Libya
Comments
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Abraham (2000-1700BC?) is supposedly the ancestor of the Jews AND Arabs (through his son Ishmael) as distinct tribes.Weejie54 wrote:It makes perfect sense as it is historically accurate.
Hmm..Judaism is dated by the lifetime of Abraham... Not exactly historic accuracy regarding organised religion.
Worth a read: http://www.amazon.com/Abraham-Journey-H ... 0380977761
Judaism, as a distinct and organized religion, and later Christianity and then Islam, all became defined as distinct religions many, many centuries after the time of Abraham.0 -
Abraham (2000-1700BC?) is supposedly the ancestor of the Jews, Christians AND Arabs (through his son Ishmael) as distinct tribes.
Judaism, as a distinct and organized religion, and later Christianity and then Islam, all became defined as distinct religions many, many centuries after the time of Abraham.
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All theology is claptrap. Where is the proof of these events? Writings written by a group of tribal elders that could have been written by anybody? If all these fantastic events in the evolution of religion did occur, how come we haven't had a fantastic event in the lifetime of modern history? Religion is a tool to keep people under control through fear of the unknown and invented during times when there was no police force to do the job for them. The middle east and north Africa have managed to retain that fear by keeping their populace ignorant of developments around the world. Fear brings power to the zealots and extremists.
This is not to deny everyone's entitlement to a belief, but not to the detriment of all others. Even if you acknowledge we are descended from our evolutionary ancestors, it begs the broader question of where did they come from? And the biggy of if god does exist, who created him? Agnostic theism is alive and well.
Oh and Gaddifi is a pleb.I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.0 -
philthy3 wrote:All theology is claptrap. Where is the proof of these events? Writings written by a group of tribal elders that could have been written by anybody? If all these fantastic events in the evolution of religion did occur, how come we haven't had a fantastic event in the lifetime of modern history?
Oo you post-modernist you.0 -
Oh and Gaddifi is a pleb.
So was Dickhead the Lionheart - but don't let that deter you from providing some entertainment.0 -
And I suppose by your reasoning Saladin was a misunderstood individual who didn't do any of the equally barbaric things that the Crusaders did?
RC - just cal me someone who whilst believing is yet to see any proof of it.I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.0 -
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I don't you devil's advocate you.
But we choose one side or another with what we read and see every day whether it be from news reports on TV or in the papers or eye witness accounts. I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.0 -
philthy3 wrote:All theology is claptrap. Where is the proof of these events? Writings written by a group of tribal elders that could have been written by anybody? If all these fantastic events in the evolution of religion did occur, how come we haven't had a fantastic event in the lifetime of modern history? Religion is a tool to keep people under control through fear of the unknown and invented during times when there was no police force to do the job for them. The middle east and north Africa have managed to retain that fear by keeping their populace ignorant of developments around the world. Fear brings power to the zealots and extremists.
This is not to deny everyone's entitlement to a belief, but not to the detriment of all others. Even if you acknowledge we are descended from our evolutionary ancestors, it begs the broader question of where did they come from? And the biggy of if god does exist, who created him? Agnostic theism is alive and well.
Oh and Gaddifi is a pleb.
Whether or not one "believes", religion has proven to be a survival advantage for most societies throughout most of history, which is why IMO religion persists despite it being "claptrap". Just about every country and society that exists is, or was (until quite recent times) strongly religious.
PS Historically, police states are not as durable as societies controlled through religion - because religion puts a policeman inside every citizen's head.0 -
I'm not saying a police state is better than control through religion, I'm merely giving a reason why it was invented. From the early days of religion to even now, warnings of being cast into the fire and tortured mercilessly in the depths of hell would have seemed horrific and too terrifying to contemplate. Today you'd get more of "How's that work then?" response from your average member of the public but there are still enough people susceptible to persuassion of the mind to believe some of these warnings.
I don't know what the figures are, but I'd be interested to see what the drop out rate is for people studying theology.I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.0 -
snailracer wrote:Whether or not one "believes", religion has proven to be a survival advantage for most societies throughout most of history, which is why IMO religion persists despite it being "claptrap". Just about every country and society that exists is, or was (until quite recent times) strongly religious.
PS Historically, police states are not as durable as societies controlled through religion - because religion puts a policeman inside every citizen's head.
You sound like a social darwinist.
It could be, that rather than 'surivival' it is just a naturally occuring human phenomenon?
Religion was understood differently a while back. Often, the church or religious institution behaved as a state, and indeed, conceptually, was, as we understand it today, the state. That's ultimately why there is a bit of a dilema as to the role of religion with a strong state.
A good example I can think of is to look at the papacy during and immediately after the unification of Italy.
Discussing the role of religion in society 500+ years ago in the context and understanding of religion today is misleading.
And your 'police' state satement is bizzare at best, since the concept of one only first comes into the epistemological space about around the mid to late 19th Century - which would make sense given that states are a reasonably modern way of governing.0 -
No, I am just an observer.Rick Chasey wrote:You sound like a social darwinist.
Could be, although there is presently not much of this "natural phenomenon" about in the UK.Rick Chasey wrote:It could be, that rather than 'surivival' it is just a naturally occuring human phenomenon?
Which begs the question, why so few secular states in history? Surely those would have succeeded as they did not have to waste resources building cathedrals and pyramids?Rick Chasey wrote:Religion was understood differently a while back. Often, the church or religious institution behaved as a state, and indeed, conceptually, was, as we understand it today, the state. That's ultimately why there is a bit of a dilema as to the role of religion with a strong state.
As humans with a lifespan considerably less than 500+ years, today's context is all we have. We can try to put ourselves in the mindset of the times, but the only foolproof way to avoid misleading ourselves is to never discuss it.Rick Chasey wrote:Discussing the role of religion in society 500+ years ago in the context and understanding of religion today is misleading.
My police state reference was in response to Philthy3's post about control of the masses in the context of a totalitarian police state, a modern innovation which, as the Soviet and Middle Eastern models demonstrate, is not very durable.Rick Chasey wrote:And your 'police' state satement is bizzare at best, since the concept of one only first comes into the epistemological space about around the mid to late 19th Century - which would make sense given that states are a reasonably modern way of governing.0 -
dmclite wrote:mattshrops wrote:just look at how many un resolutions israel is continually in breach of, where is the will to do anything there?
Israel writes its own mandate and quite rightly so. Israel has balls and i admire israel greatly.
so by that logic you admire gaddafi , saddam, hitler- all of them had balls??
or is your view of israel so coloured by the holocaust that they cant do anything wrong?
please do not accuse me of being anti semitic that would be very low (and wrong)
Is the un anti semitic? it is their resolutions being broken.Death or Glory- Just another Story0 -
religion is just a form of control. no surprise that as the political power of rome fell, christianity rose to power in er.. rome.straight swap-pretty clever really.
religion also continues to exist because a hell of a lot of people cannot accept dead is dead.
it also carries the ultimate unanswerable edict- are you questioning the will of god??cant win on that one unless you live in a society that wont stone you to death for blasphemy.Death or Glory- Just another Story0 -
There is a fine line between between "control" and "organisation". The success of the religious societies suggests there is an organisational advantage.mattshrops wrote:religion is just a form of control.
OTOH, it could be said that Christianity triumphed, despite centuries of fantastically bloodthirsty persecution by the Roman state.mattshrops wrote:... no surprise that as the political power of rome fell, christianity rose to power in er.. rome.straight swap-pretty clever really...
If life was brutal, nasty and short, then I can see the attraction of an afterlife - in heaven, that ismattshrops wrote:religion also continues to exist because a hell of a lot of people cannot accept dead is dead.
And remember, heaven was only for those who lived a righteous life - which is motivation to obey the laws and help others.
Every society claims ultimate authority, be it in the name of God, the Law, the Crown, or even the People, and have exercised the power of life and death with it.mattshrops wrote:it also carries the ultimate unanswerable edict- are you questioning the will of god??cant win on that one unless you live in a society that wont stone you to death for blasphemy.0 -
The expression 'Be careful what you wish for' springs to mind with all the civil uprisings in the middle east and north africa. Ask the Iranians. Deposed a dictator, ended up with a much much worse regime, and the country is less prosperous and now isolated.
Everyone should be more worried about the potential fall of the royal family in Saudi. The west has been supplying the latest weapons to this hardline state for years. It apparently has the largest fleet of Eurofighter Typhoons. This could all fall in to the hands of the mad mullahs. Extreme religion has a habit of filling the vacuum left after the fall of a regime. If Saudi goes we could see the birth of an Islamic super state across the region. With Israel slap bang in the middle. All hell will break loose and the West will drawn into a huge conflict. Your thoughts.Always be yourself, unless you can be Aaron Rodgers....Then always be Aaron Rodgers.0 -
I notice that the world police are positioning forces in the area. I believe that the ship is called the 'Forgone Conclusion'Science adjusts it’s beliefs based on what’s observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved0 -
Mr Goo wrote:The expression 'Be careful what you wish for' springs to mind with all the civil uprisings in the middle east and north africa. Ask the Iranians. Deposed a dictator, ended up with a much much worse regime, and the country is less prosperous and now isolated.
Everyone should be more worried about the potential fall of the royal family in Saudi. The west has been supplying the latest weapons to this hardline state for years. It apparently has the largest fleet of Eurofighter Typhoons. This could all fall in to the hands of the mad mullahs. Extreme religion has a habit of filling the vacuum left after the fall of a regime. If Saudi goes we could see the birth of an Islamic super state across the region. With Israel slap bang in the middle. All hell will break loose and the West will drawn into a huge conflict. Your thoughts.
My thoughts are you are being a little condescending to those protesting. Their demands are pretty simple - they're by and large free from religous rhetoric.
It's in a different context in which they are protesting. It's anger at opressive regimes, and, as with most protests, anger with the sharp rise in food prices and empty stomachs.
There's an assumption in your comment that the middle east is, by definition, anti-west (not strictly the case - to hear the protesters asking for Western help would suggest that anti-west sentiment is a little more localised than we would like to believe) and that it Islam can't function as a democracy of some form, which I think is also not the case.
Any step towards a freer, more liberal society can't be damned or feared, especially when its in place of largely despotic and certainly brutal and unfair systems that existed before.0 -
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... o-fly-zone
An excellent article from a Libyan in Tripoli.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:This is all beside the point. It doesn't matter which is the oldest religion..
As an aside, the anti-regime demonstrations across the middle east put a big dent in the argument that, somehow, Islam can't fundamentally function alongside a democracy. Part of me wonders how people like Gert Wilders are justifying their rhetoric in light of this.
Indonesia - democracy with the largest Muslim population in the world - they get it wrong alot of the time, they use extreme force to put down religious extremism and the have dual systems in place to appease some of the population (Aceh has Sharia Law).....but they are a functioning democracy where the majority of people are practising Muslims and it is working.0 -
markyboy2005 wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:This is all beside the point. It doesn't matter which is the oldest religion..
As an aside, the anti-regime demonstrations across the middle east put a big dent in the argument that, somehow, Islam can't fundamentally function alongside a democracy. Part of me wonders how people like Gert Wilders are justifying their rhetoric in light of this.
Indonesia - democracy with the largest Muslim population in the world - they get it wrong alot of the time, they use extreme force to put down religious extremism and the have dual systems in place to appease some of the population (Aceh has Sharia Law).....but they are a functioning democracy where the majority of people are practising Muslims and it is working.
Quite.0 -
Be interesting to see how things pan out with the upsurge in Christianity in Indonesia.I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.0
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philthy3 wrote:Be interesting to see how things pan out with the upsurge in Christianity in Indonesia.
What upsurge? I'm not aware of it.
They have a system called Panacea (or something like that) where all religions are toerated and even encouraged although mob rule in some communities (Kampungs) goes against that. Often corupt local authorities use religion as an excuse not to allow building permits for building churches, but on the whole other religions are tolerated.
Hinduism is the main religion in Bali and that is never challenged.
Like all countries with a dominant religion there can be intolerance at ground level of other religions (USA, UK, Switzerland) but as a country and a system they recognise all religion and the right to practice it,0 -
I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.0
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philthy3 wrote:
Interesting article....about a year old.
To be honest did not read it all in detail, supposed to be working.
Will be interesting indeed to see how this is handled, but even with a "large" increase in Christians demonstarting their faith, Indonesia will remain very much a Muslim country with a healthy democracy.0 -
I'd love to know who made the West arbiters of world affairs.
Let the events in Japan serve as a warning that just because you think you have a lot of money (and by the way the US and the UK actallly have massive national debts) or you consider yourself to be a leading nation or you have advanced weaponry you can't just go throwing your weight around in your twisted self-righteousness when your own conduct is often worse than those who you are trying to correct.0 -
Agree - we should not be acting as the world's policeman. I don't see it as the role of a UK govt to intervene in what is effectively an internal conflict in Libya. This isn't as simple as a monster oppressing an entire people - there are tribal and relgious divisions here and effectively this could turn into a full blown civil war.
If people feel strongly about Gaddafi then they are free to form an international brigade and go and join the rebels.
it's a hard life if you don't weaken.0 -
Japes wrote:I'd love to know who made the West arbiters of world affairs.
Let the events in Japan serve as a warning that just because you think you have a lot of money (and by the way the US and the UK actallly have massive national debts) or you consider yourself to be a leading nation or you have advanced weaponry you can't just go throwing your weight around in your twisted self-righteousness when your own conduct is often worse than those who you are trying to correct.
Japanese deficit was over 200% of GDP - the UK, is knocking around 70% odd.
I think the libyan issue is a little different. Providing air support to a popular uprising isn't quite the same as 'correcting conduct' > i.e. invading to change a gov't. Libya is not Iraq.0 -
No, it's a whole new can of worms...
Over the weekend there were similar episodes of brutal repression in Ivory Coast, Yemen, Syria and Bahrain. So far there have been no 'UN' air strikes.0 -
In fact the King of Bahrain was invited to the Royal Wedding.
it's a hard life if you don't weaken.0
