When Margaret Thatcher Dies....

Cleat Eastwood

A great song by pete wylie

Buckled_Rims

She brought more death and destruction to the North-East of England then Osama Bin-Laden ever did. Before Thatcher we had steel works, shipyards, coal pits etc...after Thatcher we had empty spaces and call centres.

She was so intent on killing the unions, that she prevented future generations acquiring skills that the UK now needs and cannot fill. Don't give me any economic bulls* that the UK had to change. Strange how many other countries didn't follow Thatcherism and have succeeded in their manufacturing and heavy industries.

I suppose many find her a heroine, but I link her in the same mould as other ruthless dictators like Tony Blair, Mugabe and Saddam.

nikle

Well said B.R

Other nations had labour trouble at the time & still do for that matter , but as you said they have managed the problem, and you can't say that there is no class system or elites in France or Germany, Japan ect..

Nissan in Gateshead do ok, don't they. Good management systems I suppose.

Lady Thatcher! was a truly horrible person - let alone as P.M. petty & vindictive, I grew up during her reign and remember all the bad blood well. worse than than Blair & New Labour;as bad as they where.

rajMAN

Well said B R

bianchimoon

there's always 2 sides to any argument so here's mine. Take the unions, to have a job at the time even with all my qualifications i HAD to be a member of the NGA, I HAD to pay monthly subs and HAD to put a union number on the back of all my work submitted or i was as good as unemployable. I remember well we had a union officer come to our premises once a month to collect in cash the money of the 30 people who worked there. Then one day we got a visit from the area union rep saying our work would be rejected by all newspapers in the country until we paid our overdue subs. The local union rep for the Northern Echo had been taking all of the cash subs for the last year and pocketing it. The Union hushed it up the guy was 'moved' on no more was said. Whether your a politician or a union representative all are capable of screwing the people they are supposed to represent. At least Thatcher's policy on unions gave ME the opportunity to stand on my own two feet. I for one don't miss the dark days of power crazed union men building their own empires, striking at the drop of a hat.

ddraver

Yeah, WOOP! Go bianchimoon! Fight one of the powers!

nikle

All Right, then you may well stand on your own 2 feet, I am self employed too, don't manufacturer anything though, we lost the balance during the 1980's far too much hollowing out, nobody thinks that the unions are not self serving, but ......bianchmoon meet, politicians.

nikle

All Right, then you may well stand on your own 2 feet, I am self employed too, don't manufacturer anything though, we lost the balance during the 1980's far too much hollowing out, nobody thinks that the unions are not self serving, but ......bianchmoon meet, politicians.

bianchimoon

nikle wrote:

All Right, then you may well stand on your own 2 feet, I am self employed too, don't manufacturer anything though, we lost the balance during the 1980's far too much hollowing out, nobody thinks that the unions are not self serving, but ......bianchmoon meet, politicians.

if you read my quote it does say "Whether your a politician or a union representative all are capable of screwing the people they are supposed to represent."

geordieindevon

I dislike Thatcher as much as the next guy but the failure of our primary industries goes back before her time.

My dad worked down the shipyards in the 60s and 70s. He has told me many a tale of how the unions crippled industry. Take for example piece work. He was on piece work (ie you get paid for the amount of work you produce) and being a good hardworking chap and a time served apprentice made a very good wage. The unions objected to this and so it was abandoned and my dad got paid the same as the next guy, who could produce less, therefore no incentive to work harder.

He also told me that during the late 60s we let the Koreans come to the shipyard to look at our working practices. They observed the place for 3 months and then went back to Korea, operated three 8 hour shifts, no holidays (the shipyards in Newcastle shut for the whole of august) and produced ships in a third of the time we could and therefore at a third of the price.

We lost many of our good primary industries because of weak management and strong unions who called workers out on strike at the drop of a hat...my dad would be out for a fortnight, week, whatever and for what for? Nothing - he lost pay while the union leaders spoke a good tale but were still being paid.

Thatcher did do for the Miners no doubt, but Scargill was an eager opponent ready to walk the miners down path that led to their demise.

Thatcher did however create the mess we are in now of creating a "underclass" who have no buy in into society....in fact she stated there was no such thing as society.

Have a read of Tim Lott's book "Rumours of a Hurricane" - a superb book about the Thatcher era and "clever" ideas such as selling of council houses.

Thatcher also split the traditional working class vote and the idea of parties by class was finally disposed of when Labour became "New Labour" and got rid of clause 4.

What is no doubt is that Thatcher changed the UK forever, far more than any other post war PM....and some traditional working class thought it was for the better!

bianchimoon

A very good and objective post by geordieindevon personally I hate blame culture, any politician in power at any given time was elected democratically and the consequences of their policies are what we have to put up with whether we like it a lot. Posting about celebrating the death of someone does no one any credit.

nikle

I thought the thread was off topi after the first post? Know one after was crowing over anyone's death real or imagined.
To say that Mrs T had a majority mandate is streching it a bit, given our voting setup-have you not been following recent events.

Anyhow I guess your older than me,all I remember is long dole queues and having to fight the system to get on. Didn't get to buy a council house, so no leg up there.

I think geordietowns post is damming if one reads it through.

cornerblock

I am sure we can find one or two miners willing to dig the grave. Or if she wants cremation...mmmm let me think....how can we get the fire started.......?

bianchimoon

nikle wrote:

I thought the thread was off topi after the first post? Know one after was crowing over anyone's death real or imagined.
To say that Mrs T had a majority mandate is streching it a bit, given our voting setup-have you not been following recent events.

Anyhow I guess your older than me,all I remember is long dole queues and having to fight the system to get on. Didn't get to buy a council house, so no leg up there.

I think geordietowns post is damming if one reads it through.

I have read it through and how i read it was reflected in how i commented
Couple of things, you misread my original post where you said "bianchimoon meet politicians"
The original post was saying what a "great song about the death of MT" therefore i was on topic.
I never said MT had a "majority mandate" i said democraticall elected (big difference)
Not sure what the comment re buying a council house refers to? (would Thatcher have been OK if you had have been in a position to get one?

verylonglegs

geordiedevon provides a bit of balance, our car industry for example was long in decline before Thatchers policies had any bearing, it was p1ss-poor management and union power that done for those. You can't stand around striking whilst your competitors are busting a gut to produce cheaper and much better products as happened in the 70's, the American car firms discovered that in the last few years 35yrs after ours did.

nikle

What's the definition of democratically elected then?


Council house sell off reference was rhetorical, was it mentioned a post or two back, was this a good idea? or any of the public utility sell offs, I see most of the big power providers are owned by foreign company's or even governments now. It wasn't just the miners who got shafted (as crazy as Scargilll was) it was every industry that employed more than 20 heads.

I just wonder how things may have turned out had we been able to sort out the labour problems of the 1970's without the confrontational bloody minded ways of the insitu Government of the 80's - Were not really in a such a place as I think France or Germany are. As a comparison.

As stated previously most responses where to the second post about how much loathing some have for the iron lady & the damage done to the UK.

Frank the tank

When Maggie Thatcher dies!

I think anyone who's been a regular on here for a while will probably have an incling as to how I will mark the occasion.

cornerblock

Frank the tank wrote:

When Maggie Thatcher dies!

I think anyone who's been a regular on here for a while will probably have an incling as to how I will mark the occasion.

Come on Frank, don't cry, keep it together, she hasn't gone yet.

Frank the tank

Cornerblock wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

When Maggie Thatcher dies!

I think anyone who's been a regular on here for a while will probably have an incling as to how I will mark the occasion.

Come on Frank, don't cry, keep it together, she hasn't gone yet.

Crapaud

Cleat Eastwood wrote:

A great song by pete wylie

I enjoyed the text at 3.47. It made me smile.

mattshrops

quite a while back i worked at rover in longbridge (brum). one of the old boys was telling me the one day about the old days when red robbo was there. he said word would come down the track(production line) of a "downer"(dispute where the workforce downs tools) everyone would walk out and go over the park. red robbo was at the front with a magaphone- and bearing in mind there were up to 15-20 thousand people working there in those days- you couldnt hear what was being said. anyway he gets to the vote- "blahblahblahblahblahblahblah all those in favour?" you raise your hand shout raaay and go home. :shock: :shock:
i saw the writing on the wall and luckily took VR before the place shut down.

brin

Nissan in Gateshead do ok, don't they. Good management systems I suppose.

??????? i didn't know Nissan had opened a new factory in the N.E.
......bit like that advert on t.v.for buying gold who allege they have premises in Newcastle, whilst they are standing under the Angel of the North (which is in Gateshead) :roll:

nikle

Well I know the unions where out of control in the 70's but they where bad in France Italy everywhere really, some how they worked it out better than the U.K, we must be held up as an example of how not to deal with ageing infrastructure and industry the world over.

I think the US. is not a good example to hold up mattshrops arn't a lot run by teamsters,mafia types, bit like our media post Thatcher.

brin-Sorry to all folks in the N.e for my geography errors, I am from Lincolnshire see,home county of mrs T!!

nikle

Well I know the unions where out of control in the 70's but they where bad in France Italy everywhere really, some how they worked it out better than the U.K, we must be held up as an example of how not to deal with ageing infrastructure and industry the world over.

I think the US. is not a good example to hold up mattshrops arn't a lot run by teamsters,mafia types, bit like our media post Thatcher.

brin-Sorry to all folks in the N.e for my geography errors, I am from Lincolnshire see,home county of mrs T!!

shouldbeinbed

Social housing is in a mess with huge shortages and many people on waiting lists for years on end and sitting incumbents in houses unsuitable to their needs afraid to vacate or unable to move for lack of points/suitable accommodation in the same area as they've established their life and family.

Thatcherism planted the seeds of New Labour: Blairite (wth relish) and Brownite (less so) philosophy which has helped lead us to where we are now.

demolishing heavy and manufacturing industry to kill the worst union excess rather than reforming it to fit modern technology and meet overseas competition, handing us over to private energy and transport providers who's imperitive is profit over service, deskilling the workforce and selling us into overreliance or banks and mobile 'wealth creators' who can hold a gun to the politicos heads to ensure they get the sort of (de)regulation they want - whether they actually would go or not is irrelevant as long as the government is prepared to believe they will.

I've not got a bottle of champagne in the fridge and have taken Hefner et al off my playlist but I really do not believe she merits the hero status that befits a state funeral, she did as much harm as anything and a lot of that damage is only really showing through now - Shes lucky that this part of her legacy is being transplanted fully onto the shoulders of New Labour.

brin

No bother Nikle, i assumed you lived south of the wear

DIESELDOG

Ever feel like saying something sensible then just really cba?

Mrs T did a lot of crap, (So called Poll Tax for one), my over riding memory, just one word.

Falklands.

Love n hugs

DD

eh

What is so great about France? Place has a far lower standard of living than over here.

While obviously Mrs T was far from perfect the perpetual Labour MPs that typically stand in the poor regions have hardly dragged the areas into some kind of utopia. Its too simple to blame one person, even if she was PM.

Buckled_Rims

brin wrote:

Nissan in Gateshead do ok, don't they. Good management systems I suppose.

??????? i didn't know Nissan had opened a new factory in the N.E.

Look at the present and future cars being manufactured at Nissan, not a lot to look forward to. They started from packaged crated cars (Bluebird) to producing their own (Micra, primara) to cars like Juke and in the future electric. The trend is going from mass produced to small niche marketed cars.

Remember that France (to all intents and purposes) own Nissan as Renault is the largest shareholder. And, guess where all the mass produced cars are being made in the future?

StillGoing

I was soldier during the Thatcher years and have to say she was very good for me. I can understand the north/south divide over her but experiences for both will be different. I can remember the coal strikes in the north of the midlands and the breakaway unions who realised too late the damage Scargill etc had done. Although they could have kept the mines running, the output costs didn't compete with outside sources.

No doubt the Conservatives stand for privatisation in every form and a lot of the cabinet decisions were made with profit in mind, but Labour at the time were doing their usual trick of running the country into the ground. I see the strikes in France and with the police being affiliated to the union unable to cross the lines and actually preventing anyone else from crossing them. Hardly progress.

rick_chasey

philthy3 wrote:

I was soldier during the Thatcher years and have to say she was very good for me. .

In what way?

I thought sending soldiers into battle for what appear to be at best marginal and party gains was not a good way to treat soldiers?