Let's have it: Has multiculturalism failed?

DonDaddyD

So the English Defence League decided to march in Luton in protest of 'Extreme Islamism' (as the EDL chap on newsnight kept referring to it as).

At the same time David Cameron announced in a speech that multiculturalism in Britain has failed, the UK needs a stronger national identity and a tougher stance needs to be taken on Islamist Extremists.

So as I look lovingly into my girlfriends eyes, both of us born with strong cultural views and yet a singular life, I'm left wondering what the f*ck is he on about.

So I put it to you all, is he right? Has multiculturalism failed?

Agent57

Dunno. Like Big Society, I don't really know what it means.

DonDaddyD

To be honest I'm left wondering what did he mean:

Does he mean that Britain needs a stronger national identity?

Does he mean a tougher stance of Islam Extremists?

Or does he mean that the cultural integration of various ethnicities and races over the years in Britian has failed?

Because I only agree with one of those points.

UndercoverElephant

To be fair, I do think England needs a stronger cultural identity, the rest of the UK does pretty well.

EKE_38BPM

Considering that the largest growing race under the age of 5 is 'mixed', very few people get grief for seeing a partner out of their race and, generally, racism is frowned upon, I would say no.

Nothing is perfect and there will always be extremists with any point of view. Militant, car hating cyclists for example.

At one end of the spectrum you have the EDL at the other, extreme islamists. Most of the general population is somewhere in the middle.

DonDaddyD

EKE_38BPM wrote:

Considering that the largest growing race under the age of 5 is 'mixed', very few people get grief for seeing a partner out of their race and, generally, racism is frowned upon, I would say no.

Nothing is perfect and there will always be extremists with any point of view. Militant, car hating cyclists for example.

At one end of the spectrum you have the EDL at the other, extreme islamists. Most of the general population is somewhere in the middle.

Considering the changing face of England (I didn't know that statistic ('mixed') interesting. Gonna use that next time I'm in and argument.

Isn't a worry that the Prime Minister could come out with something so blatantly unrepresented as 'Multiculturalism has failed'.

Also British cultural has changed, so it stands to reason the National identity would change as well.

CiB

Angela Merkel made exactly the same speech in Germany last October, claiming that attempts to live side-by-side with different groups had failed. Sounds like a theme is developing across Europe.

What does it mean? From Ms Merkel's speech and the way Cameron's was reported over the weekend, it comes across as an admission that different racial groups at population level don't necessarily integrate very well, so rather than trying to force that to happen we might need to try to something else. But then the BBC never were very good at being neutral when it comes to reporting Conservative policies and announcements so I tend to ignore anything they have to say on the current govt these days.

Is this another attempt at finding something to be miffed about?

Tonymufc

I think ideally the thought of many cultural and ethnical (not sure thats a word) backgrounds that collectively call themselves British whilst still recognising their heritage. However I'm not convinced either that this has happened. My wifes parents are Greek Cypriot. Now whilst my wife and all her siblings were born in this country she refers to herself as being Greek not British. I've asked her many many times why this is. Her response I found quite a shock when she first said it. The reason is "because I don't look British, and people have always asked me what country I'm from". So my next question was, "well what does a British person look like"?

Not sure if I'm off the mark on this one.

DonDaddyD

CiB wrote:

Angela Merkel made exactly the same speech in Germany last October, claiming that attempts to live side-by-side with different groups had failed. Sounds like a theme is developing across Europe.

What does it mean? From Ms Merkel's speech and the way Cameron's was reported over the weekend, it comes across as an admission that different racial groups at population level don't necessarily integrate very well, so rather than trying to force that to happen we might need to try to something else. But then the BBC never were very good at being neutral when it comes to reporting Conservative policies and announcements so I tend to ignore anything they have to say on the current govt these days.

Is this another attempt at finding something to be miffed about?

I was stunned by Merkel's statement as well. And you're right it does sound like a theme developing across Europe, France's Burka actions for example.

So what's the try something else?

And are they (I don't think you can answer this) going to target specific racial goups or paint brush them all.

rick_chasey

Weather you consider multiculturalism is something that can be considered a social experiemnt that can fail, as opposed to a fundamental social phenomenan that will always exist in one shape or another and so must be accodomated, is ultimately ideological.

Thus, to consider whether it's failed is a little limiting...

Even then, if you take multiculturalism as something that can 'fail' as opposed to a social phenomenon that just exists, your opinion is still going to be ideologically driven - so a debate is a little meaningless.

For what it's worth, I believe picking on Muslims for social incohesion is picking on the victims.

Sewinman

He was speaking at security conference. I believe he was saying the multiculturalism had failed because some Muslims had become radicalised terrorists. My understanding of multi-culturalism is 'live and let live' attitude and not to question too closely if other religions don't uphold the same values as 'the British'.

He is basically having a swipe at Muslim organisations who do not fully condemn radicals and their actions.

MonkeyMonster

I think what he's meaning is that the definition of multiculturism shouldn't be self disiplining enclaves - which is what we have now, small areas of britain that are now effectively running like back 'ome - wherever that may have been. He's wanting people here to believe what they want, behave within reason to their values etc but to realise they are over in britain - it is NOT perfectly fine to do what they used to do at home over here.

When in Rome, does as the romans do. Not when in Rome, ostracise/be rude/agressive anyone of different religion and think its pefectly fine to batter the crap out of your sister because she went out with "a white guy" because you'd be perfectly allowed to do so where you at "home". Okay so I picked an incident that was recently reported on but it remains a valid point.

If you come here to live its expected that you will live with british values - we aren't a refugee camp where you can live as you did at home with all the benefits of our support structure.

Surely?

rick_chasey

DonDaddyD wrote:

CiB wrote:

Angela Merkel made exactly the same speech in Germany last October, claiming that attempts to live side-by-side with different groups had failed. Sounds like a theme is developing across Europe.

What does it mean? From Ms Merkel's speech and the way Cameron's was reported over the weekend, it comes across as an admission that different racial groups at population level don't necessarily integrate very well, so rather than trying to force that to happen we might need to try to something else. But then the BBC never were very good at being neutral when it comes to reporting Conservative policies and announcements so I tend to ignore anything they have to say on the current govt these days.

Is this another attempt at finding something to be miffed about?

I was stunned by Merkel's statement as well. And you're right it does sound like a theme developing across Europe, France's Burka actions for example.

So what's the try something else?

And are they (I don't think you can answer this) going to target specific racial goups or paint brush them all.

The rightward swing accross Europe has been occuring for a while - just take a look at the European parliament elections to see that.

The Netherlands is an even starker example than Germany.

tx14

MonkeyMonster wrote:

I think what he's meaning is that the definition of multiculturism shouldn't be self disiplining enclaves - which is what we have now, small areas of britain that are now effectively running like back 'ome - wherever that may have been. He's wanting people here to believe what they want, behave within reason to their values etc but to realise they are over in britain - it is NOT perfectly fine to do what they used to do at home over here.

When in Rome, does as the romans do. Not when in Rome, ostracise/be rude/agressive anyone of different religion and think its pefectly fine to batter the crap out of your sister because she went out with "a white guy" because you'd be perfectly allowed to do so where you at "home". Okay so I picked an incident that was recently reported on but it remains a valid point.

If you come here to live its expected that you will live with british values - we aren't a refugee camp where you can live as you did at home with all the benefits of our support structure.

Surely?

like what?

Edit: not beat people is the law not british value. are you saying there are too many people perverting the law by claiming religious persecution?

DonDaddyD

Tonymufc wrote:

I think ideally the thought of many cultural and ethnical (not sure thats a word) backgrounds that collectively call themselves British whilst still recognising their heritage. However I'm not convinced either that this has happened. My wifes parents are Greek Cypriot. Now whilst my wife and all her siblings were born in this country she refers to herself as being Greek not British. I've asked her many many times why this is. Her response I found quite a shock when she first said it. The reason is "because I don't look British, and people have always asked me what country I'm from". So my next question was, "well what does a British person look like"?

Not sure if I'm off the mark on this one.

Good point. Because I'm a cantankerous bastard I use the same thing on Ms DDD. I will die before I refer to myself as British. British Citizen of African and Caribbean descent is my usual go to description. Why, course of life.

However go a few generation down, so my Brother (12yrs younger than me) and possibly mine or his Kids and they'll likely just refer to themselves as British but then Britian (society) has treated them differently. Referred to them differently. But telling people multicultrualism has failed isn't a way of integrating cultures togethers.

I wonder what's next clearly defined class structure. Oh boy....

DonDaddyD

tx14 wrote:

MonkeyMonster wrote:

I think what he's meaning is that the definition of multiculturism shouldn't be self disiplining enclaves - which is what we have now, small areas of britain that are now effectively running like back 'ome - wherever that may have been. He's wanting people here to believe what they want, behave within reason to their values etc but to realise they are over in britain - it is NOT perfectly fine to do what they used to do at home over here.

When in Rome, does as the romans do. Not when in Rome, ostracise/be rude/agressive anyone of different religion and think its pefectly fine to batter the crap out of your sister because she went out with "a white guy" because you'd be perfectly allowed to do so where you at "home". Okay so I picked an incident that was recently reported on but it remains a valid point.

If you come here to live its expected that you will live with british values - we aren't a refugee camp where you can live as you did at home with all the benefits of our support structure.

Surely?

like what?

I agree with MonkeyMonster here. And to be honest my Jamaican Grandparents (because Jamaica was a British colony) have so very middle class traditions. Still, i would argue that our family culture is a mix of Jamaican and British.

Mixing in Ms DDD's Irish and Cockney is gonna be hard when/if we start a family. Chaz and Dave. Urugh.

Sewinman

I really don't think he is referring to supporting the West Indians at cricket when you were born in the UK - he is talking about people who blow up their fellow citizens for religious reasons etc.

rick_chasey

Sewinman wrote:

I really don't think he is referring to supporting the West Indians at cricket when you were born in the UK - he is talking about people who blow up their fellow citizens for religious reasons etc.

Becasue there are so many of those...

Funny how no-one mentions the IRA when they discuss bombing stuff.

Tonymufc

If it has (multiculturalism) failed then surely we're all guilty. Those that don't want to accecpt that they are British (wether they like it or not) and those that, lets face it, view someone of colour (wether they like it or not) as British and not assume that they come from some foreign land.

DDD, just curious as to what passport you hold?

My wifes is a British one.

You see where I'm going with this don't you.

Bikequin

To be fair to DC, Trevor Phillips came out with exactly the same comment in 2004/2005. I think MonkeyMonster has got things about right.

W1

DonDaddyD wrote:

I will die before I refer to myself as British. British Citizen of African and Caribbean descent is my usual go to description.

Is this not indicative of the failure of multiculturalism (whatever that is)? I am presuming that you were born here, enjoyed the benefits of growing up and living here, and now work, live and want to bring up a family here yet you'd rather die than announce (let alone be proud) of the fact that you are British? You'd rather expressly state your relatives' nationality than your own?

That's not a dig at you DDD. It's just interesting. I always presumed that when people move to other countries they do so on the basis that they want to adopt that other country as their own and be proud of it.

Integration fails because (a) people aren't allowed to integrate or (b) because the new-comers don't want to integrate. I don't know which is to blame for the increasingly segregated areas of the UK.

SimonAH

I think the main point made was that the country should no longer fund culturally biased groups that have an exclusive 'non-integrationalist' bias.

As it happens I agree with that.

And I am first generation UK born by the way.

Tonymufc

W1 wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

I will die before I refer to myself as British. British Citizen of African and Caribbean descent is my usual go to description.

Is this not indicative of the failure of multiculturalism (whatever that is)? I am presuming that you were born here, enjoyed the benefits of growing up and living here, and now work, live and want to bring up a family here yet you'd rather die than announce (let alone be proud) of the fact that you are British? You'd rather expressly state your relatives' nationality than your own?

That's not a dig at you DDD. It's just interesting. I always presumed that when people move to other countries they do so on the basis that they want to adopt that other country as their own and be proud of it.

Integration fails because (a) people aren't allowed to integrate or (b) because the new-comers don't want to integrate. I don't know which is to blame for the increasingly segregated areas of the UK.

This is what I was trying to say. You've put it much better than me.

DonDaddyD

W1 wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

I will die before I refer to myself as British. British Citizen of African and Caribbean descent is my usual go to description.

Is this not indicative of the failure of multiculturalism (whatever that is)? I am presuming that you were born here, enjoyed the benefits of growing up and living here, and now work, live and want to bring up a family here yet you'd rather die than announce (let alone be proud) of the fact that you are British? You'd rather expressly state your relatives' nationality than your own?

"Walk a mile in my shoes and find out how the World treats me"

Why should I be afraid to decidedly point out that I am a British citizen of a particular racial decent, which I'm proud of? In the course of my life when people have been ready to remind me of it they haven't hesitated.

I don't think it makes me any less British, just perhaps a British you aren't entirely familar with. It also doesn't make me any less a functioning part of British society.

And given the history of that particular race and loss of cultural identity (for a time) I think its important to acknowledge that.

Of course, I don't expect my kids to feel the same way. They'll probably be quite decidedly British, which is fine. Nice place.

Laslty, you are aware its what I say when I want to irritate more than anything else. I don't refer to myself as such on a regular or even social basis... jesus.

Integration fails because (a) people aren't allowed to integrate or (b) because the new-comers don't want to integrate. I don't know which is to blame for the increasingly segregated areas of the UK.

Both.

mattsaw

To some extent yes to some extent no. People seem to make out that immigrants are a new concept to the UK, but we have been welcoming Jews, Irish, West Indians, Africans and Indians for hundreds of years. Recently Eastern Europeans and Muslims seem to be grabbing all of the headlines, but 200 years ago it would have been the Jews, 100 years ago the Irish - there are always periods of instability before integration.

You have to weigh-up if we, as a country are better-off for the immigration. Peronally I think so, for every murderer, rapist and benefit cheat that grabs the headlines there are dozens of doctors, accountants, lawyers and businessmen generating millions for the enonomy.

Having said all of that, I do think we need a stronger national identity, if only to take back the flag of St George and the Union Jack from the far-right groups that have hijacked it. Too often patriotism is equated with racism, that shouldn't be the case.

cee

My thinking on this is all over the place....

Aside from philisophical considerations about what multiculturalism is, or what its objectives are/should be.....

Ask 100 Scots what their nationality is. I would bet money or hobnobs that majority would say Scottish.

Ask 100 welsh people...I suggest again majority would be Welsh.

100 Irish, again, Irish

100 English again English.

If Britain does not have a strong common national identity even amongst it member countries.....

how on earth does anyone expect some strong national identity to suddenly come into play, when cultures from outwith the member countries choose to live here.

I do think the multicuturalism thing is a red herring. To me it speaks solely about Islam in the UK, and the boundaries where some people's beliefs are incompatible with the majority of other peoples beliefs in the UK.

This isn't about multiculturalism, as no-one is talking about the Italians/Poles/French/Spanish/Australians etc that have been migrating here over the last 50 years!

W1

Mattsaw wrote:

Having said all of that, I do think we need a stronger national identity, if only to take back the flag of St George and the Union Jack from the far-right groups that have hijacked it. Too often patriotism is equated with racism, that shouldn't be the case.

+1 - couldn't agree more.

rjsterry

DonDaddyD wrote:

Tonymufc wrote:

I think ideally the thought of many cultural and ethnical (not sure thats a word) backgrounds that collectively call themselves British whilst still recognising their heritage. However I'm not convinced either that this has happened. My wifes parents are Greek Cypriot. Now whilst my wife and all her siblings were born in this country she refers to herself as being Greek not British. I've asked her many many times why this is. Her response I found quite a shock when she first said it. The reason is "because I don't look British, and people have always asked me what country I'm from". So my next question was, "well what does a British person look like"?

Not sure if I'm off the mark on this one.

Good point. Because I'm a cantankerous bastard I use the same thing on Ms DDD. I will die before I refer to myself as British. British Citizen of African and Caribbean descent is my usual go to description. Why, course of life.

However go a few generation down, so my Brother (12yrs younger than me) and possibly mine or his Kids and they'll likely just refer to themselves as British but then Britian (society) has treated them differently. Referred to them differently. But telling people multicultrualism has failed isn't a way of integrating cultures togethers.

I wonder what's next clearly defined class structure. Oh boy....

Well, that's rather sad, don't you think? What's so bad about being British? It's not as though being British and being Carribean/African are mutually exclusive, especially on a cultural level. Apart from being a bit of a mouthful, the latter description is inextricably linked to the former, and as we're talking about shared cultural values surely there are more shared cultural traits between the Carribean and the UK than differences?

The other point to make is that whatever set of values one can group together as being British, it's unlikely that any Briton will espouse all or even most of those values - it's not necessary to collect the whole set to become a member.

Saying multiculturalism has failed suggests that the whole thing was some carefully thought out plan, which has gone wrong. There are obviously problems with people from whatever background not feeling like they belong to the country they have grown up in, but given the history of the UK, I'm not sure forcing 3rd or 4th generation British Asians to be more British is an answer to terrorism*. Quite apart from the question of how the hell would you do that and what the hell is more British, I'm fairly sure the idea that killing people is wrong is actually quite a universal value throughout the world.

As that seems to be the specific issue Cameron was referring to.

pastey_boy

no one ever talks about the different levels of racism. people of asian origin are universally the most hated then you have immigrants, afro/blacks seem to have been accepted for the most part. just sit in an average works canteen and listen to your run of the mill working class bloke, paki,s muslims and asylum seekers are the most hated. im mixed race and grew up in a totally white enviroment so my co workers never saw me as coloured so i got to hear a first hand the ramblings of the disgruntled working class white man, one bloke said that if his daughter ever came home with a paki he would disown her, never heard that said against any other race. during the 70,s and 80,s i grew up with the army as my step dad served and blacks came in for a hard time back then but things have improved significantly since then. there is deep rooted racism running through the heart of this country regardless of what we are told so how can there ever be any real integration ? all i see is enforced toleration.

W1

DonDaddyD wrote:

W1 wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

I will die before I refer to myself as British. British Citizen of African and Caribbean descent is my usual go to description.

Is this not indicative of the failure of multiculturalism (whatever that is)? I am presuming that you were born here, enjoyed the benefits of growing up and living here, and now work, live and want to bring up a family here yet you'd rather die than announce (let alone be proud) of the fact that you are British? You'd rather expressly state your relatives' nationality than your own?

"Walk a mile in my shoes and find out how the World treats me"

Why should I be afraid to decidedly point out that I am a British citizen of a particular racial decent, which I'm proud of? In the course of my life when people have been ready to remind me of it they haven't hesitated.

I don't think it makes me any less British, just perhaps a British you aren't entirely familar with. It also doesn't make me any less a functioning part of British society.

And given the history of that particular race and loss of cultural identity (for a time) I think its important to acknowledge that.

Of course, I don't expect my kids to feel the same way. They'll probably be quite decidedly British, which is fine. Nice place.

Laslty, you are aware its what I say when I want to irritate more than anything else. I don't refer to myself as such on a regular or even social basis... jesus.

By distinuishing yourself from "British" you're expressly saying that you are less "british" than someone who doesn't include their decent too. I could, I suppose, add my parents and granparents countires of origin but I'm not sure why I would because fundamentally I'm proud to be British and enjoy the benefits of being here. If you have to mark yourself out as different, that speaks volumes for how you see yourself and how you want others to see you ("you" in the plural sense).

Were you born here? It was a presumption I made but I don't know whether it is correct. I think that makes a difference to how one might feel about a country.

warthog562

hey guys question for ddd thats a bit out of left field, did you go out in camden for halloween and run into three drunken idiots dressed in white disposable overalls (sort of like CSI)?

seem to remember running into a guy who sounds like it could be you and he had an irish wife/partner/girlfriend and joking that someone in harlesden pointed out we look like the kkk or some similer rubbish, as we were very drunk. ( one of the guys had just split up with a fiancee?)