When Margaret Thatcher Dies....

finchy

Dgh wrote:

Greed, when combined with the rule of law, doesn't produce any of the things you say it does. Greed enables people to get the basic needs of life and the odd luxury too. It rewards those who provide us with those things. Greed offers us something in exchange for our money. The state gets our money through the threat of imprisonment if we don't pay up.

The state gives us, in exchange for our money, healthcare, education, police................ It's not like you get nothing for your taxes

Dgh wrote:

Re concentration camps, the point is, they, and most of the other truly bad things in life, come when people start claiming to act in the name of a supposed common good. Whether it's the nation, the social class, the race, whatever, the moment people start to act in the name of the group, they necessarily deny the right of individual members of the group to disagree with it. Those are the people who end up in the gulag. That's why no-one ever built a gulag in the name of individual freedom. And individual freedom was Mrs T's most fundamental belief.

Stalin, Hitler, Mao-Tse Tung etc are extreme examples, and as you have hinted they were only CLAIMING to be acting in the interest of the group.

I believe that this is a mistake of certain types of Conservatism/Liberalism - to deny the existence of the group, when humans are actually group animals. We exist as a group without which we would find it very difficult to survive. A balance between individual liberties and the common good might be a tricky concept, but that doesn't mean that we should just dismiss any type of collective ideology.

rick_chasey

johnfinch wrote:

Dgh wrote:

Greed, when combined with the rule of law, doesn't produce any of the things you say it does. Greed enables people to get the basic needs of life and the odd luxury too. It rewards those who provide us with those things. Greed offers us something in exchange for our money. The state gets our money through the threat of imprisonment if we don't pay up.

The state gives us, in exchange for our money, healthcare, education, police................ It's not like you get nothing for your taxes

Indeed. Taxes are basically the gov't way of deciding what you spend your money on rather than you.

You're still buying stuff. It's just not necessarily what you'd spend it on. You do however have a say on how it's decided.

Frank the tank

The utilities were sold off on the cheap and they're now in the hands of foriegn companies, not a good situation. I believe all the utilities should be used for the national good providing them at a cost that allows for investment in plant/equipment etc without having to make excess profits to pay shareholders.

They should be a service.

I've nothing against private enterprise, but certain things should be provided in the national interest. I'd sooner the utilities be government funded out of my tax pound than be in the pockets of foriegn powers.

One Man And His Bike

Dgh wrote:

Think how ridiculous that would be! Lock people up and force them to do whatever they want!

Shhh, the British Prison Service may hear you!

rake

Frank the tank wrote:

The utilities were sold off on the cheap and they're now in the hands of foriegn companies, not a good situation. I believe all the utilities should be used for the national good providing them at a cost that allows for investment in plant/equipment etc without having to make excess profits to pay shareholders.

They should be a service.

I've nothing against private enterprise, but certain things should be provided in the national interest. I'd sooner the utilities be government funded out of my tax pound than be in the pockets of foriegn powers.

exactly frank. everyone needs these services. i dont see how you can choose not to spend your money on them. They need to be controlled and well planned for with the future in mind. dont we pay more for our water services from the french than they pay themselves.

Dgh

Frank the tank wrote:

The utilities were sold off on the cheap and they're now in the hands of foriegn companies, not a good situation. I believe all the utilities should be used for the national good providing them at a cost that allows for investment in plant/equipment etc without having to make excess profits to pay shareholders.

They should be a service.

I've nothing against private enterprise, but certain things should be provided in the national interest. I'd sooner the utilities be government funded out of my tax pound than be in the pockets of foriegn powers.

I personally don't have a problem with utility companies being foreign-owned, if I get a good service (different question I know).

I agree that certain things should be provided for all. That means that the government will have to pay for them for some or all of us. But that doesn't mean the government has to supply them, and employ the people who work in supplying them.

Simple question. Everyone agrees that education is essential, right? So is food. Which is easier to find, a decent chippy or a place in a good state school? The chippy, right? We don;t have a ministry of chippies. We don't have catchment areas for chippies. People don;t pay inflated house prices to entitle themselves to go to a particular chippy. If you don;t like your local chippy, you go elsewhere. Good chippies survive, bad ones don't.

Wouldn't it be nice if public srvices were like that?

OK, impossible with the army or the courts, but could work in a lot of things.

Or does anyone think we should nationalise chippies?

verylonglegs

Slightly odd analogy imo, if chip shops were all to shut down nobody would starve..there are alternatives. If all schools were shut however...

Dgh

OK, change chippies for all grocers. The point is, we wouldn't choose state monopolies on most things, so why the fuck do we think they are good in others?

Buckled_Rims

Just to point out that the coal pits Thatcher destroyed, will one day come back to haunt your children. Today we are still dithering about Nuclear power, our main energy resource is foreign owned coal, gas and oil. Wind and wave power is just a fraction of our needs.

We as a nation can not make war with any neighbour in Europe and that includes Russia. Russia has the been a main supplier to your cups of tea and warm electric blankets for some time.

So Ironically, Comrade Scargill has won the battle over Thatcher as the Ruskies are now in charge!

finchy

Dgh wrote:

OK, change chippies for all grocers. The point is, we wouldn't choose state monopolies on most things, so why the fark do we think they are good in others?

The state collects our money for health, education, etc. therefore they should be accountable for the results. That means that the government should be ensuring quality, rather than just delegating responsibility to the companies who charge gigantic sums for their services.

finchy

Buckled_Rims wrote:

Today we are still dithering about Nuclear power, our main energy resource is foreign owned coal, gas and oil.

And nuclear power will depend on nuclear fuel from abroad!

Frank the tank

Buckled rims also makes the good point, which had also occured to me and others too I dare say.

No need for Russia to point any nuclear weapons in our direction should we fall out big time, just turn the big red valve clockwise. "Freeze you capitalist dogs".

Oh please Mr commie b@st@rd can we have some gas please, our favourite private chippy cant opperate any more.

No. Freeze and starve capitalist pig.

Bar Shaker

Mrs Thatcher was one of the first European leaders to recognise that politicians make very poor business leaders.

You can talk abot BT, British Gas, etc but two points are poignant - first they were sold for top money and the country benefited by being able to pay off its debts. Second, these companies have been able to raise investment from the public and have grown into companies they never would have grown to in public ownership.

Our railways, although still somewhat publicly subsidised, are amongst the most busy, safest and most reliable in Europe.

Mrs Thatcher was a visionary and we live our lifestyle, rather than a Greek lifestyle because of her. Just a shame Brown mortgaged us up to the hilt again.

Jez mon

C'mon the railways are a terrible example of privatisation.

Busy? More like horrendously overcrowded (at peak times)

Reliable and safe? Well I would definitely question their reliability...

Competition can work in the marketplace as a force for improvement. But when it comes to the train companies, they each have their own monopoly...the end user sees none of the benefits, but still has to pay for the desired shareholder profits...

rake

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7817706.stm
if the chip shop gets unhinged and starts wanting £40 for fish and chips because they can, its rather easier and quicker to open a competing chip shop. Not so with energy supplies

finchy

Bar Shaker wrote:

Mrs Thatcher was a visionary and we live our lifestyle, rather than a Greek lifestyle because of her. Just a shame Brown mortgaged us up to the hilt again.

Again, this is a false choice - Thatcher or Greece. What about Germany, Netherlands, Austria, Scandinavia and a load of other countries which never opted for neo-liberalism and are in a far better position than us?

Why aren't we living a lifestyle like those countries?

verylonglegs

Bar Shaker wrote:

Our railways, although still somewhat publicly subsidised, are amongst the most busy, safest and most reliable in Europe.

I've been to Denmark, Germany, France, Sweden etc and they all have railway networks that make ours look very poor indeed. Both in terms of efficiency and cost.

Buckled_Rims

rake wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7817706.stm
if the chip shop gets unhinged and starts wanting £40 for fish and chips because they can, its rather easier and quicker to open a competing chip shop. Not so with energy supplies

Just thought, Thatcher got defeated in the Cod wars as well, actually, she lay on her back and obediently surrendered our fishing territorial waters to the EU. She won the Falklands but couldn't batter the Haddock.

Bar Shaker

verylonglegs wrote:

Bar Shaker wrote:

Our railways, although still somewhat publicly subsidised, are amongst the most busy, safest and most reliable in Europe.

I've been to Denmark, Germany, France, Sweden etc and they all have railway networks that make ours look very poor indeed. Both in terms of efficiency and cost.

I agree that their high speed lines are better but their rural lines are simply awful. I took one in France a few years ago and a 50 miles journey took over 3 hours. The reliability of arrival times was ensured by sitting at every stop (every station) for at least 5 minutes, so the leaving time would always ensure the next station (5-10 minutes away) would be reached on time.

The NIMBYs would never allow us to build modern high speed networks like the Europeans have. High speed networks aside, our train service is far better than you find in France Italy or Spain. The price for a long journey is similar.

Rural prices are cheaper than ours but you would be better off cycling.

It is easy to look at almost any European country and see similar living standards to what we have in the UK. 15 years ago, this was most certainly not the case and John Major's work as chancellor made us the envy of Europe. Europe needed the ERM (and then the Euro) to stabilise its economies. We did not. It is likely Greece will leave the Euro. It simply cannot comply with the Euro membership rules, whilst so indebted. If Greece does leave, Portugal and Ireland will not be far behind.

Had Thatcher and Major been able to continue, I am certain that the success with Honda, Toyota et al would have continued and the UK would have had a large, well funded, well equipped manufacturing sector. Foreign companies wanted to come here, once the union stranglehold on the country had been broken.

Instead, that investment (or borrowed money, as it became) in our country's future prosperity was put into public service jobs.

rick_chasey

Jez mon wrote:

C'mon the railways are a terrible example of privatisation.

Busy? More like horrendously overcrowded (at peak times)

Reliable and safe? Well I would definitely question their reliability...

Quite.

UK trains are the worst in western Europe.

Natural monopolies are not good candidates for privitisation.

redrobbo

Thatcher's history. We should worry about Cameron.

Drysuitdiver

its great how the tories managed to sell to the British things we already owned .

woodnut

redrobbo wrote:

Thatcher's history. We should worry about Cameron.

Yes, and no, much as I detest them both, Thatcher was an old school conviction politician, who governed with a (imo completely negative) passion. Cameron is just another managerialist bastard like Blair, et al.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGnB9h12Nl4

woodnut

Oh, and by the way I'm convinced that Thatcher absolutely detests cyclists!

SmellTheGlove

And Brown accorded her a State funeral. Well that should be the 'kin bank holiday.

I'm disgusted and ashamed that our entire nation will no doubt be proclaimed to be in mourning for the passing of this most spiteful, petty and plain destructive person. She embodied nothing that I would be proud of and taught nothing that I would pass on to my daughter. There are no words that genuinely convey my contempt for that person.

Initialised

First thing I ever saw on colour TV, I for one will not mourn her passing.

Bar Shaker

I am guessing you would encourage your daughter to max her credit cards and spend at least 110% of what she earned.

I am sure she will thank you for it.

finchy

Bar Shaker wrote:

I am guessing you would encourage your daughter to max her credit cards and spend at least 110% of what she earned.

I am sure she will thank you for it.

:? :? :?

Weejie54

No need for Russia to point any nuclear weapons in our direction should we fall out big time, just turn the big red valve clockwise. "Freeze you capitalist dogs".

Oh please Mr commie b@st@rd can we have some gas please, our favourite private chippy cant opperate any more.

No. Freeze and starve capitalist pig.

Jeez, you are a bit behind the times, aren't you?

The Communist party in Russia comes distant second to the conservative United Russia and the country is noted for its oligarchs.

Frank the tank

Weejie54 wrote:

No need for Russia to point any nuclear weapons in our direction should we fall out big time, just turn the big red valve clockwise. "Freeze you capitalist dogs".

Oh please Mr commie b@st@rd can we have some gas please, our favourite private chippy cant opperate any more.

No. Freeze and starve capitalist pig.

Jeez, you are a bit behind the times, aren't you?

The Communist party in Russia comes distant second to the conservative United Russia and the country is noted for its oligarchs.

The point I was making was, being dependent upon foreign nations for basic utilities such as gas/electricity is not a good position to be in. Because you never know what may happen in the future.