Bin Laden..

rick_chasey

Cornerblock wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

What real significance, beyond being fixated in US collective memory, did Bin Laden have for terrorism in the last 8 years?

I get the impression it wasn't very much at all, given he had to be on the run all day.

Now that he's dead he'll be a matyr for those who support his cause.

Surely it'd have been better for him to drift into total insignificance?

He was still someone who had conspired to kill thousands of people. I'm sure we should have let him off the hook just because he hasn't been on TV for a while.

Prison can be drifting into insignificance?

I'm thinking of the bigger picture.

Bigger picture? Do you think if he had been put in prison as opposed to being killed that the lunatics, who would like to take us all back to the dark ages, would stop blowing us up? And of course they would never have kidnapped and killed innocent people to try and get Bin Laden released would they? Think you need to make your picture a bit bigger.

That's not really what I meant, nor what I said. Getting a lil' worked up over stuff you've made up there...

What I meant was, if he's kept under lock and key, wherever, a prison or a house or anywhere, where he can't do anything, then you'd solve the "he's organising everyone" problem (though, as I said before, I doubt that's been an issue for many years), and he won't become a martyr. It'd be even better if they never mentioned it in that respect.

I'd imagine the political capital the incumbent parties gain from presiding over the death made that too tough to do.

I never said locking him up would stop terrorism, nor do I think killing him will. I doubt it makes any differences whatever, beyond making him a martyr.

I've always been of the opinion that for people who command respect and leadership over organisations that cause harm, it's best for them to be forgotten as quickly as possible, and even for them to be shown as decidedly human > rather than some insipring man/woman who dies for their cause.

None of us were thinking about him, and now suddenly he's everywhere. He's probably made more impact being killed than he ever made in the past 5 years, or even since '01.

cornerblock

Rick Chasey wrote:

Cornerblock wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

What real significance, beyond being fixated in US collective memory, did Bin Laden have for terrorism in the last 8 years?

I get the impression it wasn't very much at all, given he had to be on the run all day.

Now that he's dead he'll be a matyr for those who support his cause.

Surely it'd have been better for him to drift into total insignificance?

He was still someone who had conspired to kill thousands of people. I'm sure we should have let him off the hook just because he hasn't been on TV for a while.

Prison can be drifting into insignificance?

I'm thinking of the bigger picture.

Bigger picture? Do you think if he had been put in prison as opposed to being killed that the lunatics, who would like to take us all back to the dark ages, would stop blowing us up? And of course they would never have kidnapped and killed innocent people to try and get Bin Laden released would they? Think you need to make your picture a bit bigger.

That's not really what I meant, nor what I said. Getting a lil' worked up over stuff you've made up there...

What I meant was, if he's kept under lock and key, wherever, a prison or a house or anywhere, where he can't do anything, then you'd solve the "he's organising everyone" problem (though, as I said before, I doubt that's been an issue for many years), and he won't become a martyr. It'd be even better if they never mentioned it in that respect.

I'd imagine the political capital the incumbent parties gain from presiding over the death made that too tough to do.

I never said locking him up would stop terrorism, nor do I think killing him will. I doubt it makes any differences whatever, beyond making him a martyr.

I've always been of the opinion that for people who command respect and leadership over organisations that cause harm, it's best for them to be forgotten as quickly as possible, and even for them to be shown as decidedly human > rather than some insipring man/woman who dies for their cause.

None of us were thinking about him, and now suddenly he's everywhere. He's probably made more impact being killed than he ever made in the past 5 years, or even since '01.

Not sure if you mean that you are getting worked up or you think I am. If it's you, please don't, it's only a little debate! I am still of the opinion that if he had been captured and imprisoned then it would have been a life mission for some to get him released, killing many innocents in their futile attempts to do so. In this case I honestly think it is better for all that he is no longer around. Dead or alive though he will always be a hero to those who follow his ideology.

RichN95.

Rick Chasey wrote:

What I meant was, if he's kept under lock and key, wherever, a prison or a house or anywhere, where he can't do anything, then you'd solve the "he's organising everyone" problem (though, as I said before, I doubt that's been an issue for many years), and he won't become a martyr. It'd be even better if they never mentioned it in that respect.

He could still be a martyr of sorts in prison - just look at Nelson Mandela. He didn't fade into obscurity while locked up.

rick_chasey

RichN95 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

What I meant was, if he's kept under lock and key, wherever, a prison or a house or anywhere, where he can't do anything, then you'd solve the "he's organising everyone" problem (though, as I said before, I doubt that's been an issue for many years), and he won't become a martyr. It'd be even better if they never mentioned it in that respect.

He could still be a martyr of sorts in prison - just look at Nelson Mandela. He didn't fade into obscurity while locked up.

You wouldn't be mentioning him if he never left prison...

tx14

Aggieboy wrote:

amaferanga wrote:

Body buried at sea. No evidence that he's dead - only the word of the yanks. Hmmmmm......

Do you really think they would have briefed Barack Obama without proof? I'm sure there will be film, photos, fingerprints etc. The quick burial is no doubt to appease Muslims throughout the World so as not to offend them.

is this a serious comment?
so we just shot up this muslim terrorist figure head, but we don't want to make other muslims mad so we better bury him quickly, at sea.
it just sound very odd to me.

Aggieboy

tx14 wrote:

Aggieboy wrote:

amaferanga wrote:

Body buried at sea. No evidence that he's dead - only the word of the yanks. Hmmmmm......

Do you really think they would have briefed Barack Obama without proof? I'm sure there will be film, photos, fingerprints etc. The quick burial is no doubt to appease Muslims throughout the World so as not to offend them.

is this a serious comment?
so we just shot up this muslim terrorist figure head, but we don't want to make other muslims mad so we better bury him quickly, at sea.
it just sound very odd to me.

Yes, it is a serious comment. Muslims prefer to bury their deceased as soon as possible and without disturbing the body if possible. Killing OBL may be one thing, burying him in a way that doesn't offend other Muslims, and therefore their religious practices, makes sense to me under the circumstances.

RichN95.

Rick Chasey wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

He could still be a martyr of sorts in prison - just look at Nelson Mandela. He didn't fade into obscurity while locked up.

You wouldn't be mentioning him if he never left prison...

People talking about him plenty when they had the Mandela Concerts* at Wembley in 1988 . Back in the 80s every University had something named after him (a bar at mine). Even the tower block in Only Fools and Horses is named after him.

He was very much the embodiment of the anti-apartheid movement.


* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Man ... ay_Tribute (600million TV viewers)

CyclingBantam

tx14 wrote:

Aggieboy wrote:

amaferanga wrote:

Body buried at sea. No evidence that he's dead - only the word of the yanks. Hmmmmm......

Do you really think they would have briefed Barack Obama without proof? I'm sure there will be film, photos, fingerprints etc. The quick burial is no doubt to appease Muslims throughout the World so as not to offend them.

is this a serious comment?
so we just shot up this muslim terrorist figure head, but we don't want to make other muslims mad so we better bury him quickly, at sea.
it just sound very odd to me.

It seems odd to you? Do you think he possibly hasn't been killed then?

Osama, the Americans are telling everyone you are dead.

Pass me that video camera...

I think we can assume pretending he has been killed isn't something the Americans would think is worthwhile.

tri-sexual

it goes back to my post earlier, he is not dead!
think back to when bin laden's right hand men were captured, each and everyone is paraded on tv,
when sadam and his sons were killed, they were shown on tv, all of a sudden the main man is supposed to be killed, they instantly get rid of the body in the sea.
talk about fishy.
there is no islamic rule to say that a burial has to be immediate, or in fact burial at sea, for muslims to have a sea burial is very unusal

Anonymous

I don't think that even the Americans would announce this if they were not 100% positive that OBL had been killed by their special forces, the embarrasment and loss of credibility on this issue would be immense.

I think he had to be killed and not jailed, lots of legal and political ramifications there, especially when Barack Obama is struggling to close Guantanamo. Seems a second term winning move to me.

Saying that, finding him and dishing out some swift justice to him was right. Nice to know (if the reports are true) he was cowering behind his wife at the end. Shows him for the gutless, sneaky murdering b'stard he was.

Impressed by The Times and his obituary this morning, brave and just move.

MarcBC

I think he is dead all right, but that he died some time ago. This "announcement" is just to boost an ailing popularity of a US president and to give cause for an excuse to start withdrawing the US troops from Afghanistan.

term1te

There hasn't been much mention of the killing of his latest young wife and their (I guess young) child. "Collateral damage" no doubt. I'm glad he won't be able to plan any more terror attacks, but not really something to celebrate about. Not that impressed with LAs tweets on the subject either, may stop following him.

Cleat Eastwood

at least one americans on the ball

Drysuitdiver

Cornerblock wrote:

tri-sexual wrote:

bin ladens not dead
captured but not dead
fast burial at sea is too convenient and ties up alot of loose ends, bypassing alot of awkward questions
US special forces would have placed bin laden under surveylance for at least a month before this operation, they would study his communications, movements, contacts and before the attack they will disable the guards before an extraction team will enter at night using night vision and guided by the surveliance intel which using heat seeking allows the team to know exactly where all the occupants are.
bin laden will be hooded, handcuffed and noosed before being dragged out. bin laden would have no time to react.
the whole operation would have taken probably well under 60 secs.
bin laden will be shipped off to some secret prison and tortured for information where human rights do not exist and no one will ever know what really goes on

Thank you Andy McNab. He is dead, he was buried at sea, he was killed by a seal.

having dived at St Abbs and the Farne islands , I ncan confirm the seals can get a bit "nippy" although why Bin Laden was diving off the northumberland coast beats me.

SimonAH

I strongly suspect that the reason film hasn't been released is that this was an execution, quite possibly of a surrendering man.

It needed to be TBH as a trial and imprisonment would have provided a focus for further violence - but it probably wasn't a pretty sight. I imagine film will be released shortly once it's been sanitised as much as possible.

Ben6899

SimonAH wrote:

I strongly suspect that the reason film hasn't been released is that this was an execution, quite possibly of a surrendering man.

Or because there is no film? Well there might be film, but nothing on it. Well there might be something on it, but nothing pertaining to The Leader of Al-Qaeda being killed.

bompington

Ben6899 wrote:

Well there might be film, but nothing on it. Well there might be something on it, but nothing pertaining to The Leader of Al-Qaeda being killed.

That's it! I'll bet The Silence are hiding in the background! And possibly Lord Lucan too, having a chat with Elvis about how they assassinated Kennedy :roll:

Weejie54

although why Bin Laden was diving off the northumberland coast beats me.

Perhaps a bit of diving and an ice cream at Cullercoats was a bit of a break while he was over for the B. Laden races. Mind you, it was a bit risky as there were explosive devices planted all over the area. Even the fog on the Tyne is all mined.

Aggieboy

tri-sexual wrote:

it goes back to my post earlier, he is not dead!
think back to when bin laden's right hand men were captured, each and everyone is paraded on tv,
when sadam and his sons were killed, they were shown on tv, all of a sudden the main man is supposed to be killed, they instantly get rid of the body in the sea.
talk about fishy.
there is no islamic rule to say that a burial has to be immediate, or in fact burial at sea, for muslims to have a sea burial is very unusal

I didn't say 'law' merely preferable. As for burial at sea, probably so that his grave didn't become some sort of shrine.

Aggieboy

Whilst celebrating Arsenal's victory over Man Utd, it was perhaps unwise of OBL to run out of his compound shouting "Come on you Gunners!"

tx14

CyclingBantam wrote:

tx14 wrote:

Aggieboy wrote:

amaferanga wrote:

Body buried at sea. No evidence that he's dead - only the word of the yanks. Hmmmmm......

Do you really think they would have briefed Barack Obama without proof? I'm sure there will be film, photos, fingerprints etc. The quick burial is no doubt to appease Muslims throughout the World so as not to offend them.

is this a serious comment?
so we just shot up this muslim terrorist figure head, but we don't want to make other muslims mad so we better bury him quickly, at sea.
it just sound very odd to me.

It seems odd to you? Do you think he possibly hasn't been killed then?

Osama, the Americans are telling everyone you are dead.
Pass me that video camera...

I think we can assume pretending he has been killed isn't something the Americans would think is worthwhile.

I don't think he's not dead.
just that the decision to immediately bury him at sea is odd.
how does giving someone a nice burial help ease relations if you just KILLED the guy.

Aggieboy

tx14 wrote:

CyclingBantam wrote:

tx14 wrote:

Aggieboy wrote:

amaferanga wrote:

Body buried at sea. No evidence that he's dead - only the word of the yanks. Hmmmmm......

Do you really think they would have briefed Barack Obama without proof? I'm sure there will be film, photos, fingerprints etc. The quick burial is no doubt to appease Muslims throughout the World so as not to offend them.

is this a serious comment?
so we just shot up this muslim terrorist figure head, but we don't want to make other muslims mad so we better bury him quickly, at sea.
it just sound very odd to me.

It seems odd to you? Do you think he possibly hasn't been killed then?

Osama, the Americans are telling everyone you are dead.
Pass me that video camera...

I think we can assume pretending he has been killed isn't something the Americans would think is worthwhile.

I don't think he's not dead.
just that the decision to immediately bury him at sea is odd.
how does giving someone a nice burial help ease relations if you just KILLED the guy.[/quote]


Because the majority of Muslims are probably just as pleased as most people that he's dead as well, but would still like their religious practices upheld.

SimonAH

Also of course the faster he's out of the way the better 'cos it's a bit pointless bombing or picketing an area of sea - whearas any storage (or suspected storage) location would attract that attention in about five minutes........

It's all about not giving them targets.

CyclingBantam

Imagine the uproar if they kept his body hanging around whilst the world decided what to do with it.

Get rid of it as quick as possible then people may be able to complain a bit but ultimately, there is nothing they can do. Over. Gone.

To be honest, nobody could ever prove he had been killed. Whatever happened, there would always be a conspiracy.

People will still think Sadam Hussein is allive ffs!

RichN95.

CyclingBantam wrote:

Imagine the uproar if they kept his body hanging around whilst the world decided what to do with it.

Forget the uproar, imagine the smell. He probably ponged quite a bit when he was alive.

rake

i think hes dead. The whole reason for an air raid on the place was to make sure they got him. they could identify the remains, this is why they didnt just bomb the place. They rode into the compound on williers with machine guns mounted on the drops.

Slimbods

tri-sexual wrote:

it goes back to my post earlier, he is not dead!

Of course he's dead. If he wasn't, Al Qaeda would be parading videos of him today with a 'lol' sign around his neck.

Le Commentateur

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYkMnjrA6iQ

Aggieboy

It was his beard that did for him....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAGO_l_YTbk&feature=related

tx14

Aggieboy wrote:

tx14 wrote:

CyclingBantam wrote:

tx14 wrote:

Aggieboy wrote:

amaferanga wrote:

Body buried at sea. No evidence that he's dead - only the word of the yanks. Hmmmmm......

Do you really think they would have briefed Barack Obama without proof? I'm sure there will be film, photos, fingerprints etc. The quick burial is no doubt to appease Muslims throughout the World so as not to offend them.

is this a serious comment?
so we just shot up this muslim terrorist figure head, but we don't want to make other muslims mad so we better bury him quickly, at sea.
it just sound very odd to me.

It seems odd to you? Do you think he possibly hasn't been killed then?

Osama, the Americans are telling everyone you are dead.
Pass me that video camera...

I think we can assume pretending he has been killed isn't something the Americans would think is worthwhile.

I don't think he's not dead.
just that the decision to immediately bury him at sea is odd.
how does giving someone a nice burial help ease relations if you just KILLED the guy.[/quote]


Because the majority of Muslims are probably just as pleased as most people that he's dead as well, but would still like their religious practices upheld.

but the people who are pleased, muslim or not, are not the ones who would get riled up by how bin laden was buried.