Joe Friels Base miles...

airbusboy

Morning,

Reading through the bible Joe talks about endurance training and remaining in Z2 for 40% of the time. Well, What about the other 60% of the time? My confused understanding is go out cycling, average a z2 ride, but make sure are purely in Z2 for 40% of the time? ( 25-30mins on a 1hr ride).

http://www.trainingbible.com/joesblog/2 ... ining.html

Is this the right idea??

prawny

Does he not mean 40% of sessions at zone 2? Like 2 days out of 5?

Check my maths skillz 8)

jonmack

prawny wrote:

Check my maths skillz 8)

BOOM!

airbusboy

So for the other 60% of training sessions you ride in any zone?? Sorry, i'm inexperienced and confused....

prawny

sorry i'm in a similar position to you. Are there any work outs in the bible? Might have to have a read myself.

hugo15

My understanding it that 40% of your weekly training volume should be rides in zone 2. You should try to keep it in zone 2 as best you can for teh whole ride. That will mean backing off on the hills but you will need to work hard when the wind is behind you or you will find your HR drops out the bottom of the zone.

I started off reading Friel's Total Heart Rate Training and found it to be a good book. I then read his Cyclist Training Bible, which is much more in depth. Glad I did it this way. The heart rate training book is £7 on Amazon. Well worth the money IMHO.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1569 ... f_rd_p=467

This is my first year at following a structured base training plan. I'm really looking forward to the spring to head for the hills and see what difference it has made.

NACLpiel

Last winter I didn't put enough hours into the saddle over the winter (pretty harsh in the north of scotland so everything was done on the turbo) and found that this brought me to a peak a bit early and was stale for a lot of the summer.

this winter I'm structuring (roughly) around Friel's Cyclist training bible and emphasizing more base miles for January on some newly acquired Elite Parabolic Rollers. I don't have a power meter so guage efforts through combination of heart rater; gears; cadence ; and speed.

A question - yesterday evening I stuck around 136bpm (RPE around 10 - 12; felt like my aerobic zone) for 2 hours, never deviating for a 53/23 at 100rpm to see if I could 'couple' heart rate and power for 2 hours - which I managed to do. It was mentally very tough session to hold so constant.

Next day, I tried the exact same 53/23 and 100rpm and noted my heart rate was significantly lower - around 131.

What was going on and how should I have approached this subsequent session? Pushed bigger gears to get HR back to previous days 136 or pushed same 53/23 ignoring lower HR or done muscle endurance intervals to mimic cycling when tired?

Also, next week should I repeat the same 2 hour session but by pushing a bigger gear (and thus invoking a higher heart rate) with a view to eventually finding an effort level/HR where I'm unable to couple HR and POWER for 2 hours?

Intherain

Hi, I'm following this at the moment and and in week 2 of base 1. I think he just means z2 for 40% of the time - if its base miles then the remaining 60% should just be at an easier level for now. One big thing he goes on about in the cyclists training bible is too fast too soon.
I;ve had a good 7 year break from racing and so wanted to build up slowly. I've found this book a really good way of devising a structured approach to my training which is what I need to train properly. When I used to race i started the season with a 12 week base block and this just seems to be using the same principles.
I think just take it steady, build up to the harder rides once you have a decent base level of fitness and go from there.

Intherain

PS, to the guys using this training plan how many annual hours are you using? I have gone for 450 which seems manageable at the moment what with work commitments.

amaferanga

NACLpiel wrote:

Last winter I didn't put enough hours into the saddle over the winter (pretty harsh in the north of scotland so everything was done on the turbo) and found that this brought me to a peak a bit early and was stale for a lot of the summer.

this winter I'm structuring (roughly) around Friel's Cyclist training bible and emphasizing more base miles for January on some newly acquired Elite Parabolic Rollers. I don't have a power meter so guage efforts through combination of heart rater; gears; cadence ; and speed.

A question - yesterday evening I stuck around 136bpm (RPE around 10 - 12; felt like my aerobic zone) for 2 hours, never deviating for a 53/23 at 100rpm to see if I could 'couple' heart rate and power for 2 hours - which I managed to do. It was mentally very tough session to hold so constant.

Next day, I tried the exact same 53/23 and 100rpm and noted my heart rate was significantly lower - around 131.

What was going on and how should I have approached this subsequent session? Pushed bigger gears to get HR back to previous days 136 or pushed same 53/23 ignoring lower HR or done muscle endurance intervals to mimic cycling when tired?

Also, next week should I repeat the same 2 hour session but by pushing a bigger gear (and thus invoking a higher heart rate) with a view to eventually finding an effort level/HR where I'm unable to couple HR and POWER for 2 hours?

What do you mean by coupling HR to power?

Intherain

Its is to do with matching HR with Power - imagine 2 parallel lines on a graph, one line for HR other for Power so as power increases HR increases and vice versa, they follow each other. Friel talks about it in his book. No good for me as I do not have a power meter

NACLpiel

If my heart rate starts skyrocketing while holding the same effort on the pedals (what I've called Power) then I take it to mean my Heart Rate and Power are not 'coupled'.

I found last year that the aerobic stuff in a cold garage was too boring so I did loads of high quality turbo sessions (sufferfest's 'fightclub' especially) under an hour long.

this winter I'm trying to 'make friends' with the turbo/roller so allowing myself to 'enjoy' easier efforts as long as I put in the hours in the saddle. But I still feel somehow guilty for not ending each session with that endorphin high derived from high quality intervals - all in good time I suppose.

Am I right in interpreting the fact that my heart rate was lower the next day at the same pedal effort suggests that the easier long efforts the day before did cause some sort of physiological stress?

hugo15

NACLpiel wrote:

I
this winter I'm trying to 'make friends' with the turbo/roller so allowing myself to 'enjoy' easier efforts as long as I put in the hours in the saddle. But I still feel somehow guilty for not ending each session with that endorphin high derived from high quality intervals - all in good time I suppose.

Don't worry, I get exactly the same feeling that I should be working harder. I have to keep telling myself it's only January and there is plenty of time fo hard stuff in the coming months.

Intherain

hugo15 wrote:

NACLpiel wrote:

I
this winter I'm trying to 'make friends' with the turbo/roller so allowing myself to 'enjoy' easier efforts as long as I put in the hours in the saddle. But I still feel somehow guilty for not ending each session with that endorphin high derived from high quality intervals - all in good time I suppose.

Don't worry, I get exactly the same feeling that I should be working harder. I have to keep telling myself it's only January and there is plenty of time fo hard stuff in the coming months.

Me too! I am trying to keep my HR below 146 bpm which means that grannies on shopping bikes are tootling past. In the past I've been guilty of going too fast too soon and then just burning out so trying a different approach now.

What sort of hours are you putting in?

jibberjim

Intherain wrote:

just burning out so trying a different approach now.

Could you describe this burn out you experienced?

hugo15

Intherain wrote:

What sort of hours are you putting in?

I've been doing 4 to 6 hours a week depending on the weather. In weeks when I can get outside I been doing 3 x 1 hours turbo sessions then 3 hours on a Sunday. It's not a lot compared to some but is the best I can do to fit it round family and work stuff. The main thing is that I'm doing more than I normally would and it also has some structure.

I've been following a plan based on a combination of Friel's priciples and Pete Reed's Black Book. i'm dying to get out on my summer bike, head for the hills and see what a diffference it has made.

Garry H

NACLpiel wrote:

Am I right in interpreting the fact that my heart rate was lower the next day at the same pedal effort suggests that the easier long efforts the day before did cause some sort of physiological stress?

Maybe, but not necessarily. Lots of other variables can affect HR, eg food intake, caffeine intake, levels of tiredness, hydration, temperature, and so on...

amaferanga

Intherain wrote:

Its is to do with matching HR with Power - imagine 2 parallel lines on a graph, one line for HR other for Power so as power increases HR increases and vice versa, they follow each other. Friel talks about it in his book. No good for me as I do not have a power meter

I can imagine 2 lines that on any given day will have quite a different relationship. If they didn't then people wouldn't be wasting several hundred pounds on expensive power measuring systems. So unless you can measure power then I'd say you're wasting your time even thinking about it.

amaferanga

NACLpiel wrote:

If my heart rate starts skyrocketing while holding the same effort on the pedals (what I've called Power) then I take it to mean my Heart Rate and Power are not 'coupled'.

I don't get it. So you're pedalling away at a fixed 'power' then suddenly your HR starts sky-rocketing? HR will usually drift by several beats over a (say) 20 minute interval, but if you really are riding at a fixed power then it shouldn't suddenly sky-rocket.

What does this coupling between HR and power actually tell you anyway? What do you do differently if you believe they're no longer coupled?

airbusboy

Many thanks for the replies.

PS, to the guys using this training plan how many annual hours are you using? I have gone for 450 which seems manageable at the moment what with work commitments

450hrs :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: when do you hope to achieve all that by?!!!! Shizzle!


If the importance is to remain within a Z2 HR is it best to ride flat routes, saving the hills for a later stage of training?

Intherain

airbusboy wrote:

Many thanks for the replies.

PS, to the guys using this training plan how many annual hours are you using? I have gone for 450 which seems manageable at the moment what with work commitments

450hrs :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: when do you hope to achieve all that by?!!!! Shizzle!


If the importance is to remain within a Z2 HR is it best to ride flat routes, saving the hills for a later stage of training?

450 hrs works out at 9-10 hrs per week roughly factoring in few weeks off. If you do a 3hr sunday ride and 2 hr saturday ride then thats a huge chunk of the weeks riding done! I didnt think its that much to do to be competitive in 3rd cat road races?

Intherain

jibberjim wrote:

Intherain wrote:

just burning out so trying a different approach now.

Could you describe this burn out you experienced?

Just being knackered.
I just had a hit and miss approach to training and so start doing z3+4 work when i wasnt ready, not be able to ride as hard as I wanted/used to do and get annoyed. Then stop riding for 2 weeks. Then try again. Stupid really as I realise now I had no base to build on and that I need to have at least a 12 week base building block on which to base the higher intensity stuff.

Intherain

Intherain wrote:

airbusboy wrote:

Many thanks for the replies.

PS, to the guys using this training plan how many annual hours are you using? I have gone for 450 which seems manageable at the moment what with work commitments

450hrs :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: when do you hope to achieve all that by?!!!! Shizzle!


If the importance is to remain within a Z2 HR is it best to ride flat routes, saving the hills for a later stage of training?

450 hrs works out at 9-10 hrs per week roughly factoring in few weeks off. If you do a 3hr sunday ride and 2 hr saturday ride then thats a huge chunk of the weeks riding done! I didnt think its that much to do to be competitive in 3rd cat road races?

oh, thats over a YEAR btw not for the base period lol!!!!!

jibberjim

Intherain wrote:

jibberjim wrote:

Intherain wrote:

just burning out so trying a different approach now.

Could you describe this burn out you experienced?

Just being knackered.
I just had a hit and miss approach to training and so start doing z3+4 work when i wasnt ready, not be able to ride as hard as I wanted/used to do and get annoyed. Then stop riding for 2 weeks. Then try again. Stupid really as I realise now I had no base to build on and that I need to have at least a 12 week base building block on which to base the higher intensity stuff.

So you weren't "burnt out" you were simply demotivated - you could've ridden, you just didn't want to. Which obviously leads to a spiral.

Intherain

A mix jibber. I would either be too tired to train. Or not motivated. Or have something else on like staying in a warm bed on a Sunday morning instead of freezing my ass off
Another of Friel's 'commandments' is to ride frequently which I guess means prioritising riding over staying in and watching TV. Which is what I'm trying really hard to do this year!

airbusboy

450hrs over a year sounds better.... i assumed you meant jan-feb/march and thought christ that's a minimum of 5hrs a day!! My current plan is 1500-2000miles by the end of march minimum; its going to be a struggle.

I feel fine but still suffer the issue of staying in bed till 12:00 and then thinking SH*T only 4hrs of daylight remaining. I recommend a good few mugs of tea.

mclarent

You're both welcome to ride in any race I'm doing this year. I will destroy you.

Now if that's not motivation...

airbusboy

I would challenge thee to a duel but without doubt you'd beat me. probably........

BTW i don't have motivations problems, merely a very warm comfy bed.

Paul RS

amaferanga wrote:

NACLpiel wrote:

If my heart rate starts skyrocketing while holding the same effort on the pedals (what I've called Power) then I take it to mean my Heart Rate and Power are not 'coupled'.

I don't get it. So you're pedalling away at a fixed 'power' then suddenly your HR starts sky-rocketing? HR will usually drift by several beats over a (say) 20 minute interval, but if you really are riding at a fixed power then it shouldn't suddenly sky-rocket.

What does this coupling between HR and power actually tell you anyway? What do you do differently if you believe they're no longer coupled?

i suspect the 'sky rocketing' comment has confused things here.

Not wanting to preach to the converted, a coupled output can be judged by this: On a turbo only btw, choose a HR, ( i do 140) Resistance, ( i do 53x17, setting 2 on my turbo) Cadence ( i do 90rpm) These must stay consistent and repeatable. This works for those without a megabucks power meter..
Warm up, steady, easy gradual, not sprinting to get hot n sweaty..once warm, get into the right gear, get your hr to 140, Cadence to 90 then reset the lap counter, do 10 mins at the settings, so for 10 mins your average hr is (140), cadence (90). reset lap and do 2hrs at the same output. Now reset lap and repeat the first test, but only keeping to the cadence (90) and same resistance, which should not have been adjusted anyway. After the 10 mins, stop the timer, and check average hr for those final 10 minutes.

The result will be higher, of course, but how much higher? Some maths which i can add if required converts the difference between the 2 10 minutes sessions to a percentage. Below 5% 'drift' indicates adequate base form for building on.

It's a good indicator of system efficiency..

Old Tuggo

amaferanga wrote:

NACLpiel wrote:

If my heart rate starts skyrocketing while holding the same effort on the pedals (what I've called Power) then I take it to mean my Heart Rate and Power are not 'coupled'.

I don't get it. So you're pedalling away at a fixed 'power' then suddenly your HR starts sky-rocketing? HR will usually drift by several beats over a (say) 20 minute interval, but if you really are riding at a fixed power then it shouldn't suddenly sky-rocket.

What does this coupling between HR and power actually tell you anyway? What do you do differently if you believe they're no longer coupled?

I regularly do fixed power training on a turbo. If I ride at steady 180 watts (not sure of the accuracy) and 94 rpm for 15 mins my heart rate gradually increases from 120 to 160 (94% MHR). I cannot see how you can have them in parallel.

LJAR

amaferanga wrote:

What does this coupling between HR and power actually tell you anyway? What do you do differently if you believe they're no longer coupled?

"Coupling" refers to how your heart rate changes for a fixed power output over a long period of time.

Eg 2 hours at 200 watts

First hour HR = 150

Second Hour HR = 165

this indicates a slight "decoupling" (10%) as your HR for the same power was higher in the 2nd hour.

If you have low decoupling or no decoupling in a long tempo ride this indicates you have built a good aerobic base.