Garmin Cervelo - Too Many Cooks ?

All The Gears

What's the problem with Garmin Cervelo ?

Is that having 3 top riders,is confusing matters so much ?

And is Vaughters bottling it by not wanting to upset his stars and put any real clear race plan in place, with a clear team leader ?

iainf72

Lack of legs I would say.

All The Gears

They do look poor at the moment.
Great on paper though,but you get nothing for looking good !

Buckled_Rims

That in-car camera scene where JV told Farrar to race for third was disgraceful to any professional cyclist in my opinion.

As it happened JV was totally wrong and Canc and Chav was caught by others, leaving his team way back when they should have been up front.

OK, it's easy to say this while in an armchair, but it was an 10km out (I think) that they heard JV give up all hope. What kind of mental attitude does that give your riders? They shouldn't give up until someone has passed the finishing line.

Tyler Farrar 1.24mins
Hushovd 4.29
Haussler 8.02

I think that says it all.

iainf72

Buckled_Rims wrote:

That in-car camera scene where JV told Farrar to race for third was disgraceful to any professional cyclist in my opinion.

They had 2 guys in the group. What did you expect them to do? Chase and stand no chance in a sprint? Or if it did come to a sprint, keep something in reserve?

Doobz

I am not sure if the Eurosport Live feed had the pre-race interviews from some of the riders and in some of the Team Busses etc? On Sporza they did

They had one which was the team meeting in the Garmin-Cervello bus before todays race and all I can say is the mood in the bus was akward.

JV was doing his pre-race meeting and asking riders if they were happy to support 3 leaders and only one answered yes.

Thor looked un-impressed and even JV had to ask him directly to get a muffled response.

afx237vi

All The Gears wrote:

What's the problem with Garmin Cervelo ?

Is that having 3 top riders,is confusing matters so much ?

And is Vaughters bottling it by not wanting to upset his stars and put any real clear race plan in place, with a clear team leader ?

Surely the problem is that they have three decent riders, but no top class finishers. Haussler, never won a monument and gets injured a lot... Farrar is OK in a sprint, but when do monuments ever finish in a sprint... Hushovd, who knows where he's been all season.

It's OK arguing that Garmin only had 2 riders in the group when JV gave his "do not ride" order - but why on earth did they only have 2 riders in a group of what, 50-odd riders? Where were Klier, Vanmarcke, Lloyd - usually all decent in these races? Hammond was wasted in the early break, so that backfired too.

andyp

I have to agree with the pixelated monkey, where did their much vaunted strength in depth disappear to today?

A group of 60 or so riders and yet only 2 Garmin riders? That's poor, especially given their supposed surfeit of talent for these races.

As for Haussler, he's not the rider he was two years ago is he? I wonder what happened there?

Tusher

andyp wrote:

As for Haussler, he's not the rider he was two years ago is he? I wonder what happened there?

I could be bitchy and say I've noticed the same thing, since he moved to Garmin, andyp.
But of course, that could just be a coincidence.

I do feel heart-broken for JV though. He must be sobbing into his argyle handkerchief tonight, drowning his sorrows in a bottle of cheap wine.

msp3112

I thought the point at which JV said not to ride was while BMC were driving on the front ( think I'm right). If that was the case surely with just 2 men in that group not riding at that point was the right call.

What the problem was that both hushovd and farrar lacked the legs or positioning when it mattered.

andyp

I think only Buckled_Rims has criticised the decision by Vaughters not to chase, and he clearly has no understanding of racing if he thinks that was the wrong call. Vaughters had no other option as he only had two men left in a group of sixty.

flanners1

The problem with Garmin is JV saying

'I mean'

'you know'

and to mix it up he goes with:

'I mean, you know'

'you know, I mean'

about 2 million times in each interview (cycling news) he must be driving his riders mental with it possibly causing trauma; he is me.

rick_chasey

I think it's a few things.

1) No clear leader - always tricky in Flanders. It helps to have a focal point for the rest of the team. To make sure that, whatever happens, this guy is where he needs to be.

2) Haussler is unlikely to find his '09 form....

3) Hushovd is only really interested in Roubaix and the Tour.

4) Farrar is ultimately a pure sprinter who has a bit of strength - rather than a strong man who has a sprint - which is more useful for the ronde.

blazing_saddles

A 4 minute interview with JV on what went wrong:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFOHEZqyIR0

If the mood was awkward before, it appears to be in an even less desirable place now.

bazbadger

Comparing the 'vibe' in the team from the first BTP films - to the most recent BTP film with the new team - the differences are quite clear.

I'd really like Haussler to do well at something this year, but I'm not that confident at the moment...

CyclingBantam

iainf72 wrote:

Buckled_Rims wrote:

That in-car camera scene where JV told Farrar to race for third was disgraceful to any professional cyclist in my opinion.

They had 2 guys in the group. What did you expect them to do? Chase and stand no chance in a sprint? Or if it did come to a sprint, keep something in reserve?

Totally agree Iain, I knew people would get all reactionary about this. They were not 'only racing for third' they were trying to put them selves in the best position to win. No point in the two rders cooking themselves on the front simply to hand the win to someone else. As they new there were other teams in the group with more, they knew they wouldn't have to pull.

bazbadger

You Know™

pedro118118

I can understand JV's pragmacy - the bottom line was there was no point in Garmin drilling it at the front to bring back the break, as a) they would be spent for any finish and b) they didn't have the legs.........it would've been just like when Devolder decided to come to the front, on his own, and put in a big attack, when BMC were riding hard on the front. Errr........why?!

The official line was Thor was looking/feeling good at Milan San Remo until the crash and Haussler seems to run out of steam at 200km. This leaves Farrar, who doesn't seem to have the full support of the (former Cervelo) team.

It is still fairly early though, and let's not forget the team had some good early season results (inc TDU, Qatar etc). Surely at Paris Roubaix, it will be all for Thor?

Kléber

Maybe it's just a problem of expectations. Haussler, Hushovd and Farrar are good but against Cancellara, Boonen and others they are far from invincible. If they are not on top form for one reason or another then they can't do much.

As for Vaughters radio advice, it was pragmatic stuff. BMC did lots of work and that brought them nothing.

LangerDan

Rick Chasey wrote:

3) Hushovd is only really interested in Roubaix and the Tour.

I thought Thor might do a little more yesterday - he seemed to be very strong on the climbs and was capable of riding back onto Tommekes wheel on the Taaienberg.

4) Farrar is ultimately a pure sprinter who has a bit of strength - rather than a strong man who has a sprint - which is more useful for the ronde.

I'm not sure that Farrar knows what he wants to be anymore. As a "pure sprinter", he'll have his ass handed to him whenever he goes head-to-head with Cav in the hedline events so perhaps he reckons the only other option is to re-invent himself as some form of classics specialist / baroudeur?

rick_chasey

Kléber wrote:

Maybe it's just a problem of expectations. Haussler, Hushovd and Farrar are good but against Cancellara, Boonen and others they are far from invincible. If they are not on top form for one reason or another then they can't do much.

As for Vaughters radio advice, it was pragmatic stuff. BMC did lots of work and that brought them nothing.

They got Ballan in that final post-bosberg group...

smithy21

Rick Chasey wrote:

I think it's a few things.

1) No clear leader - always tricky in Flanders. It helps to have a focal point for the rest of the team. To make sure that, whatever happens, this guy is where he needs to be.

2) Haussler is unlikely to find his '09 form....

3) Hushovd is only really interested in Roubaix and the Tour.

4) Farrar is ultimately a pure sprinter who has a bit of strength - rather than a strong man who has a sprint - which is more useful for the ronde.

I agree with this.

I really dont understand why Haussler is even mentioned as a potential winner of these sorts of races. I dont think he is even close.

Tom Butcher

I think that while there was no point JV sticking men on the front at that point that's not what he was telling the riders - he was pretty much saying the race was over and sit in for the sprint for third. OK so you say it still meant don't go to the front - but there's a difference between telling them that BMC are doing a job for now so let them get on with it and telling them it's game over for the win. Had a look on the Cervelo website and I think Vroomen is saying something about his frustration that they had a decent break of 19 without Cancellara and some of the other teams didn't work with the Garmin riders to keep it away - trying to think at what point in the race that was ?

As a team though I thought they were dire yesterday - their strongest rider appeared to be Roger Hammond. Haussler may run out of steam at 200k but it didn't seem to be a problem when he got second here and in MSR, and Hushovd and Farrar hardly showed their faces yet still weren't in at the decisive selection. Why no Millar - he's shown well in the classics in recent years - is he ill/injured ?

RichN95.

Tom Butcher wrote:

Had a look on the Cervelo website and I think Vroomen is saying something about his frustration that they had a decent break of 19 without Cancellara and some of the other teams didn't work with the Garmin riders to keep it away - trying to think at what point in the race that was ?

It was with about 120k to go, before they hit the main climbs. It was a group of about 20 - Haussler, Steegmans, Kroon, Cav, Eisel, EBH etc. They only got a 40s lead (and they were behind Hunt/Hammond).

Kléber

Rick Chasey wrote:

Kléber wrote:

BMC did lots of work and that brought them nothing.

They got Ballan in that final post-bosberg group...

Exactly. It gave them an option but no more, benefits of most of the hard work went to others.

rick_chasey

Kléber wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Kléber wrote:

BMC did lots of work and that brought them nothing.

They got Ballan in that final post-bosberg group...

Exactly. It gave them an option but no more, benefits of most of the hard work went to others.

Cervelo didn't though!

An option is ultimately better than no option.

dougzz

Kléber wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Kléber wrote:

BMC did lots of work and that brought them nothing.

They got Ballan in that final post-bosberg group...

Exactly. It gave them an option but no more, benefits of most of the hard work went to others.

In hindsight yeah. But surely that was worthwhile because it gave Ballan a shot, OK on the day he wasn't good enough. Ultimately you can pull apart the tactics of everyone except the winner.

All The Gears

When you have two or three guys who are looked on as the favorites and you don’t have anyone there to help them out of a group of 60-70 riders, it makes it real difficult to win,” said Garmin-Cervélo sport director Jonathan Vaughters.

Yes,I suppose that happens but it is probably the case on many occasions,and what's wrong with the other 2 riding for the strongest on the day ?

I think the problems run deeper than race tactics,yes Vaughters was right not to drill the remaining riders when the race was lost.
But I agree with Rick Chasey to a large extent,there is no clear leader,not necessarily a problem unless 3 of them think they should team leader for that race.

I think more crucially when you see Vaughters address the riders in BTP,he comes across so poorly and the body language and atmosphere on the team bus is so negative, that it looks like all is not well on the Garmin Cervelo bus.

LangerDan

Not sure what BMC were at in the finale. Ballan was firing off like a horny teenager on a promise. When Hincapie bridged across, it was like they were on two separate teams - Hincapie sat down the back and hid. If he didn't have the legs -fine, but he still managed to get up for 6th.

Buckled_Rims

andyp wrote:

I think only Buckled_Rims has criticised the decision by Vaughters not to chase, and he clearly has no understanding of racing if he thinks that was the wrong call. Vaughters had no other option as he only had two men left in a group of sixty.

Wrong Andy. I never criticised JV for not chasing, I critised him for telling Tyler Farrar to race for third which is something else completely.

I'd be interested to know what position Nuyens was in the Peloton/Group at that precise time when JV made that call.

If any in Garmin was around Nuyens at that time....well that says a lot more then I can post.

rick_chasey

I think the criticism was not the "don't work on the front" but the "let's race for third"...