

Bronzie

I'm in a very similar position to you (slightly older, slightly slower TT times) and have struggled like mad to get any results in road racing. It's not easy and if you don't have much of a sprint (or the balls to use what you do have), you will find it very hard to pick up points in a 3/4 race.

With regard to training, all you can do is fit in as many hours a week as you can without impacting too much on family or work (I suspect many on here struggle to regularly train over 10 hours a week). Being consistent from week to week is a big step in the right direction (but this doesn't mean do the same training week after week).
Are you making the most of the time available?
What does a typical week's training look like for you?

ilikemybike wrote:

Am I too old for this lark or is there hope, I really enjoy the adrenaline of racing so hope not.

I know how frustrating it is as an "also ran" especially if you put pressure on yourself to achieve your goals, but if you still enjoy it despite not being in the results very often, then why not just carry on enjoying it on that basis?
Have you tried any LVRC events? Whilst I wouldn't describe them as "easier", they are probably a bit steadier in pace with less of the frantic accelerations that can push us oldies over the edge.

kieranb

Well, I moved up from 4th to 3rd cat about 2 years ago (age 38/39) and all of those points were gained in 3/4th cat races. Last year I got a few points as well, this year (41 in July) I have only done one race. There are a few older members in my club who to do much better than me, so I guess it is not too late.

In the last 2 years (not this year) my 'training' consisted of my daily round trip commute of 16 miles, a 1 hour crit on Tuesdays and club run on weekends (70miles) plus a turbo session or two (at most) during the week.

Billy Dunlop

ilikemybike wrote:

Hi, Newbie here...
I have been riding for 10+ years, few races, mostly TT's and a spell of Ironman...This year I decided that it was now or never and I would focus on bunch racing for a few years, solely and exclusively. My goal is to get from 4th to 3rd cat and then next year be competitive as a 2nd cat, however mid season I am struggling a bit. I have 1 point!

My problem is this...not many local 4th cat only races the 3/4 cat races seem to have ex 1st and 2nd cat riders in and I am at the back or off the back and 2/3/4 races, forget it I get spat out straight away! I can ride a 10 in long 22's and on the hour for a 25. If I enter and travel a distance I am afraid t will be in vain but I suppose I need to race more(?) answering my own question and is 8 hrs per week enough...

Am I too old for this lark or is there hope, I really enjoy the adrenaline of racing so hope not. Be interested to hear from any "late bloomers in road racing" and how you approached training, I do about 7-8 hrs per week with 2 hard sessions (or races) included.

Get a coach. They'll get the best out of the 8 hours you have.

Pseudonym

The only problem is your fitness - nothing else. If your target is to become a competitive 2nd cat, then you need to be riding 2/3/4s this year and taking all of the kickings you can get. Sooner or later you will be able to pass on some hurt in 4s or 3/4s.

Wherever you go, there will always be ex-1st cats now riding on 3rd cat licences, you just have to raise your game a bit by the sound of it...

Anonymous

Have a serious think about it.

I'm rueing the day I decided to start racing.

I started last year at 36.

Due to the actions of someone else I'm sat at home with a broken back, collar bone and other muscular injuries.

I still can't even hold my 3 month old baby let alone play with my other two kids or go out for a ride with them.

My career progression is decimated as I was due to go on my firearms course next month. That would have meant I could keep my current, ideal, posting, leading to further progression and I am financially a lot worse off.

I wish I had just stuck to riding round with mates.

Just a cautionary tale for those with careers and families...

I love the sport I really do but, well... It's put me off even riding again.

Billy Dunlop

NapoleonD wrote:

Have a serious think about it.

I'm rueing the day I decided to start racing.

I started last year at 36.

Due to the actions of someone else I'm sat at home with a broken back, collar bone and other muscular injuries.

I still can't even hold my 3 month old baby let alone play with my other two kids or go out for a ride with them.

My career progression is decimated as I was due to go on my firearms course next month. That would have meant I could keep my current, ideal, posting, leading to further progression and I am financially a lot worse off.

I wish I had just stuck to riding round with mates.

Just a cautionary tale for those with careers and families...

I love the sport I really do but, well... It's put me off even riding again.

You're not bitter are you

dawebbo

like most sports there are injury risks. That's just something that you have to accept when you pin your number on. I don't think cycling is inherently dangerous.

Lots of very strong vets, so certainly wouldn't say 40 is anyway near too old.

I wouldn't worry about finding 4th cat only races. Getting your 10 points against weak riders (no offense intended) won't really help you be any more competitive once you go back to the 234 / 34 races.

Pseudonym

NapoleonD wrote:

Have a serious think about it.

I'm rueing the day I decided to start racing.

I started last year at 36.

Due to the actions of someone else I'm sat at home with a broken back, collar bone and other muscular injuries.

I still can't even hold my 3 month old baby let alone play with my other two kids or go out for a ride with them.

My career progression is decimated as I was due to go on my firearms course next month. That would have meant I could keep my current, ideal, posting, leading to further progression and I am financially a lot worse off.

I wish I had just stuck to riding round with mates.

Just a cautionary tale for those with careers and families...

I love the sport I really do but, well... It's put me off even riding again.

time to move on fella - your injuries and subsequent bitterness are not even relevant to this topic...

Zachariah

Jesus Christ Billy, that's got to be one of the most insensitive posts I've ever seen. If you can't add anything more positive to a discussion (and your earlier remark about coaching was good) then don't bother.

I'm 36, just started racing this year and have 9 BC points from seven races. Hope to do at least another 4-5 races this year to get that final one!

Started training just before Christmas and now manage a few hours a week (including extended commutes). I'm just getting to the stage of loathing the turbo/gym bike - it's now a real effort to psyche myself up to train like that.

It can be done but, as I've found out with crits, you have to be a bit bolshy to get in the points if you're not uber-fit with a strong sprint. But there's a fine line between going for results and cycling recklessly. Luckily I've neither caused nor come to harm to harm myself (unless you count a foolish self-inflicted off on a training ride). Even at the grand old age of 40, there's still a lot to learn!

Zachariah

Egad - reading Pseudonym's response as well has me questioning the reading comprehension of you guys. Nap's post is not bitter - just a warning for those entering the world of bike racing, as he said. His posts are still remarkably positive despite the extreme injuries suffered.

If you'd had a crash like that, you'd want to make sure people are aware they're running the same risks, right? Fortunately for us all, those risks are fairly small (and mostly financial rather than physical) and we can make an informed choice whether or not to take them.

Pseudonym

Zachariah wrote:

Egad - reading Pseudonym's response as well has me questioning the reading comprehension of you guys. Nap's post is not bitter - just a warning for those entering the world of bike racing, as he said. His posts are still remarkably positive despite the extreme injuries suffered.

in case you missed it, the OP is already in the world of bike racing - so don't talk to me about 'comprehension'.

This is a thread about how a rider can raise his game to compete in more challenging races - not about whether he should even be racing at all....

ilikemybike

A big Thanks for all of the replies.

Can I just say sorry to read the post about the terrible injuries, left me with a slightly cold feeling, I just wish you as speedy a recovery as possible.

As someone has wisely said in the thread every sport comes with risk time trialling included unfortunately. I have witnessed some very "dodgy" riding in 4th and 3/4 cat races so it is a case of doing all you can to stay "lucky" and being very aware. Any that is another thread entirely...

My training conisists of 4-5 rides a weekly, typically a long ride 3-4 hours (what I call zone 1-2, easyish pace) a tempo ride of say 1.5 hrs, brisk pace and throw in a few sprints, a "race" training session of 1 hr on a closed circuit usually way out of any zones (!) as it is mixed categories and generally hell for leather for an hour plus some easy spins on rollers for recovery - adding up to about 8hrs...writing it down I may be answering my own question...maybe too long and too easy on the long ride and more race pace / threshold type work needed?

I think there is a TLI league or at least there was near Wareham (Dorset)...will investigate.

jgsi

I think TLI is fairly active Dorset way - check the events handbook on website for details:.


http://www.tlicycling.org.uk/EventsCale ... 09/06/2011

Anonymous

It was just a cautionary tale.

If it were me I'd forget doing the 4s only, stick to 234 races as that's what you'll be racing against anyway and the standard of riders tends to be better.

You should be fine on 8hrs per week unless you want to race on longer road races. Then you'll need to do some longer rides.

For an idea of suitable intervals try these out-
2 sets of 4x4mins just above threshold 4mins rest between intervals, 10 mins rest between sets.

2-4 sets x 10 min 'chaingang efforts'- 20secs hard, 40secs 'tempo' repeat for the 10 mins. 5 mins recovery between sets.

3-4 sets x 10 mins sweetspot 5 mins between sets

Anonymous

Oh, and btw. 'pseudonym' joined this forum having followed a direct link to a now closed thread about the crash. His first posts were just having a go at me basically. I ignore his sentiments.

monnet

Annoying though it is, if you want to move up it's worth looking out for where you can pick up easy points. If you're fit and you turn up at a 4th cat only circuit race on a Monday night, there's a good chance of picking up points. By contrast, picking what's likely to be a popular 4th cat only event is going to increase the risk of coming across irresponsible riders. Age shouldn't be an issue yet, you might struggle with rapid accelerations from juniors but you should have the power to balance that out. Some of the strongest riders I know are in their 40s.

234 events are definitely safer and I don't think the fitness issue is quite what you think. Your TT times indicate you have the fitness. I find 234 races are only a couple of mph faster than 34s but are much smoother and less jumpy, which means safer and easier to ride.

It doesn't sound like you necessarily need a coach, just practice at riding in a bunch. Those 3 cats who were riding elite 2 years ago are winning races as much because they know how to position themselves in a bunch and can read a race better - which comes from practice.

I'm a 3rd cat and have no problem sticking with a 234 race, riding in the wheels and conserving energy. My biggest weakness is reading the race. In essence, I'd suggest you take a twofold approach - select races where you think points should be relatively easy to collect and ride 234s to get the extra fitness and comfort in the bunch. And try to race twice a week. Perhaps worry about getting your 2nd cat next year - remember a competitive 2nd cat will be getting results in Elite.

Herbsman

dawebbo wrote:

I wouldn't worry about finding 4th cat only races. Getting your 10 points against weak riders (no offense intended) won't really help you be any more competitive once you go back to the 234 / 34 races.

True, there's not much satisfaction to be gained from beating other 4th cat riders. If you win a 4 race you could have just been lucky on the day and becoming a 3rd cat doesn't mean you've become faster. I'd stick to 3/4 races anyway as they tend not to amble along like a Sunday club run

Pseudonym

NapoleonD wrote:

Oh, and btw. 'pseudonym' joined this forum having followed a direct link to a now closed thread about the crash. His first posts were just having a go at me basically. I ignore his sentiments.

that's not really fair. I wasn't having a go at you - just your contention that cycle racing should be made safer just because you happen to have had a crash.

Strange as it may seem, you are not the first person to crash during a race - and you certainly won't be the last. Presumably you were aware of the risks when you lined up, so just live with it....

Tom Butcher

I'd definitely try some LVRCs - not easy races by any means but probably easier than 2/3/4s and tend to be smaller field sizes - I think 80 that BC allow is really too many for you normal amateur races though having organised a few you do need pretty much that many to break even.

I'd probably also try some 4th only races if you can find any just to get some points - it's nice just to move up a cat isn't it even if you do it the easy way - but agree 2/3/4s will teach you a lot more and feel a lot safer.

P_Tucker

Pseudonym wrote:

NapoleonD wrote:

Oh, and btw. 'pseudonym' joined this forum having followed a direct link to a now closed thread about the crash. His first posts were just having a go at me basically. I ignore his sentiments.

that's not really fair. I wasn't having a go at you - just your contention that cycle racing should be made safer just because you happen to have had a crash.

Strange as it may seem, you are not the first person to crash during a race - and you certainly won't be the last. Presumably you were aware of the risks when you lined up, so just live with it....

Agree. I've been racing for 8 years, and I've only had one crash that kept me off my bike for longer than two days. Nap was just unlucky and doesn't seem to have managed to get over it.

Anonymous

No. I haven't got over my broken back, broken collar bone, concussion, loss of earnings, loss of potential earnings, loss of contact with my baby. Loss of fun times with my older kids.

You're right.

If it was a pure accident rather than a daft manouevre it wouldn't be so bad. The problem with 4th cat races rather than, say, LVRC is that you have impetuous youngsters who ride badly causing said crashes.

I've only done about 8 races due to shifts/family after starting last year.

I have actually *seen* crashes in 3 and been in one myself. Not a good hit rate IMO.

Anyhoo, this thread is being derailed again with trolling. Those that say 'just get over it' I hope you get over things that easily if they ever happen to you.

I have tried to help the OP with suggestions of intervals.

The likes of P Tucker and Pseudonym are examples of why many people think roadies are knobs. Thoughtless and arrogant.

Bronzie

ilikemybike wrote:

I may be answering my own question...maybe too long and too easy on the long ride and more race pace / threshold type work needed?

I'd agree with that - focus on improving your power at threshold (the workouts NapD gives are good for this) and cut the long ride down a bit or just do one every other week.

Good luck with it.

P_Tucker

Maybe you should have thought of all these potential downsides before you entered into the arena of death that is a 4th cat race? No-one forced you to enter, you did so at your own risk, knowing that the field is likely to be full of dangerous muppets.

By the way, income protection insurance is great at helping with the loss of earnings bit. Can't believe anyone would race without it TBH.

Pseudonym

NapoleonD wrote:

Anyhoo, this thread is being derailed again with trolling. Those that say 'just get over it' I hope you get over things that easily if they ever happen to you.

I have tried to help the OP with suggestions of intervals.

The likes of P Tucker and Pseudonym are examples of why many people think roadies are knobs. Thoughtless and arrogant.

you say we are 'trolling' and yet you are the one who derailed the thread with an irrelevant and rather melodramatic rant about your own inability to stay upright. Sorry if that comes across as 'thoughtless and arrogant' - but you are coming across as a bit of an attention-seeking cry baby....get over yourself.

appletrees

I've just started dabbling in road racingagain after over 10 years off, and I'm 40 this year.

I found it hard 10 years ago, and I'm finding it hard again this time. I have always done a lot of timetrialling (pbs 22.34 for a 10 and 56.14 for a 25) and have also done some tri's in between. The problem, I suspect, is that like me, you're the cycling equivalent of a diesel engine - you take a little while to get up to speed, but once you're there you can sustain it well, but if asked to accelerate sharply and repeatedly, you'll struggle. Road racing requires a bit more of a "petrol" approach - you need to be better adapted to the accelerations and slow spells.
I'm once again finding that the average speed of the races is similar to, or often lower than I can sustain in a TT, but one minute you're pootling along at 16mph, the next it's 30mph+, which is certainly not how I ride a tt.
As NapD said, you'll need to tailor your training to adapt to this - intervals being the key, rather than just riding hard all the time, which works for tt's. Try fitting in an hour once a week, going fairly hard for a couple of minutes, flat out for 30 secs or so and then have a couple of mins recovery and then repeat. As the weeks go by, decrease the recovery time to about a minute...

Add in a weekly road race and you'll be fine. Just be patient and it'll all come together.

Billy Dunlop

P_Tucker wrote:

Maybe you should have thought of all these potential downsides before you entered into the arena of death that is a 4th cat race? No-one forced you to enter, you did so at your own risk, knowing that the field is likely to be full of dangerous muppets.

By the way, income protection insurance is great at helping with the loss of earnings bit. Can't believe anyone would race without it TBH.

+1

It's a bit like a soldier moaning that he got shot at.

Billy Dunlop

Anyway back to the OP

There are loads of people giving some decent advice on here but as I pointed out earlier the best person to get you achieving your goals is a coach.

OK they will cost money but pound for pound they are the best money you can spend on your sport. Much better than paying money for trick carbon bits etc

amaferanga

If you're a 4th Cat and you want to make 3rd Cat you need to be one of the best 4th Cats around (or just get lucky). Similarly, if you're a 3rd Cat and you want to make 2nd Cat you need to be one of the best 3rd Cats around (or get lucky several times). Simple as that.

So if you can't mix it with and score points in 3rd/4th races then you're just not good enough to be a 2nd Cat. Whether you just need to train harder/smarter no-one knows but you, but with long 22min 10's you should be more than capable of holding your own in even a 2nd/3rd/4th Cat race - certainly you shouldn't be getting spat out the back as there will be plenty of 3rd/4th Cats finishing the race in the bunch.

Maybe its the changes in pace that you struggle with? Your FTP must be very good compared to most 3rd/4th Cats even so you should make the most of it and attack. Once you're in a break the pace should be more constant so you'd be playing to what would appear to be your strength.

And I don't buy the excuse about there being all these guys that were 1st or 2nd Cats dominating your races - if they were that good they wouldn't be 3rd Cats! And anyway, these are the guys that you want to be competing with next year so they shouldn't be leaving you in their trail unless you're going to make some dramatic improvement come next year.

I'm kind of in the same situation as you, only things are going a bit better for me. I'm doing a combination of 3rd/4th Cat races (where I'm consistently scoring points) and 2nd/3rd/4th Cat races where I'm not having so much success, but I'm more than comfortable in the bunch (lack of success is more often than not down to my tactical muppetry and probably a lack of belief in myself). I'd recommend you do the same with the aim of scoring points in the 3rd/4th Cat races and at least a bunch finish in the 2nd/3rd/4th Cat races. Then next season aim to be competitive against 2nd Cats and if you are you should be capable of moving up a category.

kieranb

With regards to NapD's thread and related comments. I used to do the 4th cat only at the Chertsey MOD course in the hope of getting points but only managed to get injured which ruined a family holiday. Decided to stick to Palace and 3/4ths at Hog HIll, the racing there was much safer and harder.

I would say that cycling in a race is like commuting, it's mainly the muppets who make it dangerous and you'll probably find these more in 4th cat and bunch finishes. But just as if you were hit by a car whilst commuting, should one just shrug their shoulders and accept it as part and parcel of commuting?