Helmets worth the weight in gold

largephil

Northwind wrote:

Brain injuries in cycling are very rare after all.

Depends how often you land on your head. Its not un-common to bash you lid when you have an off. My lid has knocks and scrapes all over it! I managed a 3 week concussion whilst wearing a helmet last year. Anyone whos ever felt dazed (to any degree) after a knock could be classed as having a type of brain injury, however mild. The front of the skull is quite tough and designed to take a few knocks, but I would not want to take a propper hit to the side, back or top of the head, especially with no lid. Brain injurys would be very common if people didnt wear helmets.

Northwind

That's the common assumption but the fact is, they're not proporitonally less common now than they were before helmets were commonplace, and in the borders and belford studies riders without helmets aren't as disproportionately represented in serious head injury stats as you'd assume, we're talking percentage points not orders of magnitude.

largephil

A small bash on the lid in an off is nothing but a scratched lid. Without the lid then its potentially a lot more serious. Mountain biking is much bigger and more extreme than it was in the time before helmets were common place. Also, its way easier to just get on a bike and hit the black runs at trail centres, without the need to be a skilled rider. There would be a lot more head injurys in the modern mtb world without helmets. Thats not based on any studdies, its just my opinion.

Northwind

largephil wrote:

A small bash on the lid in an off is nothing but a scratched lid. Without the lid then its potentially a lot more serious.

Not really... Helmets are all about damage mitigation. A small bash on a lid would almost always mean a small cut or bruise on the head, no more. If you walked away without a headache, you might have walked away with a headache but not with a fractured skull or haematoma or likely even a mild concussion. And so on. But if your helmet saved you from serious damage, you would be left with a fair amount of less serious injury, it doesn't take a skull-depressing blow and turn it into nothing.

Not to say they're useless, again, just to keep perspective. There will be people on here who've had serious injuries prevented or reduced by helmets, that's a fact... But as an opinion, that number will be massively lower than the number of people who think their helmet's prevented a serious injury.

But I don't ignore the value of having a minor injury prevented or reduced, it's the same with kneepads, it doesn't have to save you from a fractured skull to be worthwhile- just saving you from an unpleasant bump, a bit of nausea and a ruined ride if not a trip to hospital is still absolutely worth it. And you never know, one day I might be in that unfortunate tiny minority that does take a head hit where a helmet would have made a real difference and I'll be glad to have had it on. Hopefully it'll be the full face

largephil

My last serious off was at low speed (dislocated elbow) I had no idea I'd even bashed my lid at all. It was only when a mate of mine showed my my helmet later that I saw the deep sharp pointed dent right on the top of my lid. If that had hit my head (baring in mind that the top of the skull is weak) then I would have had a hole in my head without a doubt. Other crashes I have marked the side of my lid (rock to the temple is a show stopper also) If your going to land on a rock, even at relatively low speed, the head is not the place to land on. End of the day without a helmet its only luck as to how bad head injury would be, what you hit, how you hit, what part of the head, at what speed. I think that helmets prevent a lot more than your suggesting.

Northwind

largephil wrote:

My last serious off was at low speed (dislocated elbow) I had no idea I'd even bashed my lid at all. It was only when a mate of mine showed my my helmet later that I saw the deep sharp pointed dent right on the top of my lid. If that had hit my head (baring in mind that the top of the skull is weak) then I would have had a hole in my head without a doubt.

So you believe. Your skull is a lot tougher than your helmet (by design- helmets work by collapsing under impacts, skulls don't). You can put a dent in a cycle helmet with your thumbs, try that on your skull.

largephil

I believe that if a sharp rock can make a big deep dent in my lid, then it would also have cause a serious injury to my head, had I not been wearing a lid, yes!

cooldad

Northwind wrote:

largephil wrote:

My last serious off was at low speed (dislocated elbow) I had no idea I'd even bashed my lid at all. It was only when a mate of mine showed my my helmet later that I saw the deep sharp pointed dent right on the top of my lid. If that had hit my head (baring in mind that the top of the skull is weak) then I would have had a hole in my head without a doubt.

So you believe. Your skull is a lot tougher than your helmet (by design- helmets work by collapsing under impacts, skulls don't).

And absorbing the shock that would otherwise be taken by your rather rigid skull.
Stop being an idiot.

t0pc4t

Northwind wrote:

largephil wrote:

My last serious off was at low speed (dislocated elbow) I had no idea I'd even bashed my lid at all. It was only when a mate of mine showed my my helmet later that I saw the deep sharp pointed dent right on the top of my lid. If that had hit my head (baring in mind that the top of the skull is weak) then I would have had a hole in my head without a doubt.

So you believe. Your skull is a lot tougher than your helmet (by design- helmets work by collapsing under impacts, skulls don't).

they collapse to absorb the force, if they were rigid they would transmit said force to your brain

Northwind

t0pc4t wrote:

they collapse to absorb the force, if they were rigid they would transmit said force to your brain

I do believe I said that :? But largephil's belief that a stone put a hole in his helmet therefore it would have put a hole in his skull is nonsense, and I think anyone who stops to really think about it realises that's the case. XC helmets are effective against blunt force impacts, they're fairly ineffective against penetrator impacts. Whereas your head is the other way round.

As I said- the force needed to dent a helmet is small. The force needed to dent a skull is high.

largephil

Yes they absorbthe impact, obviously! But are you saying that a blow that is big enough to cause a large sharp dent in a lid, is not cabable of causing a serious head injurty? Particulally on the top of the skull where its weak? Also considering the fact that its a sharp dent? And your calling me an idiot!!!

largephil

Northwind wrote:

t0pc4t wrote:

they collapse to absorb the force, if they were rigid they would transmit said force to your brain

I do believe I said that :? But largephil's belief that a stone put a hole in his helmet therefore it would have put a hole in his skull is nonsense, and I think anyone who stops to really think about it realises that's the case.

A stone? shut up you muppet. I said it was a serious crash, low speed yes but a head plant onto sharp rocks all the same. Any blow by a sharp rock cabable of doing the damage that did to my lid, with 14 stone of body weight behind it yould have opened up my head like a water mellon without a helmet.

Northwind

largephil wrote:

Yes they absorbthe impact, obviously! But are you saying that a blow that is big enough to cause a large sharp dent in a lid, is not cabable of causing a serious head injurty? Particulally on the top of the skull where its weak? Also considering the fact that its a sharp dent? And your calling me an idiot!!!

Er, no, I'm not calling you an idiot. Though I'm starting to wonder, since you're imagining insults.

Your statement:

"I had no idea I'd even bashed my lid at all. It was only when a mate of mine showed my my helmet later that I saw the deep sharp pointed dent right on the top of my lid. If that had hit my head (baring in mind that the top of the skull is weak) then I would have had a hole in my head without a doubt."

Is false. Simple as that. You obviously believe it, and I can understand why, it doesn't make you an idiot- just wrong. The top of the skull is relatively weak but it's still orders of magnitude tougher than your helmet- the 2 operate in completely different ways. Helmets are soft protection, bone is hard protection, the response to impacts is completely different.

As I said- you can push a hole into a helmet with your thumbs. Try that with your skull. Don't worry, it won't hurt!

Oh, is a rock not a stone then? Jeezo. Calm down a bit, read what I'm posting, take a step back and see if you can come back into the conversation without just spluttering at me.

largephil

Would you like to head plant down a rock face onto a sharp rock with the top of your head without a lid and see what happens? I doubt it. The dent had gone through the plastic outer casing deep into the pollystyrene and theres no way I could do that with my thumbs You might think that would have just caused a small cut or something minor, I dont, its that simple. And dont worry, I'm calm, I just dont agree with you. 8)

Northwind

largephil wrote:

Any blow by a sharp rock cabable of doing the damage that did to my lid, with 14 stone of body weight behind it yould have opened up my head like a water mellon without a helmet.

Again, just for clarity- the force for a sharp object to go through your skull is higher than the force for a sharp object to go through your helmet. So, the fact that it didn't go right through your helmet (since you didn't feel it at the time) tells you for a fact that it was insufficient to go through your skull. QED.

Regular helmets don't protect well against sharp objects, it's not what they're designed for, and again it only takes a minute looking at one to see that this is the case.

Northwind

largephil wrote:

Would you like to head plant down a rock face onto a sharp rock with the top of your head without a lid and see what happens? I doubt it.

I don't really want to do it with a helmet either tbh, it sounds rubbish

I've no problem at all with the idea that it saved you injury- probably a nicely burst head, a bump the size of an egg, maybe a hospital trip and some stitches and a vicious headache. Posibly even a minor concussion though realistically, in this sort of crash you'd probably have felt it at the time if that was going to happen. It's when you go into hyperbole and claim it would have "opened your head like a watermelon" that it becomes a bit daft.

The point though is that even though it didn't save your head from being opened up like a watermelon, it's still a good idea to wear it and it still saved you from some grief. Sooner polystyrene than skin. Helmets don't have to be lifesaving to be worthwhile. My helmets have never saved my life but they've paid for themselves a dozen times over.

largephil

Northwind wrote:

[Regular helmets don't protect well against sharp objects, it's not what they're designed for, and again it only takes a minute looking at one to see that this is the case.

It was a xen and a total write off. The fact I didnt realise I'd even trashed my lid was mainly because my elbow was dislocated and fractured at the time.... kind of distracted me from anything else to be honest Also the fact I only had relatively minor bruising round my forehead from the crash is a tribute to the quality of the helmet, it did its job well (again) and I wont wear anything less. 8)

Anonymous

At this point I suggest a test is in order to prove it.

Go out with a helmet and hurl yourself at a big pointy rock. Then if you haven't got concussion, repeat without the helmet. If you report back here perfectly fine, helmets are obviously useless.

Northwind

We'll need a wider control group... Right, I need 100 volunteers. Must bring own pointy rock.

largephil

I know where theres a really nice pointy rock !!! We could all use the same one.

jt1984

LOL, those last few posts made me chuckle

My mate and I were at cannock once and there is a bit where there is a bit of north shore and at the end of it there is an option to go down some narrow planks instead of the usual wider stuff. We came across a fella whose front wheel had slipped off the plank and gone deep into the mud resulting in the poor guy going over the handlebars and face planting into the wood at the end.
He looked like he was going to have a real nice Harry Potter scar after that. We did what we could to help but it was a bad bleed. A helmet would have probably helped however I am not a scientist and decided not to re create the accident with the addition of a helmet to see if the same result occured. Although from my own experience and in my personal opinion It certainly would have helped prevent or reduce such a bad injury!

Iwingstein

Local chap hit by car last week taken to neurological unit. No helmet, may not have survived, details sketchy.

V sad for all concerned.

ATB

Simon

kevsgsi

I was knocked off my bike when i was young and me head hit the windscreen, helmet saved my tho, it was the first day i didnt hide it in the bush when i got around the corner!!
I have a nice Giro helmet now but they never seem to look right on me! See pics online and in the mags of riders with helmets on and they just look right. I know its not a fashion show but i can understand why people dont want to wear them.