Who needs a skills course???

cloudynights

natoED wrote
"Why should you have to pay some one to teach you when you can get good advice from other riders out and about for free? Back in the 90's we never had such coaches for the average Joe . But then again we never expected to be MTB gods from day one. Maybe it's a sense of perspective that has been warped my marketing and the pace of modern life "

this is true it takes years and tears to become a good rider people think that going on a course is gonna make you good overnight and somehow eliminate bad habits whatever they are

rudedog

cloudynights wrote:

this is true it takes years and tears to become a good rider people think that going on a course is gonna make you good overnight and somehow eliminate bad habits whatever they are

Do they? It seemed to me from reading peoples responses and using common sense that there are lots of valid reasons for people getting some tuition.

Take the blinkers off - just because you don't think its right for you doesn't mean that the same should apply to everybody.

cloudynights

rudedog wrote:

cloudynights wrote:

this is true it takes years and tears to become a good rider people think that going on a course is gonna make you good overnight and somehow eliminate bad habits whatever they are

Do they? It seemed to me from reading peoples responses and using common sense that there are lots of valid reasons for people getting some tuition.

Take the blinkers off - just because you don't think its right for you doesn't mean that the same should apply to everybody.

who taught the jedi's

rudedog

cloudynights wrote:

rudedog wrote:

cloudynights wrote:

this is true it takes years and tears to become a good rider people think that going on a course is gonna make you good overnight and somehow eliminate bad habits whatever they are

Do they? It seemed to me from reading peoples responses and using common sense that there are lots of valid reasons for people getting some tuition.

Take the blinkers off - just because you don't think its right for you doesn't mean that the same should apply to everybody.

who taught the jedi's

I think you'd really have to ask them.

popstar

Skills course tuition won't make you a better rider overnight. Infact you will get basic core skills knowledge to progress from as well as loosing bad habits which could lead your riding into troubles. In my personal case ... it took me few months to adapt new skills to change my riding style, even then I still learn new tricks every time I ride. So given advice about churning up gazillion of miles in the saddle is one of the truth*.

Now for subject of getting some tips from riders. There are some amazing riders who can ride, but can they teach? In most cases when exp riders start to dish out tips, usually they give advanced* fine tuned clues of how they do it but overlooking basics, and that is a proper fail IMO. Would you build a house on sand foundation? Why would you discuss colour of bricks when foundation is so wrong to build on?

When group riding majority of people just want to ride-socialise-have fun, how do you see someone stopping all that and preaching the truth*? Even then, you need to have specific terrain suitable for skills development available so in-between sections there aren't many miles to ride etc ... to cut the story short:
-Would you like to know exquisite recipe to succes and join Ministry of Radness for a few bob?
or
-Do it the hardway, wondering if you had been on the right path but then if you were, at least few battle scars and years would prove it?

Modern MTB-er is such an animal, you just can't predict what does he want ... but then if there weren't any hippies around, where would we get all those charismatic inspiring stories from?

Rezpekt!
or

Northwind

NatoED wrote:

But surely a rider will progress naturally into a good rider with out coaching .

No, frankly... Plenty of people don't, or they progress to a reasonable level then hit a plateau.

Lots of people saying "Nothing better than just riding"- and I agree but it's hardly mutually exclusive is it? Coaching is just a way of upping the learning curve.

RobJ20

For me its confidence, there was i time when i would hit everything without fear but after having a bad off i have lost the confidence, i will be doing a course later in the year try and get me trying new stuff again. At the minute i wont try most drop offs for fear of what might happen, even though i know i can do it.

andyrm

I've been riding almost 20 years now and something that has been neglected thus far is that riding has got a whole load faster and more technical. Far from making it 'easier', advances in technology have made it possible to tackle increasingly dangerous terrain. But steeper drops, bigger jumps, rockier sections all place more demand on body position etc. That's what you get out of a course.

2 of my mates, both long term riders, recently did the course at Cannock and it's made a huge difference. Partly unlearning bad habits, partly formalising things they do subconsciously and making them think more about what they do.

I'm looking at doing one myself now, I like to improve and increase what I can ride, this seems the perfect way to do it.

sdalby

cloudynights wrote:

a course is only as good as the person teaching it

I'd say wrong again, a course is only as good as the person who wants to learn.

I myself have done a Campbell coaching course and found it massively helpful. I had been riding confidently and fairly in control of the bike for a few years, but still went into the course open-minded, willing to learn whatever I was shown.

Someone like you would probably go into a course thinking you are too good for it, and come out the other end either having not listened to a single thing, or disagreeing to everything that you have been told.

Courses aren't a 'you must do it this way'. Good courses compliment an individuals riding style and anyone who goes on one (who wants to improve) will always improve their riding.

popstar

sdalby wrote:

I'd say wrong again, a course is only as good as the person who wants to learn.

+1

J@mesC

NatoED wrote:

It could be that the new generation of MTBers don't see things in the organic way most riders who started in the early/ mid 90's see their riding .

Why do you assume that everyone who goes on a skills course is having a mid-life crisis, has never been on a bike before and has just dropped £3k on a bike but doesn't know how to use it? I got my first mountain bike in 1989. I still benefited from a skills course. :roll:

NatoED wrote:

Nothing will ever teach you more than just getting miles under your wheels and time spent riding the same area . Save the money spent on a coach and just go ride with a bunch of mates and race each other for fun .

Yeah, you could ride the same old trails and get them wired, but I want to ride any trail well/quickly, not just the ones I know :roll:

Who coaches the coaches? I dunno - who coaches Lance Armstrong's coach, who coaches Tiger Woods coach, who coaches Kelly Slater's coach?? The list goes on... You think these guys get to the top of their game by playing the same golf courses or surfing the same waves or racing their mates around the block???

Seems like it's pretty easy to split people posting in this thread into 2 groups:
1) Those who have had some coaching and recommend it
2) Those who have never had any coaching and think it's a waste of time.

I've yet to come across anyone who fits into a third group:
3) Those who've had coaching and think it's a waste of time


Each to their own, and the world would be a boring place if we were all the same, but if you've ever thought about a skills course (even just for the briefest of moments!!!) then do it!!! Make sure you get the right coach of course, and Jedi comes very highly recommended (from someone who has plenty of riding experience, an open mind and had no idea what to expect from a coaching session!!)

Atz

J@mesC wrote:

Seems like it's pretty easy to split people posting in this thread into 2 groups:
1) Those who have had some coaching and recommend it
2) Those who have never had any coaching and think it's a waste of time.

I've yet to come across anyone who fits into a third group:
3) Those who've had coaching and think it's a waste of time

That's the real point here. By all means knock it if you've tried and found it useless but it's a blinkered view to dismiss it without experience. As James said, I'm faster EVERYWHERE now, not just on my local trails as I learned tools for dealing with trail sections, I didn't learn to ride a specific trail faster. If someone wants to ride around and build their skills alone then fair enough, but I'm glad I spent my money to avoid continuing the slow and sometimes bruising improvement process.

My dad used to say to me that there's a difference between someone with 10 years experience in some field and someone with 1 years experience repeated 10 times, I think my coaching course has helped me get closer to the former than the latter.

NatoED

OK I admit defeat . your right we all need coaching cos we all need to be coached as that's what modern life dictates.

Atz

See, that's the point. You've never tried it, decry anyone who has as try-hard johnny come lately's and then flounce off. All we're saying is that the ONLY route is not the "bounce of rocks and trees to learn your limits" one. I've said all along that it's about choice, you're the one coming from a position of absolutes.

NatoED

This is not a dig at anyone here , please don't take it like that it's more of a general lament

What i can't understand is why pay for it . Surly ridding with a mixed group of riders with a range of skills is going to be as effective and better for your wallet ? Why not ask to join a group of experienced riders who can help you out , plus you get to make more friends out on the trails .

It's the hippy in me but I can't understand the need for instant gratification or instant results that seems to have entered the world of MTBing.

Trail guides I can understand and as I posted earlier to respond to dead kenny that a course on a particular thing may be help full for some .


maybe I'm an embittered 29 year old MTBer that's wishing it was back like the old days when we wore bright clothes , brakes would make you faster downhill and every one seemed to have more fun but also out of breath .
As soon as MTBing became so big it's as if the life blood was sucked out . Biking is now more clinical we can't have fun unless your skills are honed , your bike is the bestest, newest , bounciest , what ever has est on the end of it. your not allowed to reach a a plateau , you have to just push push push .

Yeah Your The Best , Your Worth It . You Deserve The Best . Buy Some Skills And Beat The Rest.

CONTENTMENT NOT ALLOWED.



[/i]

NatoED

maybe I will take up a skills course but lack of money , lack of time and I'm just having fun already when I'm out means there isn't much point for me to take one at the moment.

bartimaeus

Hmmm... maybe it's just me, but where I ride I mostly see riders of all ages just playing in the woods, having fun.

Often a bit of coaching helps you hit something new, or ride something just that bit more smoothly... and for me that makes it even more fun. So far I've just had pointers from other riders, but I'll be looking for a skills course sometime soon as for me new skills open up new possibilities.

J@mesC

NatoED wrote:

What i can't understand is why pay for it . Surly ridding with a mixed group of riders with a range of skills is going to be as effective and better for your wallet ?

I very much doubt it. Just because your mates ride well it doesn't mean a) they can tell you why they ride well or b) tell you technically what you're doing right or wrong.

NatoED wrote:

It's the hippy in me but I can't understand the need for instant gratification or instant results that seems to have entered the world of MTBing.

Who mentioned instant results or instant gratification????

Yes, coaching improved parts of my riding on the day, but the point several people have made is it is far from instant. You're not "buying" a whole new pack of skills off the shelf. It's about understanding how you ride and which bits are good and which bits are bad. There's a whole lot to take away with you and work on.

NatoED wrote:

Yeah Your The Best , Your Worth It . You Deserve The Best . Buy Some Skills And Beat The Rest.

CONTENTMENT NOT ALLOWED.

Maybe if there was some hippy in you then you'd be able to open your mind and realise that for most people coaching isn't a materialistic thing. You keep harping on about the money side of things - it's not all about the money. You're not "buying" skill, it's about taking what you're already got and making it better. And that will give you CONTENTMENT GUARANTEED!!!

Seriously, don't knock it until you've tried it! Just think - you could be having even more fun than you're having now!!

cooldad

Qualifiers: I have had no coaching and I'm not very good, albeit having ridden a bike for well over 40 years.
Some of the guys I ride with (including Atz and popstar) have been for a bit of coaching and have improved significantly. They were faster than me, now much faster and much more confident.
But they haven't been able to make any difference imparting their wisdom to me.
So either it helps to have a decent coach or I am a lost cause.

Atz

Well if you're really keen on that wheels off ground stuff, I can have a proper go at explaining things rather than 5 mins on the side of a hill. That said, you did manage to get the small drop done right after a few tries

cooldad

Not really keen on the wheels off the ground stuff on purpose, but for those times when there's no choice, it's nice to be able to handle it rather than die.
Saying that that was more of a pimple than a drop.

rudedog

NatoED wrote:

This is not a dig at anyone here , please don't take it like that it's more of a general lament

What i can't understand is why pay for it . Surly ridding with a mixed group of riders with a range of skills is going to be as effective and better for your wallet ? Why not ask to join a group of experienced riders who can help you out , plus you get to make more friends out on the trails .

It's the hippy in me but I can't understand the need for instant gratification or instant results that seems to have entered the world of MTBing.

Trail guides I can understand and as I posted earlier to respond to dead kenny that a course on a particular thing may be help full for some .


maybe I'm an embittered 29 year old MTBer that's wishing it was back like the old days when we wore bright clothes , brakes would make you faster downhill and every one seemed to have more fun but also out of breath .
As soon as MTBing became so big it's as if the life blood was sucked out . Biking is now more clinical we can't have fun unless your skills are honed , your bike is the bestest, newest , bounciest , what ever has est on the end of it. your not allowed to reach a a plateau , you have to just push push push .

Yeah Your The Best , Your Worth It . You Deserve The Best . Buy Some Skills And Beat The Rest.

CONTENTMENT NOT ALLOWED.


[/i]

You really seem to struggle with the concept that just because something isn't right for you, it might actually be right for someone else. Not everyone is the same, some people learn at different rates, respond to different learning techniques etc - its all about choice and nobody here is forcing you to go on a skills course.

cloudynights

what would we do without courses? some are worthwhile some not some help us learn some make us lazy to learn, if you need to do one fine go do one some people need to be taught some can work it out for themselves, i been riding a bike since i was 4 im now 42 i still get a buzz from riding still have the scars i got as a kid and no matter what ive rode over the years still felt as one with my bike so for me a course is not the way to go being able or not able to do some jump or some ride at my age is not a big hang up i got bigger worries, it takes years to become good at any sport or for that a trade cant be done in a couple of years, but as it as already been said people want to become great overnight and not put the hard work in of learning a craft, sign of the times i guess, best way to learn is to make mistakes then work out how to correct them yourself then you understand what to do as well as know why your doing it

cloudynights

off to go balance on my bike now still do it still get a buzz

Atz

We get it, you don't like coaching and think it's cheating somehow. I've learned a craft, it's how I make my living and you know what, someone taught me solid foundations to give me the understanding to build my career on rather than just starting work at 16 and hoping for the best. I think that did well for me and I still go to seminars, courses etc to learn more.

For my spare time, I'd rather avoid the "making mistakes" that cracked ribs, tore muscles, concussed one friend and put another friend in hospital if at all possible.

best way to learn is to make mistakes then work out how to correct them yourself then you understand what to do as well as know why your doing it

Shows what you know about coaching. My session with jedi was more about breaking down how I ride, correcting small things and explaining why they'd hurt my riding than it was about me doing exactly what he said because he said so. I've come away with a stronger understanding of what works for me what doesn't based around a skillset and can apply that to my riding. He doesn't teach you how to ride a specific feature (although I can't speak for other coaching around the UK), he explains the parts of the skillset you've learned that you need to apply and then helps you refine what feels good to you (I perform much better on wider lines in flat corners than a friend who prefers a tighter entry for example).

Anyway, it's clear you think it's a waste of time and money. Good for you, that's your choice and you're happy with it. I took my choice, paid my money and am very happy too.

popstar

NatoED maybe offer to slave a bit for few days at trails maintenance with guys who teach? Surely your hardwork will be appreciated and you may avoid paying if that causes some problems.

You seem to be very interesting person to chit-chat to, those skills coaches are as passionate as many others and actually are real people. They do sociable rides too.

cloudynights

Atz wrote:

We get it, you don't like coaching and think it's cheating somehow. I've learned a craft, it's how I make my living and you know what, someone taught me solid foundations to give me the understanding to build my career on rather than just starting work at 16 and hoping for the best. I think that did well for me and I still go to seminars, courses etc to learn more.

For my spare time, I'd rather avoid the "making mistakes" that cracked ribs, tore muscles, concussed one friend and put another friend in hospital if at all possible.

best way to learn is to make mistakes then work out how to correct them yourself then you understand what to do as well as know why your doing it

Shows what you know about coaching. My session with jedi was more about breaking down how I ride, correcting small things and explaining why they'd hurt my riding than it was about me doing exactly what he said because he said so. I've come away with a stronger understanding of what works for me what doesn't based around a skillset and can apply that to my riding. He doesn't teach you how to ride a specific feature (although I can't speak for other coaching around the UK), he explains the parts of the skillset you've learned that you need to apply and then helps you refine what feels good to you (I perform much better on wider lines in flat corners than a friend who prefers a tighter entry for example).

Anyway, it's clear you think it's a waste of time and money. Good for you, that's your choice and you're happy with it. I took my choice, paid my money and am very happy too.

im a timed served city and guilds of london institute of carpentry and joinery, with my own firm so i do know what you have to to to learn a trade, have done many sports along the way, martial arts being one on one instructer training and have taught kids as well, so your wild guess at my abilities are laughable suggest you grow up a little my friend, and i said if people want to go on a course then fine whatever works for them, but its not the route for me at least not for mountain biking.some people can break down how they ride themselves, change where you put your weight, plant your front wheel and have the right mental attitude, its not rocket science

popstar

Cloudynights wrote:

...

Outburst of the day!

cloudynights

also the person you call jedi may not be the best person to teach you because as i recall he was unable to sense that emperor palpatine was a sith lord, i rest my case

NatoED

For my spare time, I'd rather avoid the "making mistakes" that cracked ribs, tore muscles, concussed one friend and put another friend in hospital if at all possible.

In some ways your right but also very wrong. A course tutor can't tell you how it feels to be right on the edge of your tyres grip just before they let go . Is it mistake to get your bike to that point ? is it a situation where you can learn from such mistakes ? Is it something that a course can teach you? That's where riding your bike over a well known trail will really help you to know your bike and from that you can extrapolate how it is reacting under you .

I can see that for some a course is a good option , but for some things there is no substitute for actually having it happen to you .

Think back to my early days of MTBing (16 years ago) I would ask riders that went past me how they carried their speed , or how they could climb so well . Some were very helpful others were like trying to decipher a times crossword . Just following a rider and seeing how they chose lines or take corners and try to assimilate what they did into my riding.