What core strength/non bike exercises do you do?

2

Comments

  • P_Tucker
    P_Tucker Posts: 1,878
    Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
    trickydisco wrote:
    Cycling lots will develop the core sufficiently to manage cycling a lot just like it does for all the muscles used - it's not like this magical group of muscles that don't behave like all the others in our body. If you want to do non-bike core work for other reasons, cool.

    So are you saying if you cycle you don't need to do any core strengthening work off the bike as riding will do this?
    No. If you need core strength for activities other than bike riding (which is what the OP was about I thought), then off the bike core work will be helpful. No argument there.

    What I am saying is:

    i. for most* people, off the bike core work won't improve endurance cycling performance (it won't hinder it either - unless it eats into valuable on bike training time - especially those for whom endurance cycling performance is the priority)

    ii. endurance cycling is not a strength sport (the forces are significantly sub-maximal), so a focus on strength is a folly

    iii. that endurance cycling exercises (e.g. hillclimbs, hard tempo, intervals, sprints, endurance rides etc) will provide the core (and all the relevant muscle groups) with the stimulus needed to improve cycling performance, since it is being provided in a sports specific manner

    iv. the best training for improving cycling performance is cycling

    * there are some of course that have specific issues of frailty or injury that needs addressing and for whom such exercise would be useful

    Why do you do it to yourself? You must have addressed the same daft fallacies a hundred times.
  • Headhuunter
    Headhuunter Posts: 6,494
    Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
    trickydisco wrote:
    Cycling lots will develop the core sufficiently to manage cycling a lot just like it does for all the muscles used - it's not like this magical group of muscles that don't behave like all the others in our body. If you want to do non-bike core work for other reasons, cool.

    So are you saying if you cycle you don't need to do any core strengthening work off the bike as riding will do this?
    No. If you need core strength for activities other than bike riding (which is what the OP was about I thought), then off the bike core work will be helpful. No argument there.

    What I am saying is:

    i. for most* people, off the bike core work won't improve endurance cycling performance (it won't hinder it either - unless it eats into valuable on bike training time - especially those for whom endurance cycling performance is the priority)

    ii. endurance cycling is not a strength sport (the forces are significantly sub-maximal), so a focus on strength is a folly

    iii. that endurance cycling exercises (e.g. hillclimbs, hard tempo, intervals, sprints, endurance rides etc) will provide the core (and all the relevant muscle groups) with the stimulus needed to improve cycling performance, since it is being provided in a sports specific manner

    iv. the best training for improving cycling performance is cycling

    * there are some of course that have specific issues of frailty or injury that needs addressing and for whom such exercise would be useful


    I'm afraid none of your graphs or above points have addressed the issue at hand - whether core strength helps counter balance power pushed through the legs. I don't really care the level of wattage output etc etc, the fact remains that a strong core will help counter balance the power (however strong or weak) pushing through the legs, especially over a long endurance ride.

    You clearly have no proof for the above points, they are simply opinions. I must admit I have no enduring proof for my belief either, just personal experience and what I've read. However as you point out, strengthening the core will not hinder cycling performance and unless you spend every waking hour on the bike, I doubt some all round gym strength exercises cannot be integrated into yuor schedule....
    Do not write below this line. Office use only.
  • Alex_Simmons/RST
    Alex_Simmons/RST Posts: 4,161
    Headhuunter wrote:
    I'm afraid none of your graphs or above points have addressed the issue at hand - whether core strength helps counter balance power pushed through the legs. I don't really care the level of wattage output etc etc, the fact remains that a strong core will help counter balance the power (however strong or weak) pushing through the legs, especially over a long endurance ride.
    But they do. They demonstrate that the forces involved are quite low, that strength is not required to ride powerfully and that "core strength" isn't a limiter to endurance cycling performance.

    Endurance and strength are not related.
    RST Sport : Coaching - Training Plans - Powermeters -- My blog -- AeroCoach Australia
  • Headhuunter
    Headhuunter Posts: 6,494
    Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
    Headhuunter wrote:
    I'm afraid none of your graphs or above points have addressed the issue at hand - whether core strength helps counter balance power pushed through the legs. I don't really care the level of wattage output etc etc, the fact remains that a strong core will help counter balance the power (however strong or weak) pushing through the legs, especially over a long endurance ride.
    But they do. They demonstrate that the forces involved are quite low, that strength is not required to ride powerfully and that "core strength" isn't a limiter to endurance cycling performance.

    Endurance and strength are not related.

    I didn't say endurance and strength were the same, I said that a strong core helps counterbalance the forces (however strong) pushed up through the body by your legs, especially over a long ride...
    Do not write below this line. Office use only.
  • Alex_Simmons/RST
    Alex_Simmons/RST Posts: 4,161
    P_Tucker wrote:
    Why do you do it to yourself? You must have addressed the same daft fallacies a hundred times.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgYEuJ5u1K0
    RST Sport : Coaching - Training Plans - Powermeters -- My blog -- AeroCoach Australia
  • Headhuunter
    Headhuunter Posts: 6,494
    Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
    Headhuunter wrote:
    The number of times I see people discussing back pain on these pages and I wonder to myself whether it could have been solved by ongoing strengthening. Of course this may not always be the case, but in my experience, cyclists are all too quick to believe that any pain is down to not having the latest component on their bike, or not having paid up for a bike fit, or not having the right saddle or the right frame geometry when all they need to do is a bit more work on the engine that drives the machine - their bodies.
    The biggest causes of (non crash) injury in cycling are poor bike fit and attempting to do more training (acutely or chronically) than a rider is ready/prepared for.

    I wonder if anyone has really done any analysis to prove this.... I am not doubting that a well fitted bike with components that work for you is important, however in my experience, cyclists spend a lot more time tinkering with their bikes, raising and dropping the seat by 2mm, adding a few mm to reach etc etc that they do actually strengthening and stretching their bodies... I just think a bit of balance would be beneficial.
    Do not write below this line. Office use only.
  • Alex_Simmons/RST
    Alex_Simmons/RST Posts: 4,161
    Headhuunter wrote:
    Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
    Headhuunter wrote:
    The number of times I see people discussing back pain on these pages and I wonder to myself whether it could have been solved by ongoing strengthening. Of course this may not always be the case, but in my experience, cyclists are all too quick to believe that any pain is down to not having the latest component on their bike, or not having paid up for a bike fit, or not having the right saddle or the right frame geometry when all they need to do is a bit more work on the engine that drives the machine - their bodies.
    The biggest causes of (non crash) injury in cycling are poor bike fit and attempting to do more training (acutely or chronically) than a rider is ready/prepared for.

    I wonder if anyone has really done any analysis to prove this.... I am not doubting that a well fitted bike with components that work for you is important, however in my experience, cyclists spend a lot more time tinkering with their bikes, raising and dropping the seat by 2mm, adding a few mm to reach etc etc that they do actually strengthening and stretching their bodies... I just think a bit of balance would be beneficial.
    Yes, there has been research, although off top of my head, I can't quote the sources. Kiwicoach Hamish would probably remember better than me.

    Get the fit right to start with, you are more comfortable when riding, and will be able to cycle for longer and more often, and in turn fitness improves (along with the core muscles needed).

    Again, I'm not saying don't do core strength work. Just keeping a lid on the "it will improve endurance cycling performance" line of reasoning.
    RST Sport : Coaching - Training Plans - Powermeters -- My blog -- AeroCoach Australia
  • huuregeil
    huuregeil Posts: 780
    Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
    Yes, there has been research, although off top of my head, I can't quote the sources. Kiwicoach Hamish would probably remember better than me.

    Yes, there has been research (also can't remember the sources - I posted this a while ago) but the issue is that "overuse" in the literature is a catch-all that includes all non-acute injury, thus is also contains the subset of people who might have accumulated injuries through e.g muscular imbalances (which are neither solved by fit nor on-bike training) rather than simply fit/fitness issues per se.
  • rock_hopper
    rock_hopper Posts: 129
    Interesting debate going on here. I'm not going to say I know this and that about core/strength and it's benefits on cycling performance but since the winter I have done 20 minutes dedicated core work 3 times a week and it has significantly reduced my back pain when racing/riding hard. I pulled out of some races due to back pain last year but haven't had any problems this year.

    I suppose it comes down to the individual, for me core exercises really worked, for another rider it might not make any difference at all.
  • huuregeil
    huuregeil Posts: 780
    rock_hopper wrote:
    I suppose it comes down to the individual, for me core exercises really worked, for another rider it might not make any difference at all.

    Quite, different people might have different functional issues to resolve, or none at all. But the high incidence of knee and lower back pain among cyclists suggests all is not entirely right with existing approaches to training (both on and off bike) and bike fit.
  • P_Tucker
    P_Tucker Posts: 1,878
    rock_hopper wrote:
    Interesting debate going on here. I'm not going to say I know this and that about core/strength and it's benefits on cycling performance but since the winter I have done 20 minutes dedicated core work 3 times a week and it has significantly reduced my back pain when racing/riding hard. I pulled out of some races due to back pain last year but haven't had any problems this year.

    I suppose it comes down to the individual, for me core exercises really worked, for another rider it might not make any difference at all.

    No-one is saying if you have some definite issue that causes pain or similar that can be resolved by core strength work, that this won't help your cycling. The question is whether, for a normal inujry-free cyclist, will extra core strength help him cycle faster? The answer is of course no.
  • Headhuunter
    Headhuunter Posts: 6,494
    P_Tucker wrote:
    rock_hopper wrote:
    Interesting debate going on here. I'm not going to say I know this and that about core/strength and it's benefits on cycling performance but since the winter I have done 20 minutes dedicated core work 3 times a week and it has significantly reduced my back pain when racing/riding hard. I pulled out of some races due to back pain last year but haven't had any problems this year.

    I suppose it comes down to the individual, for me core exercises really worked, for another rider it might not make any difference at all.

    No-one is saying if you have some definite issue that causes pain or similar that can be resolved by core strength work, that this won't help your cycling. The question is whether, for a normal inujry-free cyclist, will extra core strength help him cycle faster? The answer is of course no.

    I think you mean the answer is yes....
    Do not write below this line. Office use only.
  • Alex_Simmons/RST
    Alex_Simmons/RST Posts: 4,161
    Headhuunter wrote:
    P_Tucker wrote:
    The question is whether, for a normal inujry-free cyclist, will extra core strength help him cycle faster? The answer is of course no.

    I think you mean the answer is yes....
    How? It's an aerobic sport, not a strength sport. Our limiters are aerobic metabolic in nature (fundamentally the rate of ATP production/turnover). We are simply not force limited.
    RST Sport : Coaching - Training Plans - Powermeters -- My blog -- AeroCoach Australia
  • Mccaria
    Mccaria Posts: 869
    Alex,

    What about when you have a high proportion of climbing on your rides, so that you are spending a disproportionate amount of your time either back in the saddle or out of the saddle.?

    I can see how core exercises will not have a material affect on relatively flat runs when you maintain a balanced position, but in the hills when you are putting extra strain on your back and incorporating other muscle groups when out of the saddle ?
  • Headhuunter
    Headhuunter Posts: 6,494
    Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
    Headhuunter wrote:
    P_Tucker wrote:
    The question is whether, for a normal inujry-free cyclist, will extra core strength help him cycle faster? The answer is of course no.

    I think you mean the answer is yes....
    How? It's an aerobic sport, not a strength sport. Our limiters are aerobic metabolic in nature (fundamentally the rate of ATP production/turnover). We are simply not force limited.

    God. We've already had this argument and it seems neither of us is convinced by the other and I can't be bothered to repeat myself...
    Do not write below this line. Office use only.
  • Richa1181
    Richa1181 Posts: 177
    Core strength won't make you faster but it will improve your cycling by way of sorting out your bike handling.

    If your knees go out at at angles and your torso starts twisting when you give it some beans then you very much need to bring your core up to speed with the rest of your body. You may get some small gains in efficiency with improved technique but i doubt anyone ever won a race due to an amazing six pack!

    I do the odd pull up and pick up some weights every once in a while but mainly because my arms wouldn't be doing much otherwise. I don't think it has any benefit to riding my bike
  • Alex_Simmons/RST
    Alex_Simmons/RST Posts: 4,161
    Mccaria wrote:
    Alex,

    What about when you have a high proportion of climbing on your rides, so that you are spending a disproportionate amount of your time either back in the saddle or out of the saddle.?

    I can see how core exercises will not have a material affect on relatively flat runs when you maintain a balanced position, but in the hills when you are putting extra strain on your back and incorporating other muscle groups when out of the saddle ?
    So do you think that muscles used when climbing are not getting the stimulus needed to adapt and better handle the requirements of future such efforts?

    Climbing is a great core workout that's specific to on bike performance. As are hard tempo rides, sprints (seat and standing), threshold and supra threshold intervals and so on.

    If you want to improve you body's ability to handle more climbing, guess what? Do more climbing. But like all training - do it in a progressive sustainable overload manner. If you attempt to do more than you are ready for (acutely or chronically), well that's when soreness and possibly overuse injury can occur.

    What makes people think core musculature so completely and utterly different to every other muscle group that it behaves differently when given a sports specific stimulus, such that it doesn't adapt to (try and) meet future such demands and requires non-sport specific stimulus to improve on-bike performance?
    RST Sport : Coaching - Training Plans - Powermeters -- My blog -- AeroCoach Australia
  • P_Tucker
    P_Tucker Posts: 1,878
    Headhuunter wrote:
    Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
    Headhuunter wrote:
    P_Tucker wrote:
    The question is whether, for a normal inujry-free cyclist, will extra core strength help him cycle faster? The answer is of course no.

    I think you mean the answer is yes....
    How? It's an aerobic sport, not a strength sport. Our limiters are aerobic metabolic in nature (fundamentally the rate of ATP production/turnover). We are simply not force limited.

    God. We've already had this argument and it seems neither of us is convinced by the other and I can't be bothered to repeat myself...

    Yeah, but he's a qualified coach.
  • Alex_Simmons/RST
    Alex_Simmons/RST Posts: 4,161
    Headhuunter wrote:
    Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
    Headhuunter wrote:
    P_Tucker wrote:
    The question is whether, for a normal inujry-free cyclist, will extra core strength help him cycle faster? The answer is of course no.

    I think you mean the answer is yes....
    How? It's an aerobic sport, not a strength sport. Our limiters are aerobic metabolic in nature (fundamentally the rate of ATP production/turnover). We are simply not force limited.

    God. We've already had this argument and it seems neither of us is convinced by the other and I can't be bothered to repeat myself...
    Repeat what - that the forces are enormous, when I've clearly demonstrated they are not?
    That strength (core or otherwise) is a limiter needing non-specific training to improve cycling performance?
    RST Sport : Coaching - Training Plans - Powermeters -- My blog -- AeroCoach Australia
  • Alex_Simmons/RST
    Alex_Simmons/RST Posts: 4,161
    P_Tucker wrote:
    Yeah, but he's a qualified coach.
    While that's true, like anecdotes, my qualifications are not necessarily something that should be used in support of my statements - evidence and facts are what I prefer.
    RST Sport : Coaching - Training Plans - Powermeters -- My blog -- AeroCoach Australia
  • P_Tucker
    P_Tucker Posts: 1,878
    Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
    P_Tucker wrote:
    Yeah, but he's a qualified coach.
    While that's true, like anecdotes, my qualifications are not necessarily something that should be used in support of my statements - evidence and facts are what I prefer.

    If people listened to evidence and facts then they wouldn't believe the kind of bolleaux that's being spouted on here.
  • Headhuunter
    Headhuunter Posts: 6,494
    P_Tucker wrote:
    Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
    P_Tucker wrote:
    Yeah, but he's a qualified coach.
    While that's true, like anecdotes, my qualifications are not necessarily something that should be used in support of my statements - evidence and facts are what I prefer.

    If people listened to evidence and facts then they wouldn't believe the kind of bolleaux that's being spouted on here.
    #

    But there has been no evidence, admittedly on either side! Alex Simmons has produced some wonderful graphs about power output etc, but nothing to tell me that improving my core strength won't help my cycling.... Coach or no, there is still no evidence....
    Do not write below this line. Office use only.
  • Alex_Simmons/RST
    Alex_Simmons/RST Posts: 4,161
    Headhuunter wrote:
    But there has been no evidence, admittedly on either side! Alex Simmons has produced some wonderful graphs about power output etc, but nothing to tell me that improving my core strength won't help my cycling.... Coach or no, there is still no evidence....
    So since there is no evidence, how can you make the claims you do?

    I have produced evidence (as well as some basic physics) to debunk the primary assertion supporting your claim (that of the forces involved in pedaling a bicycle). Since the fundamental basis of your claim doesn't stack up, where does that leave the claim?

    The onus is on you to prove your assertion that non-bike core strength work enhances endurance cycling performance. There ain't much however I'm afraid. Of course absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, however it doesn't look good so far....

    A review and info from journals other than "Strength & Conditioning Research" might help. Here's a start:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19026017
    RST Sport : Coaching - Training Plans - Powermeters -- My blog -- AeroCoach Australia
  • Headhuunter
    Headhuunter Posts: 6,494
    Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
    Headhuunter wrote:
    But there has been no evidence, admittedly on either side! Alex Simmons has produced some wonderful graphs about power output etc, but nothing to tell me that improving my core strength won't help my cycling.... Coach or no, there is still no evidence....
    So since there is no evidence, how can you make the claims you do?

    I have produced evidence (as well as some basic physics) to debunk the primary assertion supporting your claim (that of the forces involved in pedaling a bicycle). Since the fundamental basis of your claim doesn't stack up, where does that leave the claim?

    The onus is on you to prove your assertion that non-bike core strength work enhances endurance cycling performance. There ain't much however I'm afraid. Of course absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, however it doesn't look good so far....

    A review and info from journals other than "Strength & Conditioning Research" might help. Here's a start:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19026017

    No, you have produced some graphs to illustrate power output in cycling, nothing to do with counterbalancing that power with strong core muscles. Nothing has been "debunked"... Admittedly I need to produce evidence but the onus is equally on you as you have stated that the only exercise necessary to improve cycling is cycling. I disagree and believe that all round strengthening of the body helps.

    Here are a few links with quotes from people who believe that core strength helps in cycling

    http://www.bicycling.com/training-nutri ... e?page=0,0
    "You can have all the leg strength in the world, but without a stable core you won't be able to use it efficiently," says Graeme Street, founder of Cyclo-CORE, a DVD-based training program, and a personal trainer in Essex, Connecticut. "It's like having the body of a Ferrari with a Fiat chassis underneath."

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/ ... h-training
    ""The core, or trunk area, is key for posture, because on a bike so much time is spent bent over and, over time, injuries related to posture can appear in cyclists," says Mark.

    "Working on the core also makes riding more efficient, because you reduce instability on the bike and, more significantly, it can assist in the transfer of power through the kinetic chain that runs from the hands, holding the bars, to the pedals.

    Core work can also help in getting into an aerodynamic position and holding it: you reduce the back's tendency to over-arch, which in turn can help make a cyclist more aerodynamic and more powerful." "
    [Olympic gold medallist Jamie Staff .... by his coach Mark Simpson. ]

    http://www.roadcycling.com/training/tim ... ngth.shtml
    "In the last few years, there has been a big increase in the emphasis on strengthening the "core" of the body. The body's core, which includes the back and abdominal muscles, can be a weak link for many time trialists. Because of the extended aerodynamic positions, cyclists may be able to generate ideal power early in the event, but then low back fatigue and pain contribute to a loss of power. Most riders give away significant pedal power because of weak low back and abdominal muscles.

    The legs perform most of the work in cycling, but a strong core will increase stability on the bike and increase power transfer to the pedals. In addition, a strong lower back will allow you to remain in a more aerodynamic position for longer periods of time without discomfort."
    [Kathy Zawadzki, CTS Certified Coach]

    http://www.cycling-fitness-center.com/S ... ining.aspx
    "Cyclists should incorporate strength training into their workout routines for all around balanced strength. Cycling itself generates tremendous leg strength but does not develop the upper body or core muscles."
    Do not write below this line. Office use only.
  • Pokerface
    Pokerface Posts: 7,960
    ^--- While I applaud your efforts to sell the whole 'core is important' idea (and personally DO work out my core - but due to intrinsic weaknesses), aren't many, if not all of your quotes are from people trying to sell core workouts (DVDs, training plans, etc)?

    They don't seem to be impartial observers of the debate.
  • Headhuunter
    Headhuunter Posts: 6,494
    Pokerface wrote:
    ^--- While I applaud your efforts to sell the whole 'core is important' idea (and personally DO work out my core - but due to intrinsic weaknesses), aren't many, if not all of your quotes are from people trying to sell core workouts (DVDs, training plans, etc)?

    They don't seem to be impartial observers of the debate.

    OK, 1, possibly 2 out of 4 seem to have something to sell... Hardly "all"....
    Do not write below this line. Office use only.
  • Headhuunter
    Headhuunter Posts: 6,494
    Pokerface wrote:
    ^--- While I applaud your efforts to sell the whole 'core is important' idea (and personally DO work out my core - but due to intrinsic weaknesses), aren't many, if not all of your quotes are from people trying to sell core workouts (DVDs, training plans, etc)?

    They don't seem to be impartial observers of the debate.

    The question is, why do you work out your core? You say that this is due to intrinsic weakness, but according to others on this thread, core weakness is irrelevant anyway and all you need to do is get on the bike and it will naturally get stronger. If core strength is irrelevant, why are you trying to strengthen it?
    Do not write below this line. Office use only.
  • Alex_Simmons/RST
    Alex_Simmons/RST Posts: 4,161
    Pokerface wrote:
    ^--- While I applaud your efforts to sell the whole 'core is important' idea (and personally DO work out my core - but due to intrinsic weaknesses), aren't many, if not all of your quotes are from people trying to sell core workouts (DVDs, training plans, etc)?

    They don't seem to be impartial observers of the debate.
    Worse - it's a logical fallacy known as an "appeal to authority".

    Peoples "beliefs" still isn't evidence.
    RST Sport : Coaching - Training Plans - Powermeters -- My blog -- AeroCoach Australia
  • Headhuunter
    Headhuunter Posts: 6,494
    Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
    Pokerface wrote:
    ^--- While I applaud your efforts to sell the whole 'core is important' idea (and personally DO work out my core - but due to intrinsic weaknesses), aren't many, if not all of your quotes are from people trying to sell core workouts (DVDs, training plans, etc)?

    They don't seem to be impartial observers of the debate.
    Worse - it's a logical fallacy known as an "appeal to authority".

    Peoples "beliefs" still isn't evidence.

    Still not a lot of evidence from your side that "all you need to do is ride"... Ho hum...
    Do not write below this line. Office use only.
  • Alex_Simmons/RST
    Alex_Simmons/RST Posts: 4,161
    Headhuunter wrote:
    No, you have produced some graphs to illustrate power output in cycling, nothing to do with counterbalancing that power with strong core muscles. Nothing has been "debunked"... Admittedly I need to produce evidence but the onus is equally on you as you have stated that the only exercise necessary to improve cycling is cycling. I disagree and believe that all round strengthening of the body helps.
    1. I have demonstrated with both physics and evidence that the forces in endurance cycling are low, and as such strength is not a limiter.

    2. I have provided a link to a scientific review of the available evidence of core strength work and it does not support the notion that it is an aid to endurance performance

    3. I have never said the only exercise necessary to improve cycling, is cycling. I have said that by far the best exercise for improving cycling is cycling.
    RST Sport : Coaching - Training Plans - Powermeters -- My blog -- AeroCoach Australia

Categories