Let's have it: Has multiculturalism failed?

mattsaw

You don't see the same in the US (for all its other and obvious faults over the years) which is arguably the biggest mutli-cultural society with no one country dominating its cultural make up since 1776.

That's because the US make up their own sports that nobody else plays. You would get the same thing if they were any good at Cricket.

bails87

The Beginner wrote:

Example, I work with a second generation "Pakistani", Both parents are first gen', when England play Pakistan at cricket, he supports Pakistan (in a very partisan manner I have to say), something says to me that something has gone wrong in that he doesn't support England, that is the place he was born, the place he was brought up, educated and works. Whatever the reasons for him supporting Pakistan over England, that, to me, is a failure of the 'multicultural society',

So what? I don't think there's a single Man Utd fan from Manchester! It doesn't mean anything's failed. If the guy was going around telling people he was going to murder you because you wouldn't fly the Pakistani flag outside your house. Or he was hunting down 'white devils' then yeah, that's a problem.

And you don't see that in America? How many Americans call themselves Italian or Irish?!

side note: The not-so-great Islamist menace
A snippet: 294 terror attacks (failed, foiled or succesful) in Europe in 2009, 237 were by seperatist movements. "Islamists? They were behind a grand total of one attack. Yes, one. Out of 294 attacks. In a population of half a billion people. To put that in perspective, the same number of attacks was committed by the Comite d'Action Viticole, a French group that wants to stop the importation of foreign wine. "

Something to remember when a newspaper columnist writes "not all muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists are muslims". They've done it before and they'll do it again, because an opinion column is allowed to be a page of downright lies, because the readers know it's 'just an opinion'......

MonkeyMonster

notsoblue wrote:

+1, There are a few books specifically about the history of the East End that cover this. Its quite interesting to see how communities change. This view is very common: "If you come here to live its expected that you will live with british values - we aren't a refugee camp where you can live as you did at home with all the benefits of our support structure." But really its not as simple as that.

Indeed it won't be and there will always be many many factors, but is not acceptable to say that there are more than a few people who don't want to change their way of life and still want to live here? I was trying to remember if there had been any british flags burnt by minority groups over here - anyone remember/know?

Imagine a situation where you as a "british" [not that strongly faithed, few kids etc] family slowly being surrounded by others who behave very differently to you - are you going to move somewhere where you feel surround by more like minded individuals or stay? Is it the british families fault for wanting to move away from this or is it the ones moving in that should be changing to fit their surroundings better?

rick_chasey

MonkeyMonster wrote:

[
Imagine a situation where you as a "british" [not that strongly faithed, few kids etc] family slowly being surrounded by others who behave very differently to you - are you going to move somewhere where you feel surround by more like minded individuals or stay? Is it the british families fault for wanting to move away from this or is it the ones moving in that should be changing to fit their surroundings better?

The point is that multiculturalism cuts both ways.

Those who move to the UK are likely, by viture of the fact they're moving to a new culture, to be more aware of the issue of different cultures, and are, like it or not, more likely to be receptive to co-cultural habiation.

The 'white flight' point, is that those who already live there, the locals, are often unwilling to tolerate - and therein lies the problem. The issue with Cameron's speech is that it reinforces this bit - which is the bit that needs to be addressed!

Realistically, multiculturalism is an issue that will remain a social phenomenon for the forseeable future, so it should be addressed, not rebuffed.

bails87

MonkeyMonster wrote:

I was trying to remember if there had been any british flags burnt by minority groups over here - anyone remember/know?

I don't know, but there's plenty of minority buildings burning down.

notsoblue

MonkeyMonster wrote:

notsoblue wrote:

+1, There are a few books specifically about the history of the East End that cover this. Its quite interesting to see how communities change. This view is very common: "If you come here to live its expected that you will live with british values - we aren't a refugee camp where you can live as you did at home with all the benefits of our support structure." But really its not as simple as that.

Indeed it won't be and there will always be many many factors, but is not acceptable to say that there are more than a few people who don't want to change their way of life and still want to live here? I was trying to remember if there had been any british flags burnt by minority groups over here - anyone remember/know?

Imagine a situation where you as a "british" [not that strongly faithed, few kids etc] family slowly being surrounded by others who behave very differently to you - are you going to move somewhere where you feel surround by more like minded individuals or stay? Is it the british families fault for wanting to move away from this or is it the ones moving in that should be changing to fit their surroundings better?

Well its difficult for me to comment on that because for a significant part of my life I was an immigrant somewhere, and as a bi-racial person myself my life has always been pretty multicultural. I've never really been tethered to a particular town or city, and neither has my family. But I have lived in areas where I've been in a cultural minority and while it can be intimidating at first, it can pay dividends to reach out into the community.

I can see how I may have a different attitude if I was settled with kids though...

daviesee

MonkeyMonster wrote:

I was trying to remember if there had been any british flags burnt by minority groups over here - anyone remember/know?

Google quite easily comes up with answers...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQLpG5b18pk

tailwindhome

If only there were an area of the UK which we could have two seperate communities, living mainly seperate lives, following their own traditions, religion and culture, suspicious that the other may try to impose their 'way of life' by force and that their own identity may be erased.

Maybe leave them there for a couple of hundred years as a long term experiment just to see what happens?

_Brun_

TailWindHome wrote:

If only there were an area of the UK which we could have two seperate communities, living mainly seperate lives, following their own traditions, religion and culture, suspicious that the other may try to impose their 'way of life' by force and that their own identity may be erased.

You've obviously never been to Bradford.

Cafewanda

_Brun_ wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

If only there were an area of the UK which we could have two seperate communities, living mainly seperate lives, following their own traditions, religion and culture, suspicious that the other may try to impose their 'way of life' by force and that their own identity may be erased.

Took me back to my childhood in South London. Happy days :roll:

tailwindhome

Bradford?
South London?

Never heard of them.

The Rookie

Or Leicester.....

Or Coventry.......

Simon

tailwindhome

Whoosssshhhh!

MonkeyMonster

TailWindHome wrote:

Whoosssshhhh!

see if you wore a helmet that would have most definately blocked that from going over your head

Cafewanda

@ TWH (if allowed)

tailwindhome

Cafewanda wrote:

@ TWH (if allowed)

No it's not allowed

I made a quite brilliant post and you and Brun just went and spoiled it.

_Brun_

TailWindHome wrote:

Cafewanda wrote:

@ TWH (if allowed)

No it's not allowed

I made a quite brilliant post and you and Brun just went and spoiled it.

My work here is done.

rjsterry

TailWindHome wrote:

Cafewanda wrote:

@ TWH (if allowed)

No it's not allowed

I made a quite brilliant post and you and Brun just went and spoiled it.

Well I got the point. That's probably no consolation.

tailwindhome

rjsterry wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Cafewanda wrote:

@ TWH (if allowed)

No it's not allowed

I made a quite brilliant post and you and Brun just went and spoiled it.

Well I got the point. That's probably no consolation.

None whatsoever

But thanks anyway

DonDaddyD

rjsterry wrote:

Whilst I'm not sure I entirely agree with my friend on this, I think she has a point. I think it's a bit odd when people researching their family tree actively wanting to find a foreign ancestor rather than just being English all the way back.

History, family history, racial and cultural heritage can play a part in developing who you are. Therefore for some its more important to them than others.

Lastly, anyone got any idea what things they could include in a list of specifically British values? Lots of people talk about them as though they are self-evident, but I think most would be hard pushed to name anything substantial.

Chiken tikka masala

Tea

Grime music

Just to start the list going

rjsterry

DonDaddyD wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Whilst I'm not sure I entirely agree with my friend on this, I think she has a point. I think it's a bit odd when people researching their family tree actively wanting to find a foreign ancestor rather than just being English all the way back.

History, family history, racial and cultural heritage can play a part in developing who you are. Therefore for some its more important to them than others.

Lastly, anyone got any idea what things they could include in a list of specifically British values? Lots of people talk about them as though they are self-evident, but I think most would be hard pushed to name anything substantial.

Chiken tikka masala

Tea

Grime music

Just to start the list going

I was meaning that it's interesting that some people seem to go out of their way to try and prove that they're really ever so exotic, when one French great great great grandparent means bugger all in the grand scheme of things.

I was thinking more of values rather than things: a couple that are often trotted out are:

Sense of fair play

Self-deprecating sense of humour

Supporting the underdog

Manners - we think everyone else is rude/blunt, they think we can't get to the point.

I think the above are more national aspirations, rather than an accurate reflection of the British identity as it actually is, but it's still a start. There are also the more negative things like rubbishing anyone who achieves (usually shortly after we were rooting for them as an underdog), inter-class snobbery to name a couple.

diplomacy

it's important to distinguish the concept of a multiculture from that of ethnic diversity. britain is a multicultural society and it has been for hundreds of years. our national identity is built on the 'keep yourself to yourself' attitude, the trader mentality, that pervades all levels of social intercourse and allows us to divide ourselves into cultural, religious and social groups. to say that it has failed is quite odd, it is like standing in an orchard and saying apples are a failure, we should just rip up the country and start again?

i lived in paris for a few years and was struck by the difference there, just as much ethnic diversity but much more submission to a french monoculture, in language, dress and so on. you can have a moroccan cafe there, but it MUST HAVE A RED AWNING.

which is better? i'm not sure. i love the way that london is a world in miniature, but the other side of it - british people exporting themselves into enclaves in dubai or rhodesia - is quite ugly to me. so i am conflicted.

DonDaddyD

I agree with you Mr Sterry.

I can never get my head around 'British politeness' and has been the cause of many a row between me and Ms DDD....

rjsterry

DonDaddyD wrote:

I agree with you Mr Sterry.

I can never get my head around 'British politeness' and has been the cause of many a row between me and Ms DDD....

OTOH, you can be incredibly rude to someone and have them think you are being very polite :twisted: