Who needs a skills course???

J@mesC

First a bit of background... I ride quite regularly, either with my girl or with mates. She's the fastest climber amongst us, but I'm usually second to the top. On the descents, I'm generally first down. I'll generally take the black options at trail centres and look for a bit of air time wherever I can. OK, so the standard of the guys I ride with isn't world class, but we're all pretty fit and snowboard, climb etc and can get around on a bike.

So yesterday my girlfriend and I went to see Jedi in Herts... :shock:

I had no idea what to expect and didn't really know what I wanted out of the day, other than I knew there must be ways to improve my riding. I think cycling is about the only sport I've ever done where I've had no coaching whatsoever. I bet most people are the same - old man runs behind you when he takes your stabilisers off for the first time, then you're on your own!

Jedi blew both our minds - simple as!!

His coaching was unreal - he quickly figured out how we both learnt (which was slightly different) and tailored his style accordingly. He broke everything down into such simple parts that it was easy to understand why and how everything worked. It was ground up coaching too - he didn't simply teach you how to ride a particular feature - it was much more fundamental stuff that you can apply to anything. The result is that we've both come away feeling more confident and with a whole bag of tricks to throw at the trails. And the learning didn't end yesterday, I've got so much to work on in future...

We're all happy to chuck money at the bike on new shiny bits, but few people ever think about upgrading themselves - and we're usually the weakest link! Yesterday was the best money I've ever spent on my mountain biking.

Never considered a skills course? Go see Jedi.
Don't think you need a skills course? Go see Jedi.
Too expensive? Put the next bike upgrade on hold for a few months. Go see Jedi.

Miggins

J@mesC wrote:

We're all happy to chuck money at the bike on new shiny bits, but few people ever think about upgrading themselves - and we're usually the weakest link!

Totally agree. Shiny bits and upgrades won't necessarily make you go faster/be a better rider; fitness and skills will. Personally, I'll only upgrade a component once I've reached a level where that component is holding me back.

cloudynights

skills course lol never needed them 30 years ago, ride by feel thats best way to learn

J@mesC

cloudynights wrote:

skills course lol never needed them 30 years ago, ride by feel thats best way to learn

I've also ridden bikes for 30+ years, but thankfully I'm not a miserable, narrow minded old scrote and my riding will improve massively because I was big enough to look at my riding critically and see that I could improve.

Must be a sad place to be when you realise you're happy with where you're at and you won't ever get any better

cloudynights

J@mesC wrote:

cloudynights wrote:

skills course lol never needed them 30 years ago, ride by feel thats best way to learn

I've also ridden bikes for 30+ years, but thankfully I'm not a miserable, narrow minded old scrote and my riding will improve massively because I was big enough to look at my riding critically and see that I could improve.

Must be a sad place to be when you realise you're happy with where you're at and you won't ever get any better

wasnt having a laugh at you, if thats what you want to do then fine yes and maybe your right i may be narrow minded but i aint miserable, have done many sports in my life from running to martial arts and in these yup getting help in them is needed to progress but being honest with you i always found that riding a bike was about feeling, my uncle rode trails bikes and raced and he learnt by trial and error i guess its down to each rider how they improve for me i do it myself.others feel the need for help so i didnt mean to be little- you so im sorry if i did but eh no scathing attacks please

pilsburypie

cloudynights wrote:

skills course lol never needed them 30 years ago, ride by feel thats best way to learn

You say you have done many sports including martial arts.... did you receive any coaching/teaching for this or did you do as Bruce Lee said "don't think, feel....... You concentrate on the finger and miss all of the heavenly glory"?

supersonic

cloudynights wrote:

skills course lol never needed them 30 years ago, ride by feel thats best way to learn

There is a lot of truth in this - there is a lot you can do off your own bat before you splash out on a course.

NatoED

Magazines can give you the basics just as much as a skills course . Starting small and working up is the key . It's a lot cheaper and every one rides different so advice given by some one may not work at all for you .

Anonymous

cloudynights wrote:

skills course lol never needed them 30 years ago, ride by feel thats best way to learn

Whilst true in ways, translating that to my skiing which I've done for decades almost all by my own practice and feel, I've come to a point where I'm stuck and not progressing. I get down everything, even the most seriously dangerously stupid stuff, but I just lack skills that let me have a real play. I'm talking jumps, stunts, and proper deep powder stuff (heli-skiing style) and so on.

I don't know if the same is really the case on bikes as I've only ridden MTB for a few years, but I do have a similar plateau point where I can get around a lot of stuff but I can't properly do the jumps, drops and so on. At least not safely. On the bike, I think I'm also making many mistakes just through normal riding due to my inexperience. Mistakes that may be dangerous.

I didn't learn MTB as a kid or do BMX, or even a skateboard, so I'd like to get some skills, confidence and learn how to do the things I try and fail to do, properly.

I could continue and try to learn over the years. I may get a lot better. I may also end up more seriously injured than I have so far and stop riding altogether.

I think it can be worth it. Maybe not for everyone, but for some. I'd also say that money spend on a good skills course could be far better money spent than an upgrade on the bike.

I've also heard nothing but outstanding results from Jedi, and I'm sure I'll be booking with him at some point once my back is fixed.

Atz

Another vote for jedi from me. My riding is a lot more assured now and I'm carrying a lot more speed than I was before without it feeling dangerous. He also stays in touch after the course to make sure you're still okay and using the lessons so it's not a take the cash and forget about you sort of deal.

Phillw454

Unless I have missed it can someone tell me where this jedi is?

Edit- and his costs and watch he actually teaches you?

Anonymous

http://www.ukbikeskills.co.uk/

Have a read of his blog reports on each session and you can make your own mind up: http://ukbikeskills.blogspot.com/

Northwind

cloudynights wrote:

skills course lol never needed them 30 years ago, ride by feel thats best way to learn

It's a good way to learn some bad practices though. I learned by riding, just recently I've had a bit of coaching not so much to learn new stuff but to unlearn old stuff. Do you seriously think you have nothing left to learn?

supersonic

Who teaches the coaches? ;-)

Iwingstein

So Murray playing tennis badly has nowt to do with the fact he didn't have a coach. Even golf (yawn) pros have instruction.

Reminds me of something I was told many years ago when motorcycle instructing (and improving my own skills by doing both RoSPA and IAM advance bike tests:

Chap had said he had 30 years experience; all very well, proving he was doing if right in the first place.

ATB

Simon

Northwind

supersonic wrote:

Who teaches the coaches? ;-)

Other coaches generally... They're an incestuous bunch.

cloudynights

still think going on a course to ride a bike is daft but eh people like to go on courses these days, some sports you need to, my brother is a scratch golfer he has the odd lesson, my other brother is a street skate boarder he is self taught. Where you find a popular sport you will find people who set up courses to learn it, martial arts is a good example, they set up them up for one thing to make money, my instructors were in it for the money and im not talking about the odd one they were all the same even the masters from japan, i have a mate who races bmx hes old school like me, self taught has the limp and the scars to prove it but hes good, so just because you dont believe in going on courses doesnt mean you wont learn anymore or get better and a course is only as good as the person teaching it

Johnny Napalm

I have to admit to being iintrigued by what you could learn on such courses, but then I never get round to being serious about it.

I have recently improved my riding through reading about technique, and through getting advice from the regulars on here, which has helped me greatly, so I can see how a dedicated course could be of benefit. Now, I ain't anything special, but I am riding better than I was a few weeks ago just through listening to guys on here etc. I'm probably still pants by most peoples' standards, but I have improved compared to what I was like, so I see that as a result.

I like the idea of a course, and I'd never dismiss the idea, but my money always finds its way to other things.

Atz

Well without the course I'd have never "fixed" some poor technique I'd picked up and I surprised myself with how capable I actually was. It's given me far more confidence than I'd have got in the next couple of years of self-teaching. I did teach myself the foundations but the bad habits came with that.

Jedi helped deconstruct my riding, found the good bits and the bad bits and gave me the tools to fix them (with ongoing work) on it. Personally, if I had the money to spend on either coaching or the equivalent value of parts, I'd go get coaching as it's improved my riding a LOT.

NatoED

Rob Warner had "poor" technique yet he was able to win races , Shaun Palmer had awful style of riding . One mans poor technique wins other men races or helps them enjoy riding.

MTB can't be ridden by numbers .

Northwind

NatoED wrote:

Rob Warner had "poor" technique yet he was able to win races

Do you think that's a useful comparison? Warner at his worst was better than everyone on here at their absolute best.

Atz

Do whatever suits you. MY riding got better after coaching, as did that of several friends so we are quite glad we did it.

NatoED

in some ways it is . some guy brought up Andy Murry? It's more to show that a "poor" riding style by one persons judgement maybe the best way for yourself to ride . As you ride more and more that technique may morph into something else that gives you an edge or style that you can enjoy .

If we all were coached to ride the same what fun would that be? When I do go out with friends it's fun to see how our different styles give us advantages or disadvantages in different parts of a trail .

Northwind

NatoED wrote:

If we all were coached to ride the same what fun would that be?

If that was what coaching was like, it'd be rubbish. In reality it isn't like that at all, it's about bringing out the best of what you do and adding to that, or taking away the bits that aren't working. You'll not find any skilled coach who's just trying to turn you into an identikit rider.

NatoED

But surely a rider will progress naturally into a good rider with out coaching . Over reliance on technology ( suspension , disc brakes) and the " I want it all now" kills rider skill . It didn't take long for me to up my skill level just lots of long days in the saddle . Instead of driving to the trials i had to ride as i had no car plus why would you want to miss out on a warm up. This helped to develop better climbing as i had to ride my MTB on roads in south wales .
I lived 8 miles from Afan (before it became a bike park and crap) and 4 away from Margam park (which is a much more fluid ride ) . I would ride 40-50 miles a day from 2.30 pm till 10pm at night in the summer (some times longer) . I was lucky I worked on a golf course . In the winter i would finish work at 4pm so I bought a good set of lights and ride at night .

When out riding I'd ride the same loop 3 or 4 times to get a feel for the trail . If i made a mistake I could see why it happened then know what to avoid . The information I gathered could then be used in other areas . It became much more natural than trying to remember a lesson or a technique I've been taught .

It could be that the new generation of MTBers don't see things in the organic way most riders who started in the early/ mid 90's see their riding . If you saw me ride you'd probably see loads of " poor " technique , well bully to you I enjoy my riding. I'm quicker than most guys that hit Afan with £3K super bikes on my ageing hard tail . hell the wheels i've owned for 12 years .

Nothing will ever teach you more than just getting miles under your wheels and time spent riding the same area . Save the money spent on a coach and just go ride with a bunch of mates and race each other for fun .

Atz

NatoED wrote:

It could be that the new generation of MTBers don't see things in the organic way most riders who started in the early/ mid 90's see their riding . If you saw me ride you'd probably see loads of " poor " technique , well bully to you I enjoy my riding. I'm quicker than most guys that hit Afan with £3K super bikes on my ageing hard tail . hell the wheels i've owned for 12 years .

It seems important to you how expensive people's bikes are. You sure you're having fun if how others have fun is worthy of comment?

Anonymous

Can't say I'm progressing into a good rider naturally.

The problem I and many have is the more technical rides can get advanced to a point where you can lack confidence. The result is coming up to the bigger drops and serious DH-illy sections and bail out, taking the chicken lines instead or walking it down.

No amount of continuous trying makes better, and in the rare case where I do get a bit of confidence I make a mess of it and near kill myself.

Some skills courses concentrate on the fear in the mind and confidence issues, combined with stuff to practice and learn on that will boost confidence.

Not everyone is going to need it, or benefit from it. Some may. I'm stuck and have learnt the hard way that just going for it as a means of learning is not always a sensible thing to do.

popstar

Arghh that old arguing battle.

Hardcore rad doodes preffer to learn and break few bones in order to brag about their mad skillz, it takes years to uncover the truth* or so they say.

New Gen MTB-ers preffer to book skills course to save all those years of feel n knowledge and pay top dollar to avoid horrible injuries and seek that truth* express style.

Which way would you choose? 
The truth* may prove to be expensive.

NatoED

I've never broken a body . I've cut my leg open trials riding and dirt jumping. But never broken anything . Only time i've been injured was when i'm pushing to much in a race .

To comment to Atz the same people say to me " your riding THAT " then turn their noses up . I'd love to have a 3K bike but I can't afford it and if you can get one great I'm not against it . It just that with SOME not all it's inductive of the "i must have every thing now" culture that is entering the hobby/ sport of cycling . People will by the most expensive bike as a first ride then feel angry that they aren't as fast as a slightly over weight bloke on a old hard tail then think that to sort it out they have to buy skills

It doesn't take long to uncover the "truth" at all . In my earlier post I pointed to magazine articles as a good guide , I've used them myself for learning how to corner faster in old MBUK's (infact i have the stored in a green "bike stuff" filer fax.) . I think in the case of dead kenny you bring up an interesting point . I don't think jumping straight to a MTB skills course is a good way of learning but if you are stuck on something specific it may help , but then asking a freind who you know is good on that skill maybe more beneficial too.

Why should you have to pay some one to teach you when you can get good advice from other riders out and about for free? Back in the 90's we never had such coaches for the average Joe . But then again we never expected to be MTB gods from day one. Maybe it's a sense of perspective that has been warped my marketing and the pace of modern life.



Or maybe I'm just a repressed hippy

cloudynights

NatoED wrote:

But surely a rider will progress naturally into a good rider with out coaching . Over reliance on technology ( suspension , disc brakes) and the " I want it all now" kills rider skill . It didn't take long for me to up my skill level just lots of long days in the saddle . Instead of driving to the trials i had to ride as i had no car plus why would you want to miss out on a warm up. This helped to develop better climbing as i had to ride my MTB on roads in south wales .
I lived 8 miles from Afan (before it became a bike park and crap) and 4 away from Margam park (which is a much more fluid ride ) . I would ride 40-50 miles a day from 2.30 pm till 10pm at night in the summer (some times longer) . I was lucky I worked on a golf course . In the winter i would finish work at 4pm so I bought a good set of lights and ride at night .

When out riding I'd ride the same loop 3 or 4 times to get a feel for the trail . If i made a mistake I could see why it happened then know what to avoid . The information I gathered could then be used in other areas . It became much more natural than trying to remember a lesson or a technique I've been taught .

It could be that the new generation of MTBers don't see things in the organic way most riders who started in the early/ mid 90's see their riding . If you saw me ride you'd probably see loads of " poor " technique , well bully to you I enjoy my riding. I'm quicker than most guys that hit Afan with £3K super bikes on my ageing hard tail . hell the wheels i've owned for 12 years .

Nothing will ever teach you more than just getting miles under your wheels and time spent riding the same area . Save the money spent on a coach and just go ride with a bunch of mates and race each other for fun .

well said, thats the best way to learn, miles in the saddle and learn from each ride
i even just take my bike on my front street and balance stationary on it for as long as i can, cost nothing

Cferg

NatoED wrote:

Why should you have to pay some one to teach you when you can get good advice from other riders out and about for free? Back in the 90's we never had such coaches for the average Joe . But then again we never expected to be MTB gods from day one. Maybe it's a sense of perspective that has been warped my marketing and the pace of modern life.

But many people treat MTB skills courses very similarly to Skiing Instruction. I'd be very surprised If you could ski to a high level through only honing your own skills from starting on the slopes. Granted you may become faster but without learning the technique from someone in the know you aint gonna get far. I'm not trying to criticise your point of view as I can see where you're coming from. But from someone like myself that is relatively new to MTB'ing, the techniques taught can provide so much confidence to allow riders to progress naturally. Theres not a shadow of a doubt in my mind that if I had better confidence I'd be a better rider.