Let's have it: Has multiculturalism failed?

green thing

< At one end of the spectrum you have the EDL at the other, extreme islamists. Most of the general population is somewhere in the middle >

If you had a statistical scatter plot of the population, they'd be outliers and would be disregarded.....

The huge majority of people get along fine but, especially since majority internet uptake, those who shout loudest and stamp their feet are heard. These are then seized on by the certain newspapers that seem to have an "anti-immigrant" agenda........you know which ones!

rjsterry

Actually, FWIW, I think EDL and Islamic extremism are pretty much at the same end of the spectrum - they've more similarities than either would like to admit.

ETA: Or any other form of extremist for that matter. Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism as well as various left and right political groups have their extremists as well. It is not an exclusively Islamic issue or even religious issue (before we get the usual 'religion causes wars nonsense').

snailracer

British society has many and varied components - a foreigner wouldn't know who to integrate with: a toff in his mansion or sink estate ASBO trash?

Agent57

I must admit to some sympathy with DDD. I've never really "felt British" either, despite having an English mother (who's English as far back as I know of, but maybe Irish a bit further back), and having been born in England.

Dunno, really. I mean, I support England in rugby, or football, or cricket (or West Indies as my second cricket team); and GBR in, say, athletics. But beyond that, I don't feel any particular... "thing" that strikes me as feeling English or British.

I do describe myself as British on forms that ask for nationality though.

EKE_38BPM

As has been pointed out earlier, Britain has influxes of immigrants periodically. Some groups integrate more than others. Many have exclaves (or ghettos if you wish) where they know they can get food that reminds them of home, their beauty needs catered for etc.
Some groups make a more noticable change to the culture than others.

As far as I'm concerned, as long as everybody is open-minded enough to be tolerant of other group's customs and needs we can (and for the most part, do) just muddle along.

Quick example of multi-cultural Britain in action:
I worked at a place that had a Isreali Jew departmental manager and one of the members of his department was a Arab Muslim. They got on fine as colleagues, not best mates or anything, but an OK professional relationship.
Devout Muslims pray five times a day so Muslim guy needed to pray at least once during normal office hours.
The Jewish manager would go out for his lunch at a certain time everyday so that his office would be free for the Muslim guy to have somewhere private to pray.
If those two could find a way to make it work, it should be feasible for the rest of us.

DonDaddyD

W1 wrote:

[

By distinuishing yourself from "British" you're expressly saying that you are less "british" than someone who doesn't include their decent too.

I could, I suppose, add my parents and granparents countires of origin but I'm not sure why I would because fundamentally I'm proud to be British and enjoy the benefits of being here. If you have to mark yourself out as different, that speaks volumes for how you see yourself and how you want others to see you ("you" in the plural sense).

Were you born here? It was a presumption I made but I don't know whether it is correct. I think that makes a difference to how one might feel about a country.

Your singular perspective of life cannot account or encompass an understanding of all the cultural identities of everyone.

I am both proud to be born here and proud of my ancestry. Both, as per the course my life has led, I choose to acknowledge equally.

My belief and self identity doesn't require you - or anyone for that matter - to share the same view.

Well, that's rather sad, don't you think? What's so bad about being British? It's not as though being British and being Carribean/African are mutually exclusive, especially on a cultural level. Apart from being a bit of a mouthful, the latter description is inextricably linked to the former, and as we're talking about shared cultural values surely there are more shared cultural traits between the Carribean and the UK than differences?

Mr Sterry, you are aware that I said it's something I say to Ms DDD when I want to be cantankerous.

Still, I'm proud of being both. That said I firmly believe that there is a British black culture as there is a British asian culture ad infinitum... clumped together it forms collectively British culture and/or the society I live in.

---

All that said re. Islam, I cannot help think that a lot of the issues were/are rooted in a lack of understanding and a lack or unwillingness to acknowledge the cultural differences.

Having had some really close 'British Muslim' friends, many of their issues was that they were made to feel that their customs and belifes weren't understood and therefore cheapened. In their eyes it seemed like they either had to be British (absolutely) or outsiders. Funny that.

Tonymufc

DonDaddyD wrote:

W1 wrote:

[

By distinuishing yourself from "British" you're expressly saying that you are less "british" than someone who doesn't include their decent too.

I could, I suppose, add my parents and granparents countires of origin but I'm not sure why I would because fundamentally I'm proud to be British and enjoy the benefits of being here. If you have to mark yourself out as different, that speaks volumes for how you see yourself and how you want others to see you ("you" in the plural sense).

Were you born here? It was a presumption I made but I don't know whether it is correct. I think that makes a difference to how one might feel about a country.

Your singular perspective of life cannot account or encompass an understanding of all the cultural identities of everyone.

I am both proud to be born here and proud of my ancestry. Both, as per the course my life has led, I choose to acknowledge equally.

My belief and self identity doesn't require you - or anyone for that matter - to share the same view.

Well, that's rather sad, don't you think? What's so bad about being British? It's not as though being British and being Carribean/African are mutually exclusive, especially on a cultural level. Apart from being a bit of a mouthful, the latter description is inextricably linked to the former, and as we're talking about shared cultural values surely there are more shared cultural traits between the Carribean and the UK than differences?

Mr Sterry, you are aware that I said it's something I say to Ms DDD when I want to be cantankerous.

Still, I'm proud of being both. That said I firmly believe that there is a British black culture as there is a British asian culture ad infinitum... clumped together it forms collectively British culture and/or the society I live in.

Point well made.

bdu98252

David Camerons point is a fair one. If you move to a foreign country then you live by the rules of that country or at least you have the good grace to look like you do. I have no problem with a group of people combining together and forming a movement or a society. This may be a religion, sports club or any other shared internest. Where I take issue is with state money being used to fund minority groups with exclusive and not inclusive agendas.

If the BNP are not allowed to exclude people then why should any other group be allowed to exclude things. I went to a school with 1 black person and 1 chinese person and no one picked on them as it was just bullying. Put a group against a group and then let group think prevail.

I agree with the when in rome previous post.

deptfordmarmoset

If you picture the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister side by side, Cleggeron and Cameregg - you only have to do it for a second - you might be tempted to agree that multiculturalism has failed. Because to me, they embody the very opposite of diversity and multiculturalism.

Now, I've had a very quiet day, so quiet that I can remember all the people I've spoken to today. I've spoken to my Swiss mother, my mixed-race daughter (half-Antiguan), then I went to the High Street, bumped into a West Indian woman (not too good on the accents, but probably another ''small islander'') who was trying to give directions for the nearest DLR to a young man of Chinese descent, and once we'd agreed on the simplest way to the station, I went to buy some beer and got a 50p discount from the Indian serving me (in recognition of my loyal custom...).

Nothing in my quiet everyday London day makes me think that multiculturalism has failed.

EKE_38BPM

deptfordmarmoset wrote:

Nothing in my quiet everyday London day makes me think that multiculturalism has failed.

+1

A typical day in London is a living example of the multi-culture in action.

graeme_s-2

i remember reading an article 4 or 5 years ago that had a load of stats about the people who live in Britain. In summary the article said that Britain today is the most multicultural society that has ever existed at any time or in any place in history. It's not perfect, and there will be challenges, but i think that's something to be incredibly proud of and enjoy at every opportunity.

rjsterry

DonDaddyD wrote:

Mr Sterry, you are aware that I said it's something I say to Ms DDD when I want to be cantankerous.

Still, I'm proud of being both. That said I firmly believe that there is a British black culture as there is a British asian culture ad infinitum... clumped together it forms collectively British culture and/or the society I live in.

---

All that said re. Islam, I cannot help think that a lot of the issues were/are rooted in a lack of understanding and a lack or unwillingness to acknowledge the cultural differences.

Having had some really close 'British Muslim' friends, many of their issues was that they were made to feel that their customs and belifes weren't understood and therefore cheapened. In their eyes it seemed like they either had to be British (absolutely) or outsiders. Funny that.

Yes, reading your post back after, I've probably read too much into your comment, so some of what I said has missed your point - indeed, we seem to agree that 'British' can include or be complemented by other identities.

The issue of being proud of one's heritage is a funny one. I have a friend who is Belgian, but went to school at an international school in Brussels, then lived in the US for a while. The idea of being proud of one's nationality seems pointless to her, as it's just an accident of birth - normally one is proud of things that one has achieved one's self. It's a bit like being proud of having curly hair or green eyes. By the same token, nationality isn't something one needs to be ashamed about either. Whilst I'm not sure I entirely agree with my friend on this, I think she has a point. I think it's a bit odd when people researching their family tree actively wanting to find a foreign ancestor rather than just being English all the way back.

Lastly, anyone got any idea what things they could include in a list of specifically British values? Lots of people talk about them as though they are self-evident, but I think most would be hard pushed to name anything substantial.

roger_merriman

On the whole I think people get worked up far too much about this sort of thing, plus the uk is by a massive margin white. other groups are really very tiny in numbers, though granted you do get clusters.

the heritage thing can be a bit odd much like the irish americans. my heritage has a fair mix of celtic and anglo/saxon blood. I could just as much claim to be irish, Scottish, french or english. But I feel Welsh as that is where I was born and grew up. and seems to be oddly the one bit of northern europe I don't have any blood from.

mudcow007

this maybe me being really dumb (well i havent long woken up to be honest) but whats the difference in "British" and "English"?

i really really dont mind anyone from different parts of the world coming to the UK, as i believe it brings in lots of new culture, experiences etc etc but what i don't agree with is that the UK has to change to accomodate the people coming in. take for instance Christmas, at my nephews school they were not allowed a nativity play as it was thought it "could" upset children from a non christian background

i was in bahrain a few months ago, and if im honest the constant loud prayers coming from the speakers from the towers around the place was a bit annoying. could you see them turning them off as it upset me? i doubt it

W1

DonDaddyD wrote:

Your singular perspective of life cannot account or encompass an understanding of all the cultural identities of everyone.

I'm not intending it to - that's the point of discussion. Equally, of course, neither can yours.

snailracer

Graeme_S wrote:

i remember reading an article 4 or 5 years ago that had a load of stats about the people who live in Britain. In summary the article said that Britain today is the most multicultural society that has ever existed at any time or in any place in history. It's not perfect, and there will be challenges, but i think that's something to be incredibly proud of and enjoy at every opportunity.

I think a lot of Brazilians might disagree about that. But 2nd place is still pretty good

daviesee

mudcow007 wrote:

this maybe me being really dumb (well i havent long woken up to be honest) but whats the difference in "British" and "English"?

Any Scots, Irish or Welsh person could answer that question, and I would assume most English.

You sir, are being dumb. :roll:

bloomboy

English are British and Scottish are Scottish

cee

Also, Ask the Spanish how well integrated the majority of expat british living in spain are with the native culture...

there are enclaves of british folk living together in little blackpool with sunshine, with very little contact with real spanish people, apart from where necessary.

A whole industry has popped up just to cater for the British expat in Spain, with british tradesman being preferred to spanish.

Language barrier? certainly. When I lived in Spain, there were british expats who had been there for 10+ years, whose grasp of Spanish was literally ordering a beer, and asking where the toilets are.

mudcow007

daviesee wrote:

Any Scots, Irish or Welsh person could answer that question, and I would assume most English.

You sir, are being dumb. :roll:

i am still half a sleep you know......

ha! just realised how stupid a question that is sorry

Sewinman

I think what DC really meant to say was Islamic groups have failed, we should no longer fund them, cozy up to them or tolerate their lack of condemnation for terrorism and other various beliefs that run counter to western/christian ethics. It is not a particularly controversial view - he should have chosen less headline grabbing language and a better time to say it.

daviesee

Multiculturism has not failed.

Being over tolerant of ANY (left, right, religious or ethnic) extreme views for fear of offending has.
Trouble is, where do you draw the line?
What I think is extreme is very likely different to yours. The extreme extremities (? :? ) we will all agree on but there will be grey areas that are harder to define.

What is "normal" ?

Agent57

mudcow007 wrote:

what i don't agree with is that the UK has to change to accomodate the people coming in. take for instance Christmas, at my nephews school they were not allowed a nativity play as it was thought it "could" upset children from a non christian background

Yeah, that sort of crap pisses me off.

rick_chasey

MonkeyMonster wrote:

I think what he's meaning is that the definition of multiculturism shouldn't be self disiplining enclaves - which is what we have now, small areas of britain that are now effectively running like back 'ome - wherever that may have been. He's wanting people here to believe what they want, behave within reason to their values etc but to realise they are over in britain - it is NOT perfectly fine to do what they used to do at home over here.

When in Rome, does as the romans do. Not when in Rome, ostracise/be rude/agressive anyone of different religion and think its pefectly fine to batter the crap out of your sister because she went out with "a white guy" because you'd be perfectly allowed to do so where you at "home". Okay so I picked an incident that was recently reported on but it remains a valid point.

If you come here to live its expected that you will live with british values - we aren't a refugee camp where you can live as you did at home with all the benefits of our support structure.

Surely?

I did a bit of research into this when I was studying at University, and I found that every study ever done on modern non-white'ghettoisation' in Western cities pointed to 'white flight' as the main and ultimate cause of cultural ghettosation, rather than the other way around.

vorsprung

This thread is plumbing new depths in a complete lack of thought

Congratulations!

daviesee

vorsprung wrote:

This thread is plumbing new depths in a complete lack of thought

Congratulations!

Well done for adding so coherently to the debate.

notsoblue

Rick Chasey wrote:

MonkeyMonster wrote:

I think what he's meaning is that the definition of multiculturism shouldn't be self disiplining enclaves - which is what we have now, small areas of britain that are now effectively running like back 'ome - wherever that may have been. He's wanting people here to believe what they want, behave within reason to their values etc but to realise they are over in britain - it is NOT perfectly fine to do what they used to do at home over here.

When in Rome, does as the romans do. Not when in Rome, ostracise/be rude/agressive anyone of different religion and think its pefectly fine to batter the crap out of your sister because she went out with "a white guy" because you'd be perfectly allowed to do so where you at "home". Okay so I picked an incident that was recently reported on but it remains a valid point.

If you come here to live its expected that you will live with british values - we aren't a refugee camp where you can live as you did at home with all the benefits of our support structure.

Surely?

I did a bit of research into this when I was studying at University, and I found that every study ever done on modern non-white'ghettoisation' in Western cities pointed to 'white flight' as the main and ultimate cause of cultural ghettosation, rather than the other way around.

+1, There are a few books specifically about the history of the East End that cover this. Its quite interesting to see how communities change. This view is very common: "If you come here to live its expected that you will live with british values - we aren't a refugee camp where you can live as you did at home with all the benefits of our support structure." But really its not as simple as that.

The Rookie

My reading of the alleged failure, is that some of the efforts made to allow everyone to keep their 'ethnic culture' (for want of an easier expression) has ended up being more divisive between said cultures rather than pushing everyone towards a central (but evolving) British culture that embraces the cultural differences. Something I happen to agree with.

Example, I work with a second generation "Pakistani", Both parents are first gen', when England play Pakistan at cricket, he supports Pakistan (in a very partisan manner I have to say), something says to me that something has gone wrong in that he doesn't support England, that is the place he was born, the place he was brought up, educated and works. Whatever the reasons for him supporting Pakistan over England, that, to me, is a failure of the 'multicultural society', the reasons and responsibilities for that failing are complex and I don't claim to know the reasons/answers, similarily the fact DDD feels 'unable' to call himself British is, to me, a similar failing, be that a fault of his, his parents, or the many facets of the society that surrounded and still surround him (and its a complex argument for sure), I see it as a failing.

You don't see the same in the US (for all its other and obvious faults over the years) which is arguably the biggest mutli-cultural society with no one country dominating its cultural make up since 1776.

Simon

bails87

I think the media has a massive part to play in the perception of a 'failed' multicultural society.

There was a survey out last week that showed that Britons were the most anxious about migrants, were more likely than all of the other countries (North America and Western & Northern Europe I think) to say that there should be less migrants (59% said there were too many), by a long, long way.

23% believed that migration was the biggest problem facing Britain, 10% higher than any other country, despite the fact that out of the 7 other countries surveyed, 5 had a greater proportion of foreign people in their populations than we do.

The British were also the most likely to say that immigrants took jobs from native-born workers

According to the people who conducted the survey, it shows "that the more one is exposed to immigrants, the more one feels positively toward them."

So if the people who actually have contact with migrants are, on the whole, positive about them, how are the 'haterz' forming their opinions?

I'd say it's the tabloid gutter rags that make money off whipping up public anger against migrants by painting them all as people who come here to steal your job whilst simultaneously claiming benefits and eating swans. They just keep pulling sh1t. Like. This.

And it's annoying, because you get people living in areas with very low migration who are scared stiff of Albanians stealing their wife.

tailwindhome

vorsprung wrote:

This thread is plumbing new depths in a complete lack of thought

Congratulations!

It's because they've all got head injuries.

They weren't wearing their helmets.